Hot water heater (and electrical code) questions **EDIT: UPDATE ON POST #51**

[beer]

This is actually a two-part thread:

The first part is about my girlfriend's hot water heater. She takes a lot of baths and never has enough water to draw a full bath. So with all my newfound free time, I'm starting to get around fixing these things.

Her tub is, like most bath tubs, about 20 or 25 gallons. She has a 35 gallon hot water heater. She runs out of hot water about 1/2 the way up, so about, on average, maybe 10 gallons or so.

Her hot water heater is a two-element, 4500W, 35 gallon hot water heater. Obviously, something isn't right here. It goes without saying that she doesn't take a bath if the dishes or washing machine are runing.

I started playing around with it and I was going to reset it, in case one of the elements isn't working, which I think may be the case. So I went to go kill the breaker and none of her breakers are labeled.

I assumed this to be a flagrant violation of electrical code. While the 2003 code isn't available online, the NEC 2005 draft is. According to article 408.4, Circuit Directory, it is a violate of code not not legibly identify the use or purporse of each switch.

It is also worth nothing that the hot water heater isn't on the appropriatly-rated breaker. Assuming 4500W @ 240 VAC, the rms current draw is about 18.75 amps. The manual specifically states that it should be tied to a 25A switch. Now, all the breakers are either 20 or 30 A. Putting it at 20A would not be an acceptable tolerance, in my opinion, so I am going to assume that it is not any of the 20A switches. However, 30A is a 33% tolerance beyond the nominal operating condition, which to me seems awfully high. Is that another violation of the code?

So I have two questions

1) can I safely reset her HWH without having to turn off the breaker? I'm not about to start pulling every 30A switch at 2 AM. It's been bothering her a lot lately.

2) I want these switches labeled. Her super is obviously incompetant. He has been over here twice, and both times he caused more harm than good. They were both plumbing issues. The first service call was because the little routing-thingy that switches between the shower and the bath tap stopped working. He knocked in a wall before he decided to call a plumber, who said that it was a 10 minute job that was turned into an hour because of the amount of damage the super caused. The scond service call was because the ceiling was leaking, and all he did was put a plastic wal-mart bag taped to the ceiling. If at all possible I don't want him anywhere near the electrical system. Is there a way to get them out here TOMORROW and have these labeled? I am not going to be blamed for pulling switches and destroying something important.

 

[Eli]

Never heard of a hot water heater.

What's the point in heating the water if it's already hot?

 

[The Stigenator]

get a signal tracer at radio shack.. will make your life a lot easier.

plug it on one end and look for the breaker on the other..

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: The_good_guy
get a signal tracer at radio shack.. will make your life a lot easier.

plug it on one end and look for the breaker on the other..

I'm going to look into that.

 

[beer]

OK well according to this: Signal Tracer

The problem is I can't move the hot water heater to get to the outlet. It's in a very space-limited environment for me to do something like that - its hidden in a little cubby opposite her sink, in her bathroom.

 

[etech]

It sounds as if the hot water heater has never been drained and is filling up with sediment. The only fix for that is to replace the tank.

There should be a drain valve on the bottom of the tank. You could try opening that and draining the tank into a bucket. If no water comes out than that's a pretty good sign that sediment has filled the bottom of the tank. I would buy a cap to fit on the end of the faucet before you try it though. Sometimes it is hard to get the faucet to seal again if it is very old.

 

[Analog]

The breaker is sized to protect the wire, not to the load. I.e. 30A breaker is used on a #10 wire. It is always better to put a bigger breaker/wire combo based on the load, so the 30A breaker is perfectly fine, as long as the wire is #10 or larger diameter.

Think about it this way, a standard outlet may use #12 wire and a 20A breaker. There is no way to know what the load will be on that outlet, it can be a 2000W hair dryer, or a 15W nite light. As long as the wire is protected from overload by the breaker, you are safely operating it.

 

[Papagayo]

That might not be the problem..

Here is my theory::

Your GF uses around 20-25 gallons of hot water.. Water heater capacity is only 35 gallons. Water heater will not give out full 35 gallons at one time. It's probably set so that when the container is at certain level, it puts in cold water to get heated.
She probably gets luke warm water after so much of hot water, because of it. IF she takes lot of baths, she might need a water heater with bigger capacity.

 

[RU482]

One question on the water heater...

Is the manufacturer A.O.Smith? How old is it?
There was a recall a while back (too late now) for an internal component on certain water heaters they made. Basically, you could never take advantage of the full tank's capacity because of this failure.

 

[robrr]

Originally posted by: yellowfiero
The breaker is sized to protect the wire, not to the load. I.e. 30A breaker is used on a #10 wire. It is always better to put a bigger breaker/wire combo based on the load, so the 30A breaker is perfectly fine, as long as the wire is #10 or larger diameter.

PLEASE do not follow this advice!

The circuit breaker is sized to protect the wire and the equipment attached to it. Oversizing the breaker is a clear violation of the National Electric Code. If the label on the water heater calls for the circuit to be protected by a 25A breaker, then that information is part of the listing (UL or others) for that piece of equipment and must be followed to be code compliant. Trying to learn how to correctly install or maintain electrical systems from information found on the internet is a dangerous practice. Although the Home Depots of the world encourage homeowners to peform this inherently risky work themselves, an unqualified person installing or maintaining electrical systems in a multifamily building is endangering the lives and property of many people. In most jurisdictions, only a licensed electrician is legally allowed to perform any electrical work in a residential building with more than one tenant.

Sorry for the long rant, but the risks are serious and numerous.

 

[robrr]

Double

 

[Grouchyoldguy]

A burned out element effects recovery time, not how hot the water gets. If there is not enough hot water turn up the thermostat. You will use more cold/less hot to get the same temp. Do not turn it up so high that someone can scald themselves at the sink. Insulating the pipes to the bath will help alot also.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Grouchyoldguy
A burned out element effects recovery time, not how hot the water gets. If there is not enough hot water turn up the thermostat. You will use more cold/less hot to get the same temp. Do not turn it up so high that someone can scald themselves at the sink. Insulating the pipes to the bath will help alot also.

Distance from the water heater to the bath is less than 10 feet.

The thermostat is already at 140.

 

[Eli]

I agree with the "cold water addition" theory.

I also agree with yellowfiero.

So you're saying that if a load requires a 25A circuit to be up to code, and you put it on a 30A circuit, "just to be safe" lets say, it's a violation of electical code? WTF?

That makes absolutely no sense, and I will refuse to believe that until someone shows me otherwise.

 

[flot]

Well, I don't have any advice on your water heater issue specifically - I'm not sure why a 35 gallon water heater wouldn't put out at least 20 gallons of pretty warm water... build up inside the tank could be the culpret, but I doubt that you'd have 10-20 gallons worth of crap built up in there??? Guess it's possible though. Also, as someone pointed out, for every gallon of hot water you use, a gallon of cold water is dumped into the tank. So yes, I'm pretty sure that having one element burned out WOULD have an impact, since it will not be able to keep up with the cold water entering the tank as well. I suppose a combination of one element out and some build up might cause this sort of behavior?

As for the "Electrical Violations" I think you need to seriously start evaulating alcohol or other substance abuse as a method to curb your anxiety. I don't know that I've ever lived in a house where all the breakers were labeled correctly. And unless your girlfriend's house is BRAND NEW CONSTRUCTION I'm pretty sure the 2004 (or 2003) electrical code doesn't mean anything at all.

And as for dealing with the super, well, I'm not sure why you think that he's a good person to make your enemy, because it sounds like he's your only line of defense when it comes to repairs. You didn't specify if your girlfriend lives in a single apartment and the super oversees 40 of them, or if she lives in some rented out house etc... but either way, cut the guy some slack.

PS: In all the houses where the breakers were unlabeled (and yes, I can remember at least 8 like that) the key to finding the hot water heater one was to flip them all off, send someone into the hot water heater room, wait 5 mins and then start turning them on one by one. When you flip the breaker for the hot water heater to ON, there will be about a 4-5 second delay and then you'll hear a slight hiss from inside the tank as the elements heat up. There's your breaker.

PPS: Assuming each element has a seperate thermostat on it, you can do a similar test - leave the breaker on (danger, hazardous voltage, etc, etc) and then slowly turn the thermostat up on each individual element. You should hear a click and then the hiss as it heats up. If one of the elements does not do this, then that element is bad and should be replaced.

 

[Cyberian]

Originally posted by: flot

PS: In all the houses where the breakers were unlabeled (and yes, I can remember at least 8 like that) the key to finding the hot water heater one was to flip them all off, send someone into the hot water heater room, wait 5 mins and then start turning them on one by one. When you flip the breaker for the hot water heater to ON, there will be about a 4-5 second delay and then you'll hear a slight hiss from inside the tank as the elements heat up. There's your breaker.

You could also plug a loud radio into the same outlet as the water heater and do the same thing with just one person.

 

[flot]

There are not a lot of 240v portable radios out there.. but you're right, it would be loud.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: flot
There are not a lot of 240v portable radios out there.. but you're right, it would be loud.

LOL.....

I'm pretty sure our water heater just plugs into a normal 120v outlet, but maybe thats not the norm.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: flot
There are not a lot of 240v portable radios out there.. but you're right, it would be loud.

LOL.....

I'm pretty sure our water heater just plugs into a normal 120v outlet, but maybe thats not the norm.

The HWH is 240 Volts. I said clearly that it is a 4500W hot water heater? That would be a nominal 37.5 A current draw if it was on 120 V AC. Most hot water heaters are 240 V given that I doubt anything more than 3 kW would be on 120 V. And given that she is in a single-bedroom apt, I'd imagine that 240 VAC is the norm.

So you're saying that if a load requires a 25A circuit to be up to code, and you put it on a 30A circuit, "just to be safe" lets say, it's a violation of electical code? WTF?

How does putting it on a larger breaker do it 'just to be safe?'

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Papagayo
That might not be the problem..

Here is my theory::

Your GF uses around 20-25 gallons of hot water.. Water heater capacity is only 35 gallons. Water heater will not give out full 35 gallons at one time. It's probably set so that when the container is at certain level, it puts in cold water to get heated.
She probably gets luke warm water after so much of hot water, because of it. IF she takes lot of baths, she might need a water heater with bigger capacity.

The point is that she is only getting less than 15 gallons of hot water out of a 35 gallon hot water heater. She takes her baths first thing in the morning when it should be FULL of 35 gallons of hot water. What's so hard to understand about this?

 

[Cyberian]

Originally posted by: flot
There are not a lot of 240v portable radios out there.. but you're right, it would be loud.

Ahhh - I also thought most electric water heaters were 110v.
Our house is pretty old, though.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: flot
There are not a lot of 240v portable radios out there.. but you're right, it would be loud.

LOL.....

I'm pretty sure our water heater just plugs into a normal 120v outlet, but maybe thats not the norm.

The HWH is 240 Volts. I said clearly that it is a 4500W hot water heater? That would be a nominal 37.5 A current draw if it was on 120 V AC. Most hot water heaters are 240 V given that I doubt anything more than 3 kW would be on 120 V. And given that she is in a single-bedroom apt, I'd imagine that 240 VAC is the norm.

So you're saying that if a load requires a 25A circuit to be up to code, and you put it on a 30A circuit, "just to be safe" lets say, it's a violation of electical code? WTF?

How does putting it on a larger breaker do it 'just to be safe?'

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

All I said was that our water heater plugs into a normal 120V outlet. I said that I thought it was normal, but maybe it isn't the norm.

Umm... Excuse me? I guess I understand what you're saying. It's my fault for not being clear. I did not mean put it on a larger breaker while keeping the wiring to same. That's where the confusion is. I completely agree, you cannot just put a 30A breaker on a 25A circuit.

OK, let's put it this way.. If you put the 18A water heater on a complete 30A circuit, even though it says its supposed to be on a 25A circuit... it wouldn't be up to code?

That doesen't make any sense, and I kindly disagree until I can be shown otherwise.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Elemental007

Originally posted by: Papagayo
That might not be the problem..

Here is my theory::

Your GF uses around 20-25 gallons of hot water.. Water heater capacity is only 35 gallons. Water heater will not give out full 35 gallons at one time. It's probably set so that when the container is at certain level, it puts in cold water to get heated.
She probably gets luke warm water after so much of hot water, because of it. IF she takes lot of baths, she might need a water heater with bigger capacity.

The point is that she is only getting less than 15 gallons of hot water out of a 35 gallon hot water heater. She takes her baths first thing in the morning when it should be FULL of 35 gallons of hot water. What's so hard to understand about this?

As has been said before..

I am betting that its the filler mechanism either malfunctioning, or maybe even working properly. As you know, the water heater fills up at some point when water is being used.

She uses 15 gallons. Cold water begins pouring in to refill the tank. With only 10 gallons of hot water remaining, it is quickly diluted, lowering its temperature significantly.

"What's so hard to understand about this?"

 

[beer]

I have never known of any 120V water heaters.

I've only seen natural gas and 240V water heaters. Considering that her apt has the smallest electric water heater i have ever seen, I really doubt 120 V water heaters are commonplace.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Elemental007
I have never known of any 120V water heaters.

I've only seen natural gas and 240V water heaters. Considering that her apt has the smallest electric water heater i have ever seen, I really doubt 120 V water heaters are commonplace.

Maybe it's a 240V outlet disguised as a 120V?... Dunno.

All I know is our water heater is a 50 gallon, 5500W model, and the plugin and receptacle look exactly like standard 120V equipment..

But yeah. You could maybe contact or research the manufacturer? I'm pretty sure you never get the whole rated output of hotwater, due to the filling mechanism.