House to reconsider 2012 light bulb ban

[fskimospy]

Sure AC has a benefit, but what about the people in Texas who have it set to 70? Why do they need it that low? They can't get the same benefit by setting it to 78? Would probably have a MASSIVE effect on electrical usage. WAY more than lightbulbs which are generally used at night when there is less demand.

Same with computers. Do people who surf the web need a 4ghz processor? Is it faster to surf the web at 4ghz than 2ghz? Why not mandate any processor over a certain power requirement be phased out? Why do people need Quad or Six core processors for surfing the web?

But seriously. How many people in here posting about the benefits of CFL's probably waste WAY more energy than that leaving their laptops on or setting their AC low, or running any of their 10 million other gadgets? Or for that matter, taking a long shower, or leaving the water running while brushing their teeth? Singling out light bulbs is absurd with the amount of power we use and I bet every single one of the sanctimonious assholes in this thread saying this should be mandated probably waste as much or more than the average American but they sure feel good about forcing others to do something that has almost no impact on our rate of electricity growth.

So you're saying because we waste energy in some ways that we shouldn't try to conserve it in others. That's a terrible argument.

Approximately 12% of US electricity use is for lighting. Making it more efficient would most certainly have an impact on our rate of electricity growth.

 

[Fear No Evil]

So you're saying because we waste energy in some ways that we shouldn't try to conserve it in others. That's a terrible argument.

Approximately 12% of US electricity use is for lighting. Making it more efficient would most certainly have an impact on our rate of electricity growth.

I'm saying forcing others to use a product they don't necessarily want or need while wasting electricity themselves makes most people who support this hypocrites.

I wonder how much of that 12% is residential lighting vs. commercial.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm saying forcing others to use a product they don't necessarily want or need while wasting electricity themselves makes most people who support this hypocrites.

I wonder how much of that 12% is residential lighting vs. commercial.

First of all, what? The products you mentioned all had benefits to the consumer, and you do not need to support every single way in which we could save electricity in order to be in favor of one way. Jesus.

Second of all, the merits of this legislation have nothing to do with whether or not the people behind it are hypocrites are not. Literally nothing. You're just resorting to ad homenium attacks and flailing misdirection because you know you need to defend the right wing position on this, but you don't know of any good way to do it. (because its indefensible)

 

[ShawnD1]

I wonder how much of that 12% is residential lighting vs. commercial.

Mostly bid'ness lighting. Right now none of us are home and all of the lights are off at home. Here at work the fluorescent tube lights are in pairs and I can see at least 20 pairs without leaving my cage cubicle.

A lot of it is also street lights. Those big jesus fuck sodium lamps take a lot of power and there are thousands of them running all night long. Some brainiac thought it was a good idea to cycle them in sets, so there are blocks of road with absolutely no street lights. Safety fail.

 

[OutHouse]

Sorry Thraashman, but I think this is an appropriate response to him:

You're an ignorant ideologue.

coming from you that makes me smile.

 

[OutHouse]

Mostly bid'ness lighting. Right now none of us are home and all of the lights are off at home. Here at work the fluorescent tube lights are in pairs and I can see at least 20 pairs without leaving my cage cubicle.

A lot of it is also street lights. Those big jesus fuck sodium lamps take a lot of power and there are thousands of them running all night long. Some brainiac thought it was a good idea to cycle them in sets, so there are blocks of road with absolutely no street lights. Safety fail.

and factor in street lights, parking lot lights. the big bright as fuck lights on a car dealers lot. Funny how the bill only addresses small lights we when we are at home for just a few hours at most, but does not touch the power sucking examples i listed which are on from dusk to dawn 24/7.

gubernment fucking over the people yet again.

Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, whichequires all general-purpose light bulbs that produce 310–2600 lumens of light[30] be 30% more energy efficient (similar to current halogen lamps) than current incandescent bulbs by 2012 to 2014. The efficiency standards will start with 100-watt bulbs in January 2012 and end with 40-watt bulbs in January 2014.

rLight bulbs outside of this range are exempt from the restrictions. Also exempt are several classes of specialty lights, including appliance lamps, rough service bulbs, 3-way, colored lamps, and plant lights.

 

[lighthouse10]

It is a BAN: All known - and New Incandescents - banned by 2020,
see the Energy Act 45 lumen per watt minimum specification, which incandescents simply can't meet, and which the profit-seeking CFL pushing manufacturers behind the ban would be unlikely to pursue anyway.


The supposed amount of ENERGY savings are also not there
(only c2% grid electricity savings, see the DOE etc data http://ceolas.net/#li171x ),
and even they were,
there are much better and more relevant energy savings in electricity
Generation and Grid Distribution as well as Consumption, as described.

 

[lighthouse10]

Moreover:
Consumers as a whole will hardly save MONEY – regardless of what the
energy savings are.

That is not just in having to pay more for the light bulbs as an
initial cost (or being forced to pay for them, via taxpayer CFL
programs)
- but also because electricity companies are being taxpayer subsidised
or allowed to raise Bill rates to compensate for any reduced
electricity use, as already seen both federally and in California,
Ohio etc, and before them in the UK and other European countries

 

[werepossum]

And you justify your statement by saying that you don't like changing bulbs? Could you be a bit more fair and actually read everything that that page has to offer?

I was mainly comparing one of the worst applications for CFLs, showing that CFLs were really not that much even there. Admittedly I didn't read everything on that site, and he makes some fair if overdrawn points about breakage and mercury contamination. But such a basic error as comparing only TCO whilst neglecting the vast difference in life span, where intentional or unintentional, disinclines me to read the rest.

CFL's are not the same. I have even replaced most of my bulbs with CFL's.. but I can't do all of them. I put one in the motion sensor light at the front of my house. I burnt through 3 of them before I went back to a normal bulb. In my bathrooms I have recessed lighting. I can't replace all the bulbs because it can take a minute or more before they get to full brightness. I tried replacing the recessed lights in my living room which are on a dimmer. They only got to a certain level of dimness then just shut off, they couldn't go down very low.

So how do you address my concerns? Buy newer/better bulbs for even more money? More mercury into the landfill as I throw my old ones out. Oh wait, I should bring them to a recycle center. How much does it cost to remove the mercury?

Again, I use CFL's where appropriate. They are not appropriate everywhere. And why is it the only fucking time liberals are pro-choice is when it comes to scraping a fetus out of a woman? Tired of this nanny state bullshit.

This is quite possibly the worst application for self-ballasted CFLs in my experience. For unconditioned spaces one needs amalgam-based fluorescent lamps for decent performance, and self-ballasted amalgam-based CFLs are vanishingly rare if even available. Combine that with a very short start cycle and high summer temps, and self-ballasted CFLs are a very bad choice here. I've also used halogens here, primarily for the lamp life, but I've never found halogens with yellow bug light coating either, so I've gone back to standard yellow A-lamp bug lights as the best available compromise. I'm not sure if specialty lamps like bug lights are being banned, but hopefully if so, a yellow bug light halogen will be offered as the CFLs are just terrible here.

 

[ShawnD1]

and factor in street lights, parking lot lights. the big bright as fuck lights on a car dealers lot. Funny how the bill only addresses small lights we when we are at home for just a few hours at most, but does not touch the power sucking examples i listed which are on from dusk to dawn 24/7.

gubernment fucking over the people yet again.

The government doesn't need to regulate those because they do a good job of self-regulating. My office doesn't randomly have fluorescent lights. Having those saves thousands of dollars per year. The office would also be unbearably hot if all of the lights were incandescent.
The lights in parking lots and car dealerships are high efficiency halogen lamps. While they do use an incredible amount of power to operate, they're still very efficient.

Legislating high efficiency residential lamps will have almost no effect on anything. The lights we use all the time are already tube or compact fluorescent. It's only lights in the closet and the spare bed room that still use low efficiency bulbs, and we don't use those on a regular basis, so this legislation is just stupid.

 

[thraashman]

Sorry Thraashman, but I think this is an appropriate response to him:

You're an ignorant ideologue.

This one I won't argue against. He used profanity, lack of capitalization, intentionally incorrect spelling, excessive punctuation. He posted in a childish fashion and I am perfectly ok with you responding in kind. My issue was with the attack against someone who didn't post in a childish fashion. There's no discussing with people who act childish in any way but also childish. But if someone voices an opinion in a reasonible way, even if you find the opinion itself unreasonible, then you should discuss opposing views properly. As I said, I feel you have the capability of brilliant insight but I also feel you choose to post in a fashion that makes no one listen to you. ProfJohn for example had a brief period in here of posting with some real insight from the political right before he returned to crazy rage and is unreadable. You don't want to be him do you?

I actually have nothing against you and many times find myself mostly in agreement with your politics, but find it hard to defend your arguments.

 

[rudder]

The last incandescent manufacturer in the U.S. has already shuttered operations. A little late now.

 

[Thump553]

News flash-after bringing this ridiculous publicity stunt of a bill (aka a message bill) the GOP leadership failed on the most elementary step-it was voted DOWN by the GOP controlled House.

Given their performance of the last year or so, and especially the last few weeks, I don't think Boehner is going to be around in the leadership much longer-nor will Elmer Fudd in the Senate.

 

[her209]

...

 

[Bowfinger]

[ ... ]
Given their performance of the last year or so, and especially the last few weeks, I don't think Boehner is going to be around in the leadership much longer-nor will Elmer Fudd in the Senate.

Agreed. It sounds like Congressional Republicans are quite unhappy with Boehner about the way he's handled the debt ceiling negotiations with Obama. Apparently they are appalled he's actually made some good faith efforts to find common ground rather than stubbornly digging in his heels like a two year old child.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Agreed. It sounds like Congressional Republicans are quite unhappy with Boehner about the way he's handled the debt ceiling negotiations with Obama. Apparently they are appalled he's actually made some good faith efforts to find common ground rather than stubbornly digging in his heels like a two year old child.

Like Obama?

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

Dis is Ah-mur-ica!!! If ah wunt mer,... merc,... mero,.... bad stuff in mah light maker, dats mah chawce!!

There's no mercury in incandescents, dumbass.

 

[fskimospy]

There's no mercury in incandescents, dumbass.

But there's most likely quite a bit of mercury coming from the extra power required by incandescents.

 

[ShawnD1]

But there's most likely quite a bit of mercury coming from the extra power required by incandescents.

Yes, because letting water flow through a dam somehow releases mercury. Sun shine and wind are also releasing mercury. And somehow mercury gets into the air when a bunch of uranium rods sit in water and never touch the air ever.

This is what 'murrika looks like in terms of electricity sources:

Notice how coal is less than half.

 

[werepossum]

There's no mercury in incandescents, dumbass.

Why in G-d's name would you respond to that post? You're better than that.

Hell, lice infested pocket lint is better than that.

 

[lokiju]

I really wish the lasting longer claims about CFL's were my experience.

I've gone through way more CFL's than I ever have with incandescents.

I have incandescents I've never replaced in the 4 years I've lived in my house but have CFL's that I've replaced a number of times.

The longest lasting CFL I've put in so far is the outside at the front door light that's made for outdoor use. I turn it on when it's dark and turn it off in the morning every night I'm there and it's been going strong for 3 years.

 

[kamikazekyle]

I really wish the lasting longer claims about CFL's were my experience.

I've gone through way more CFL's than I ever have with incandescents.

I have incandescents I've never replaced in the 4 years I've lived in my house but have CFL's that I've replaced a number of times.

The longest lasting CFL I've put in so far is the outside at the front door light that's made for outdoor use. I turn it on when it's dark and turn it off in the morning every night I'm there and it's been going strong for 3 years.

I've found it varies widly with bulb manufacturer. I bought some bulk Sanyo CFLs at Costco more than 5 years ago for not all that much, and have yet to replace one. They've survived two moves. They warm up in seconds and have a color temp very close to a GE Reveal incandescent. Some of the bulbs have survived for years in the bathroom with constant short on/off cycles and humidity. The GE Reveals they were replacing burnt out on average one every 2 months.

On the same vein, however, I got some cheapo Wallyworld CFLs that lost two in 3 months from ballast blowouts. My girlfriend had the same experience with her cheap CFLs. I also have an offbrand CFL floodlight I got from Walmart that takes bloody forever to warm up.

All in all, I'm pleased with my CFL transition. I still use incandesents in appropriate situations such as extreme temperatures, very short/infrequent rooms, and appliances.

 

[halik]

Someone should tell the government that I can choose whatever fuck kind of bulb I want for my own fucking home. I dont give a shit what bulb uses more power, I'm an adult and am more than capable of deciding which bulbs to outfit my home with.

Taxes are far better way to accomplish the goal of getting people onboard. If you like the warm tone of a regular bulb, pay little more to offset the negative externality.

 

[werepossum]

One small bump to this thread - I just received notification of yet another increase in lamp prices, this time with an explanation. (This is the tenth increase in the past four months, so . . .) I have quoted the letter, removing only the manufacturer's name.

Pending increases are real and they will stick so be prepared.

Earlier this year, the China Central Committee imposed new taxes on "Rare Earth" materials to help pay for local environmental site remediation, among other things. China also established future mining rules and regulations to control the demand rate of these rare earth materials. China sees rare earth materials as long term strategic importance for their future economy. This is similar to how other commodities and raw materials are controlled around the world.

China currently controls 95% of the world's supply of these rare earth materials. Two of these materials, Europium and Terbium are used to create the red (Europium) and green (Terbium) spectrum colors in the phosphor used in all florescent lamps. Both of these elements were impacted by the new price controls issued by the Chinese government.

Europium and Terbium are core products, and their prices have increased 10 times in just four months, which is driving the cost of the phosphor used in fluorescent lamps similarly.

China is also implementing export quotas for rare earth materials and phosphor products. This will cause additional downstream cost and supply issues for non-China based lamp manufacturers.

These phosphor material cost increases will have an immediate impact on our lamp costs. Eventually all manufacturers will be forced to pass along these costs, since this is an industry wide issue - there are simply no alternative sources for this phosphor. XXXXX will only pass these costs through to its customers on a net impact basis.

The actual phosphor cost increase impact is a function of the lamp's wattage, but the percent increase is a function of the lamp cost. The larger the lamp, the greater the phosphor cost impact (based on grams of phosphor used). This means T5 lamps use less phosphor and therefore should see a relatively less cost increase. A four lamp T5HO system will use approximately 75% less phosphors than a six lamp T8 system. This will be a market advantage to T5 fixture manufacturers. So let’s make lemonade out of this lemon.

We cannot forecast the peak rise for these lamps and other raw material used in our manufacturing process. However, should there be additional significant changes in the costs of lamps and other materials XXXXX will adjust its prices accordingly, again with proper advance notice so you can adjust your prices concurrently.

Partly this is to demonstrate that the best laid plans of mice and men will soon go astray. But it also aptly demonstrates the dangers inherent in outsourcing and in letting one nation - especially one aggressive centrally-controlled nation - get a monopoly in anything essential. We really need to restart our mining of REEs. Unfortunately mining and refining REEs is quite intensive in real estate.

 

[Bowfinger]

One small bump to this thread - I just received notification of yet another increase in lamp prices, this time with an explanation. (This is the tenth increase in the past four months, so . . .) I have quoted the letter, removing only the manufacturer's name.


Partly this is to demonstrate that the best laid plans of mice and men will soon go astray.

It seems like this would be a plus for halogen and LED manufacturers, though obviously it raises consumer costs for now. I'm also curious how significant this will be in other types of products. Rare earths are vital to all sorts of hi-tech goods.

But it also aptly demonstrates the dangers inherent in outsourcing and in letting one nation - especially one aggressive centrally-controlled nation - get a monopoly in anything essential. We really need to restart our mining of REEs. Unfortunately mining and refining REEs is quite intensive in real estate.

What other countries have significant rare earth deposits? It's not something I'm terribly knowledgeable about, but I thought China had a near-monopoly due to geology and not due to mining practices. I did see an article quite recently that said we've just discovered major deposits of REEs in various spots on the ocean floor, finally opening a door to eliminating China's monopoly ... eventually. In fact, I wonder if the two stories are related, that China is increasing prices now because they know they only have a short window to maximize their profits.