House dem defects to republicans because of healthcare bill

[Genx87]

Sounds like the GOP's purity test in action to me.

Already addressed, read the thread please.

 

[Ausm]

I don't like the Republicans and was glad to give the Dems a chance after Bush. When the time came we seem to have had a rush to show that they are as bad once they assumed control.

I hoped that Iraq would be investigated. Nope, swept under the rug. We might learn something because of the Brits investigation. That's that. Bush policies? Not only ignored, but embraced. Health care reform? Sure, even if it mandates what was supposedly an evil a couple months ago. That's a party of ethical superiority? It's get anything so we look better than we might have in 2010, and if that includes the shocking deal with Nebraska (and tell me that if the Reps had offered a reduced income tax for supporting the Patriot Act it would have gone unnoticed). THEN the very same people who rightly pointed out the wrongs Bush did defend the same principles done by their sides. Even Progressives who claim some moral superiority (not that I agree) over the rest of the party are willing to sell their Raison d'être

All choices are evil.

The problem is the disconnect between the people and the beltway due to the flood of special interest cash.

 

[Genx87]

And how is that working out? The current heath care bill(s) have been so gutted they're nearly worthless.

Perhaps because the original idea was an even bigger pile of shit?

Can you give me a *big* issue where R moderates have held up their own party like this?

SS reform

 

[Ausm]

And how is that working out? The current heath care bill(s) have been so gutted they're nearly worthless.



Can you give me a *big* issue where R moderates have held up their own party like this?

The problem is this healthcare bill is the beginning of the GOP's Waterloo imo. Why would they use every parliamentary stall trick in the book. The beauty of the whole fiasco is it the Congress is now in the limemelight so people who normally don't pay attention to the inner working of government can truly see how dysfunctional it is.

 

[Robor]

I don't like the Republicans and was glad to give the Dems a chance after Bush. When the time came we seem to have had a rush to show that they are as bad once they assumed control.

I hoped that Iraq would be investigated. Nope, swept under the rug. We might learn something because of the Brits investigation. That's that. Bush policies? Not only ignored, but embraced. Health care reform? Sure, even if it mandates what was supposedly an evil a couple months ago. That's a party of ethical superiority? It's get anything so we look better than we might have in 2010, and if that includes the shocking deal with Nebraska (and tell me that if the Reps had offered a reduced income tax for supporting the Patriot Act it would have gone unnoticed).

I don't understand the first comment because outside of the stimulus the D's haven't done much. And I'm very disappointed with Iraq and what has become of health care reform.

THEN the very same people who rightly pointed out the wrongs Bush did defend the same principles done by their sides. Even Progressives who claim some moral superiority (not that I agree) over the rest of the party are willing to sell their Raison d'être

All choices are evil.

I don't think many Obama supporters defend continuing things like indefinite detentions, warrantless wiretaps, etc. I'm not even sold on Obama's desire to finish Afghanistan anymore.

 

[Genx87]

Robor, you do realize that stimulus bill coupled with the bank bailout allowed govt to takeover a pretty significant portion of our economy correct? Healthcare would add an even larger portion to the govts control. So I dont buy your opinion they havent done much iin the past 12-15 months. We have the executive branch dictating wages, running an icon of American industrial strength, and breathing down the back of 1/6th of our economy.

 

[Robor]

You do realize prior to 06 the Democrats held that title right? I posted in a bunch of threads the famous song "Whatever it is? I am against it".

Your disappointment level really has little to do with what is going on now. Clearly the United States population is less and less happy about what is being crammed down out throats yet they will pass something. The train was derailed by bush and now Democrats + Obama are funding rocket engines be attached so it can fly over the cliff faster and farther than previously imagined. That is what I mean by a run away train.

Come on... Are you saying that wasn't expected after 6 years of GWB rubbing their noses in everything?

How can it be 'crammed' if it's been 6+ months and gutted to almost worthlessness? And yeah, spending needs to be controlled but it's not going to happen until the economy recovers - if then. It's not like the previous R's were fiscal conservatives.

 

[Robor]

SS reform

Yep, forgot about that one.

 

[Genx87]

Come on... Are you saying that wasn't expected after 6 years of GWB rubbing their noses in everything?

How can it be 'crammed' if it's been 6+ months and gutted to almost worthlessness? And yeah, spending needs to be controlled but it's not going to happen until the economy recovers - if then. It's not like the previous R's were fiscal conservatives.

So you admit democrats were the party of No? Perhaps being the party of no has more to do with having little power than being Republican.

It is being crammed down our throats because polls are showing more people oppose what the proposal is than approve of it. If our representatives truely represented us they would drop the idea based on that alone.

 

[Robor]

Robor, you do realize that stimulus bill coupled with the bank bailout allowed govt to takeover a pretty significant portion of our economy correct? Healthcare would add an even larger portion to the govts control. So I dont buy your opinion they havent done much iin the past 12-15 months. We have the executive branch dictating wages, running an icon of American industrial strength, and breathing down the back of 1/6th of our economy.

Would the alternative (no TARP/stimulus) been better?

 

[Genx87]

Would the alternative (no TARP/stimulus) been better?

That is really irrelevant in the discussion of whether or not they have done nothing.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The problem is the disconnect between the people and the beltway due to the flood of special interest cash.

That isn't the problem, it's the result. The problem is that people hold their party as inherently superior and defend it when clearly they are wrong. People laugh at the infallibility of the Pope, and then go about treating their party as if the principle applied to it. When things go wrong, it's this thing or that person, this party or that group. A flood of special interest cash? How about the recording industry and much lauded Henry Waxman who would rather see people finded and ruined for downloading movies or music than to pass up on the cash.

The reason that special interest money works is because everyone knows that when push comes to shove everyone gets some, that it has ALWAYS been this way, and the party faithful will make excuses for their own rather than hold them accountable, and I mean as a whole.

With this bill it's special interests, and Republicans, and Blue Dogs etc.

Well the Blue Dogs represent a large number of people who feel they ought to be represented. What about them?

The ONLY legitimate role of government is to play a subservient part in promoting the welfare of the people who it serves. When Party rules government then that's problematic because now there is a high level of self interest that conflicts with the general welfare.

People who support a party then provide the means to the end of staying in power. The Reps are inherently correct, and now are the Dems. Consequently it's everyone elses fault and everyone else needs to be addressed, and therein lies the heart of the matter.

Generally speaking we would rather defend our party and accuse the other than to hold our own equally accountable at all times.

I'm beating up on the Dems because they are in control making policies. The Buck has their address on it for the moment.

Let's consider health care legislation for the moment. It's the Dem's baby.

The perfectly predictable situation we find ourselves in rests entirely at their feet. It was a given that the Reps were going to obstruct you. You did it to them. That's what minority parties do, because it's all about reacquiring power.

That being an obvious given, it should have been known that there were people in the party which do not see eye to eye. Therefore a problem of party solidarity was inevitable.

Why did the Dems not make the effort to define the problem from the perspective of health care and not political gain? You'll never find a post where I said that health care didn't need reform. I have said that insurance reform is not health care. I've said that we needed to make a current assessment of what the problems are, what can be done, and an analysis of costs which can then be used to craft legislation. Well, there was about as much interest in that as there was to make sure the intel and policies regarding Iraq were correct ahead of making war.

And that brings us back to the central problem yet again. The base assumption is that The Party is going to make the right decision, that The Party is inherently superior to the Opposition, that any questioning of The Party is merely an attempt by the Opposition to bring it down.

The concept that they might have come up with a bad or ill thought out plan is abhorrent, and must be denied at all costs. So The Party leaders know they can take money, get you all pissed off, pretty much do anything they want and at the end of the day you'll vote for The Party. They can count on it, and they do. Note that this didn't mention what The Party was. It's a general fault.

That's the problem from which all things follow.

 

[shadow9d9]

Robor, you do realize that stimulus bill coupled with the bank bailout allowed govt to takeover a pretty significant portion of our economy correct? Healthcare would add an even larger portion to the govts control. So I dont buy your opinion they havent done much iin the past 12-15 months. We have the executive branch dictating wages, running an icon of American industrial strength, and breathing down the back of 1/6th of our economy.

Umm, a significant part of our economy? 1/6 of our economy is now government controlled? Prove it.

These companies wouldn't exist anymore, PERIOD, without government intervention. So, let's play out the scenario of non intervention. 1/6 of the economy fails, no longer exists, gone. All because of its own fault. Is that how you define the "icon of American industrial strength"? Corporations run amok because of greed, leading to the failure of 1/6 of our economy?

 

[bfdd]

Isn't it wonderful how these politicians can just go back and forth? I would never vote for a politician that switched to the enemy party. Leaving both major parties on the other hand would garner my respect.

 

[Genx87]

Umm, a significant part of our economy? 1/6 of our economy is now government controlled? Prove it.

These companies wouldn't exist anymore, PERIOD, without government intervention. So, let's play out the scenario of non intervention. 1/6 of the economy fails, no longer exists, gone. All because of its own fault. Is that how you define the "icon of American industrial strength"? Corporations run amok because of greed, leading to the failure of 1/6 of our economy?

Reading apparently isnt your strong suit. I clearly said they are currently attempting to take over 1/6th of our economy, not that they have. And again like I said to Robor. Whether or not Tarp and the Stimulus was required is irrelevant to the position the govt has done nothing in the past 12-15 months.

 

[eits]

We'll give you Lieberman back will that make you feel better?

keep him... please.

 

[eits]

i wish this guy would have spoken up a little more loudly than be a bitch and switch sides. voting records don't speak loudly enough. should have scheduled more airtime with various talk shows and news outlets. switching sides speaks loudly, but doesn't convey the proper message. it conveys that the republicans have a better plan (which they don't, they're just the party of spiteful bitches) rather than conveying a message of careful analysis and common sense.