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House overturns mental gun rule

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This is an interesting and valid concern. I would be interested to know what percentage of people factor gun purchases into their mental health decisions though, my gut says not that many but it's probably very regional.

That would be, I think, nearly impossible to determine. Such operational biases are likely unconscious anyway. But as a reference to my personal experience, I am in a very high gun ownership region.

It's definitely constitutional to remove 2nd amendment rights on the basis of mental illness. As a psychiatrist you well know that not only can we deprive them of 2nd amendment rights, but we can effectively imprison someone for quite a long time on the basis of their mental illness, take their money away and give it to a conservator, etc, etc. Not being able to buy a gun due to mental illness? That's an easy hurdle.

This is not the same thing. The scenarios you describe:
1. Involuntary commitment (specific laws are state dependent) requires evidence of imminent threat to self or others. To be legal, you must detain someone with evidence that not doing so will result in significant imminent likelihood of killing them or someone else. You cannot also imprison someone for "quite a long time" without a court order. Your time without a court order could be anywhere from 2 days or 2 weeks depending on the individual state's statutes.
2. Guardianship and conservatorship have nothing to do with mental illness per se, merely competence, and of course require a court order.

Essentially, I would have no problem with a law that allows people to petition the court to determine if someone is competent to possess a firearm.

But a blanket ban for a class of individuals? No bueno.

Studies have shown a significant relationship between gun laws and gun deaths. It would appear that the legality of a gun purchase is a factor for people so no, I do not believe it is rendered moot. (there are more studies if you are interested)

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302703

Nah. I agree with you. I went to far. But I do think it is worth noting that someone highly motivated to kill another person can get access to firearms.
 
Seeing as I am a psychiatrist and about 50% of my patients are receiving disability for severe mental illness, I think my opinion may be of higher value here. I will say a few things.

First, we must separate this argument into 2 concerns: homicide and suicide.

Regarding homicide, mental illness is a risk factor but the vast majority of homicides have absolutely nothing to do with mental illness.

Regarding suicide, there is actual evidence for means restriction and gun ownership. Suicide by gun is about twice as prevalent as murder by gun, and it seems to be overlooked quite a bit in these discussions.

There are 2 very compelling hazards that I see when considering these laws.

1. Restricting gun ownership to the mentally ill is an impediment to people from seeking mental health care. Even the perception of this has come up a few times with patients who have asked if somehow my care restricted them from owning a gun or otherwise noted that they restricted the information they shared with out of fear that I would somehow restrict their gun rights. And I know nothing about patients who have had these thoughts and not shared them with me. And of course I know nothing about people who never seek mental health care in part due to this fear. Given the lifetime prevalence of mental illness (including substance abuse) is close to half the population, this perception seems a mighty large barrier to treatment. I have to wonder, which is more likely: someone who seeks mental illness is prevented from killing self or others because their gun rights were removed, or someone whose treatment of mental illness would prevent them from killing self or others but never got treatment because they feared their gun rights would be removed?

2. Is it constitutional to remove 2nd amendment rights on basis of mental illness? This is the argument cited by the house shutting it down. While I find no fault with the argument that we could reliably classify a bunch of people that we would rather not own guns, I find a lot of fault in removing someone's constitutional rights because we think they are better off without them. For instance, no reasonable person would question that removing gun rights to black people would be unconstitutional (nor immoral). But I feel certain it would be more effective at reducing homicides.

Personally, though, I think all of this is rendered moot when I consider how easy it is for my patients to obtain guns illegally.

Lastly, I do want to put a little social commentary here. There is a function here of ostracizing mental illness and splitting it off as the root of gun-related problems. It gives us a fantasies that 1. people that we feel comfortable not identifying with are responsible and 2. we can do something about the problem. Unfortunately, it's not true. At best, these interventions address a minority of the gun problems we have. And people with mental illness are still people whose rights ought to be in tact. It is far too convenient to feel it OK to paint a subhuman picture. It is not dissimilar from seeing blacks as constitutionally inferior in intellect, lazy, having more violent drives, etc. which were still acceptable beliefs even during the civil rights movement.
Thanks for your valuable and informed insights. You do raise very relevant issues on both sides of the debate - which is very rare for ATPN where people tend to pretend that their side is the only one with any legitimacy. It's a very rare issue indeed which does not have valid points on either side.

For my own very non-professional opinion, I would definitely divide it into those likely to harm others and those likely to harm themselves, with the government compelled to step in for the former and compelled not to step in for the latter once the issue rises to the level of disability. But I definitely agree that there compelling interests on both sides.
 
I thought Republicans claimed we should focus on mental health?

More bullshit.
Um, they ARE focussing on mental health. That doesn't mean automatically disarming anyone with a mental health issue, it means assessing how mental health issues affect potential for harm and then balancing that with innate God-given rights which governments are formed to protect. Re-read Interchange's excellent posts until you understand them, then examine what the Pubbies have done in light of the points he raises. Maybe they did good, maybe not, but they are definitely focussing on mental health.
 
That would be, I think, nearly impossible to determine. Such operational biases are likely unconscious anyway. But as a reference to my personal experience, I am in a very high gun ownership region.

I agree it would be hard to get accurate data on but it might be possible to at least ballpark. Considering how large gun ownership is as a risk factor for suicide I think we would want to see a pretty sizable mental health deterrence effect to reconsider.

This is not the same thing. The scenarios you describe:
1. Involuntary commitment (specific laws are state dependent) requires evidence of imminent threat to self or others. To be legal, you must detain someone with evidence that not doing so will result in significant imminent likelihood of killing them or someone else. You cannot also imprison someone for "quite a long time" without a court order. Your time without a court order could be anywhere from 2 days or 2 weeks depending on the individual state's statutes.
2. Guardianship and conservatorship have nothing to do with mental illness per se, merely competence, and of course require a court order.

Essentially, I would have no problem with a law that allows people to petition the court to determine if someone is competent to possess a firearm.

But a blanket ban for a class of individuals? No bueno.

I agree they aren't the same thing, but considering how much more severe involuntary confinement is than gun ownership I thought it was informative as to whether or not prohibiting gun ownership on the basis of mental health was constitutional or not. I strongly, strongly suspect it is.

Nah. I agree with you. I went to far. But I do think it is worth noting that someone highly motivated to kill another person can get access to firearms.

Most definitely.
 
I'm not sure focusing doesn't mean scapegoating.

It's the norm. If you've not been around here much you'll learn some outrage is mentioned with the final results indicating it was more about the fight than issue. Sometimes intelligent discourse is had and other time prodding and poking for fun. Sometimes it's nasty although I don't understand the psychology of dominance behaviors based on attacks. Ah well.
 
I agree they aren't the same thing, but considering how much more severe involuntary confinement is than gun ownership I thought it was informative as to whether or not prohibiting gun ownership on the basis of mental health was constitutional or not. I strongly, strongly suspect it is.

I'm not sure I agree. Involuntary confinement for a maximum of 2 weeks vs. a lifetime of never owning a firearm doesn't read to me as more severe of a rights restriction, but that's a matter of opinion. Separately, though, a psychiatrist involuntarily committing you does so following a legal and ethical standard against their license exposing them to civil and criminal liability. That's a far cry from a state taking away a constitutional right without providing you any semblance of due process if you think it wrong.

I would be interested in what the supreme court would have to say, though I don't think they'll ever get the chance.
 
Enlightened understanding? Unfair stigma? Certainly not the former. Not everyone who had or have mental issues are threats yet that seems to not have been a consideration. If someone wants to argue that there are certain situations where restrictions make sense that's one thing, but what I've seen isn't really any different than saying blacks can't have guns because they're criminals. It's bigotry.

Lmao call it what you will, in this case I just call it common sense.
 
Um, they ARE focussing on mental health. That doesn't mean automatically disarming anyone with a mental health issue, it means assessing how mental health issues affect potential for harm and then balancing that with innate God-given rights which governments are formed to protect. Re-read Interchange's excellent posts until you understand them, then examine what the Pubbies have done in light of the points he raises. Maybe they did good, maybe not, but they are definitely focussing on mental health.

We have already determined there is an issue with mental health. We just took a step backwards lolol

The fuck?
 
Lmao call it what you will, in this case I just call it common sense.

Why are you claiming alternative truth as common sense? Not everyone is the same even those with mental difficulties, far from all are dangerous. Early last century you might have said the same things about those shiftless criminal blacks. That was just common sense.
 
Why are you claiming alternative truth as common sense? Not everyone is the same even those with mental difficulties, far from all are dangerous. Early last century you might have said the same things about those shiftless criminal blacks. That was just common sense.

That wasn't 'common sense', that was bigotry and ignorance. Common sense is knowing that if I get to close to the edge of a cliff there's a chance I might fall. The closer I get, the greater the chance. Not sure why you are bringing that into the discussion. Do you have mental issues yourself?
 
'Nah. I agree with you. I went to far. But I do think it is worth noting that someone highly motivated to kill another person can get access to firearms.
Most definitely.

That's such a dumb point to make. We need to be worried about hot blooded activities folks. Again, common sense.
 
what a wonderful little troll you are tajjy.

"Wonderful"?

Is that another word for

1d11d58dd396c2b7f098835f805597e2.jpg
 
That wasn't 'common sense', that was bigotry and ignorance. Common sense is knowing that if I get to close to the edge of a cliff there's a chance I might fall. The closer I get, the greater the chance. Not sure why you are bringing that into the discussion. Do you have mental issues yourself?

You didn't seem to understand that not all mental illness is the same. If you understand that then you haven't a problem with every diagnosis being a problem. If you don't get it then it's bigotry and ignorance. Which is it?
 
You didn't seem to understand that not all mental illness is the same. If you understand that then you haven't a problem with every diagnosis being a problem. If you don't get it then it's bigotry and ignorance. Which is it?

Go ahead and list off the mental conditions that you're cool with mixing guns into the equation. I'll wait, this should be good!
 
Go ahead and list off the mental conditions that you're cool with mixing guns into the equation. I'll wait, this should be good!

If you are so keen on giving me the power to restrict guns, I choose people who are mentally inflexible and prone to supporting their arguments with bullying instead of reason.
 
Go ahead and list off the mental conditions that you're cool with mixing guns into the equation. I'll wait, this should be good!


You have your mind made up so why bother? You haven't any knowledge of medicine, disease or treatments, unless you are hiding things from us. I think we're done.
 
You have your mind made up so why bother? You haven't any knowledge of medicine, disease or treatments, unless you are hiding things from us. I think we're done.

I really don't have my mind made up. I'm not even anti-gun. I can't remember the last day there wasn't a shooting in my neighborhood.

I have a friend who has aspergers and he has told me he was going kill himself at least 100 times. The latest being about a week ago. (He told me if his next push at life didn't go well he'd just hang himself.) Obv he suffers from depression as well.

My mother suffered from severe depression and had rush hospital shock her back into reality?

I know two people who suffer from manic bipolar disorder. Sometimes they are on top of the world. Other times its a 180.

I'll make it easier for you. Just name one condition. Lol anyway you folded so we're good, no hard feelings man.
 
I really don't have my mind made up. I'm not even anti-gun. I can't remember the last day there wasn't a shooting in my neighborhood.

I have a friend who has aspergers and he has told me he was going kill himself at least 100 times. The latest being about a week ago. (He told me if his next push at life didn't go well he'd just hang himself.) Obv he suffers from depression as well.

My mother suffered from severe depression and had rush hospital shock her back into reality?

I know two people who suffer from manic bipolar disorder. Sometimes they are on top of the world. Other times its a 180.

I'll make it easier for you. Just name one condition. Lol anyway you folded so we're good, no hard feelings man.
One word -Move.
 
Always a paragon of compassionate conservatism.
The guy claims that he can't remember the last time there wasn't a shooting in his neighborhood. WTF? I'd be out of there so fast you couldn't see me for the dust. Nothing, nothing and I mean nothing in this life should keep him from getting the hell out of Dodge. No excuses, pack up and get out.
 
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