Hooray for Earth Hour!

[scruffypup]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
I turned every light I have on for Earth Hour.

You too???

Awareness of something that is not a proven fact and possible fiction can lead societies to behave very irrational,.... the more the agenda is pushed the more likely there is bloodshed,....

Can we push this theory as far as other theories that cause wars? Not likely, but who knows in todays day,...

Complete denial of mountains of Evidence is even more irrational.

No denial here,... there is no factual proof any global warming is man made,.... or if part is,.. how much,... none,... there is not even evidence,... we don't know since the Earth has been warmer in the past and it is unknown how much of a role is natural variations due to the sun or other sources,....

But there will be those who believe without doubt, just like Gods, ghosts, etc,.... sure warming could be man made, it could be man made delusions too.

Like I said, denial is irrational.

You are funny,.... however wrong,...

There is data for one thing (higher temps over a period), there is data for another (emissions for a period),... there is someone with a THEORY that they are connected,.... there is no proof,... so denial is not part of this,... that is all I have stated,...

I said it is possible, I also said it could be another man made delusion and used extreme examples that people will pretty much believe in no matter what, then again maybe you are one to believe in the ghosts and Gods,....

Keep on keeping on.

Fine if we have to put it that way,...

I deny things without solid proof

You believe things without solid proof,..

Just because you believe it is so,... does not mean you are right,... then again I can say the same about other groups previously mentioned and they will say they are right no matter what,... so I am sure you will do the same.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup




You are funny,.... however wrong,...

There is data for one thing (higher temps over a period), there is data for another (emissions for a period),... there is someone with a THEORY that they are connected,.... there is no proof,... so denial is not part of this,... that is all I have stated,...

I said it is possible, I also said it could be another man made delusion and used extreme examples that people will pretty much believe in no matter what, then again maybe you are one to believe in the ghosts and Gods,....

Keep on keeping on.

Fine if we have to put it that way,...

I deny things without solid proof

You believe things without solid proof,..

Just because you believe it is so,... does not mean you are right,... then again I can say the same about other groups previously mentioned and they will say they are right no matter what,... so I am sure you will do the same.

What constitutes "solid proof". There's mountains of Evidence supporting CC/GW and Man's contribution. Does Evidence not enter into your "solid proof"?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ericlp
Only an Idiot like the OP that obviously has no clue about amps and watts. Light Bulbs only take up maybe 5-8% of your house hold yearly electrical usage and obviously if your using CFL's, it's gonna amount to even less then that. So, 1 hour with CFL bulbs is not going to amount to a hill of beans while your hot water heater, computers, washer, dryer, refrigerator, etc...etc... is buzzing away. Give it a rest moron. While I didn't observer the hour, it was meant for awareness of just how much coal we are burning to keep the electricity flowing.

Just because you didn't like the idea doesn't mean you gotta piss on everyone that does.

So you admit that it has no practical value (obviously, if you thought it had practical value, you'd likely have participated). Good, then we agree.

Thanks for your support.

ZV

 

[NeoV]

Zen - you just don't get it - the purpose of Earth hour was not to conserve as much electricity, or to reduce carbon output as much as possible for that one hour - it was to raise awareness of the issue.

Your closed-minded approach to things is all the more obvious with your links - 'well the output didn't go down here in the US - therefore it didn't go down at all, or was outpaced by candle carbon output' - that's not at all the point - you may think it is - but that doesn't make it so.

Jay Leno owns something like 50 cars - but go ahead and quote him about people and how their cars impact the environment.

Scruffypup - you may want to actually do some reading on not only global warming, but science in general, before you go spouting off about what an expert you are. The very process you make fun of is how science works - data is analyzed, theories are developed, more data is analyzed, etc, etc. This isn't 'someone has a theory' going on, it's a wee bit beyond that now. Reading - you should try it.

 

[scruffypup]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup




You are funny,.... however wrong,...

There is data for one thing (higher temps over a period), there is data for another (emissions for a period),... there is someone with a THEORY that they are connected,.... there is no proof,... so denial is not part of this,... that is all I have stated,...

I said it is possible, I also said it could be another man made delusion and used extreme examples that people will pretty much believe in no matter what, then again maybe you are one to believe in the ghosts and Gods,....

Keep on keeping on.

Fine if we have to put it that way,...

I deny things without solid proof

You believe things without solid proof,..

Just because you believe it is so,... does not mean you are right,... then again I can say the same about other groups previously mentioned and they will say they are right no matter what,... so I am sure you will do the same.

What constitutes "solid proof". There's mountains of Evidence supporting CC/GW and Man's contribution. Does Evidence not enter into your "solid proof"?

Global warming caused by Man,... is a theory!!! Look up that word,... Theory is not fact,... sure there is evidence supporting that THEORY, but there is no conclusive proof at this time.

There have been many theories that had evidence to support them at the time, that were later proven to be false,....again, I am sure you will say you are right no matter what since it is what you believe.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
I turned every light I have on for Earth Hour.

You too???

Awareness of something that is not a proven fact and possible fiction can lead societies to behave very irrational,.... the more the agenda is pushed the more likely there is bloodshed,....

Can we push this theory as far as other theories that cause wars? Not likely, but who knows in todays day,...

Irrationally - like turning all of your lights on out of spite? :roll: I don't care if you believe in global warming or not, there are other reasons for conserving energy.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: NeoV
Zen - you just don't get it - the purpose of Earth hour was not to conserve as much electricity, or to reduce carbon output as much as possible for that one hour - it was to raise awareness of the issue.

Your closed-minded approach to things is all the more obvious with your links - 'well the output didn't go down here in the US - therefore it didn't go down at all, or was outpaced by candle carbon output' - that's not at all the point - you may think it is - but that doesn't make it so.

Jay Leno owns something like 50 cars - but go ahead and quote him about people and how their cars impact the environment.

"Raising awareness" is a meaningless goal. It doesn't matter if people are "aware" of something. It only matters if they change their actions. The sad fact is that lasting change as a result of Earth Hour is unlikely. Only a sustained educational campaign can make the sorts of permanent changes that the forces behind Earth Hour seem to want. It's not enough to be "aware" of the truck bearing down on you, you have to take action and jump out of the way too. And most people aren't going to do that from one hour a year.

Things like Earth Hour give the illusion of progress without effecting any substantive change. The time and effort that went into the coordination of Earth Hour would have been better spent on creating a sustainable education program to encourage long-term change. Instead, we have one hour, after which the majority of people will return to their previous habits with no change except that they will feel like they've done something because they participated in a meaningless gesture.

Leno's quote applies in many contexts and is a valid observation of human behavior. We absolutely do like to have others know about the good we do anonymously. You're welcome to discount a legitimate observation because of its source, but be aware that you're committing a logical fallacy by doing so.

ZV

 

[AreaCode707]

I think that you could argue (admittedly without evidence on my part) that some of the people who participated in Earth Hour are less likely to actually aid conservation. Humans have a tendency to feel justified in indulging themselves if they've deprived themselves somewhere else. "I was good on my diet today; I deserve a cookie." "I did Earth Hour last week; I deserve to drive instead of bus to work today."

This awareness is less likely to impact long term good behavior but possibly will increase short term bad behavior as a compensatory measure. I think it's fine and dandy that people participated but I also don't see anything wrong with ZV poking some holes in the ego-stroking that surrounded it. If his rant riles a few people into taking extra eco-friendly steps as an "f u" to him, all the better.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup




You are funny,.... however wrong,...

There is data for one thing (higher temps over a period), there is data for another (emissions for a period),... there is someone with a THEORY that they are connected,.... there is no proof,... so denial is not part of this,... that is all I have stated,...

I said it is possible, I also said it could be another man made delusion and used extreme examples that people will pretty much believe in no matter what, then again maybe you are one to believe in the ghosts and Gods,....

Keep on keeping on.

Fine if we have to put it that way,...

I deny things without solid proof

You believe things without solid proof,..

Just because you believe it is so,... does not mean you are right,... then again I can say the same about other groups previously mentioned and they will say they are right no matter what,... so I am sure you will do the same.

What constitutes "solid proof". There's mountains of Evidence supporting CC/GW and Man's contribution. Does Evidence not enter into your "solid proof"?

Global warming caused by Man,... is a theory!!! Look up that word,... Theory is not fact,... sure there is evidence supporting that THEORY, but there is no conclusive proof at this time.

There have been many theories that had evidence to support them at the time, that were later proven to be false,....again, I am sure you will say you are right no matter what since it is what you believe.

You have no idea what "theory" means. Go ahead and bold it for our entertainment.

 

[NeoV]

Ask yourself this Zen - how much 'awareness' of global warming was there 10-12 years ago?

You don't think raising awareness about global warming has brought about any meaningful changes in the last 10 years?

The very fact that we are having this discussion, as you put it - is a logically fallacy in and of itself.

The fact that vehicles like the Prius exist is another, regardless of why people buy/drive them.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I think that you could argue (admittedly without evidence on my part) that some of the people who participated in Earth Hour are less likely to actually aid conservation. Humans have a tendency to feel justified in indulging themselves if they've deprived themselves somewhere else. "I was good on my diet today; I deserve a cookie." "I did Earth Hour last week; I deserve to drive instead of bus to work today."

This awareness is less likely to impact long term good behavior but possibly will increase short term bad behavior as a compensatory measure. I think it's fine and dandy that people participated but I also don't see anything wrong with ZV poking some holes in the ego-stroking that surrounded it. If his rant riles a few people into taking extra eco-friendly steps as an "f u" to him, all the better.

hehe, ya I can pretty much agree there. On the whole the Event is fine IMO, but many people certainly are easily and temporarily swayed from one thing to the next only because it is Trendy. This is always true, even poo-pooing such Events is trendy at times.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: NeoV
Ask yourself this Zen - how much 'awareness' of global warming was there 10-12 years ago?

You don't think raising awareness about global warming has brought about any meaningful changes in the last 10 years?

The very fact that we are having this discussion, as you put it - is a logically fallacy in and of itself.

The fact that vehicles like the Prius exist is another, regardless of why people buy/drive them.

Things have changed over the longer term of 10-20 years because of long-term efforts geared towards education. I learned about the problems of pollution and the negative effects of coal and oil when I was in school back in the 1980's. We see change now because those efforts are finally starting to pay off. The efforts that began in the 1980s were not one-day celebrations like Earth Hour, they were dedicated efforts at long term education and behavioral change and that's why we're seeing success.

You'll have to enlighten me about how this discussion and the Prius are logical fallacies, because I cannot honestly see the parallel.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: sandorski
hehe, ya I can pretty much agree there. On the whole the Event is fine IMO, but many people certainly are easily and temporarily swayed from one thing to the next only because it is Trendy. This is always true, even poo-pooing such Events is trendy at times.

It's a win-win. Enviro-trendy types get to feel happy because they think they helped, and misanthropic-trendy people like me get to feel happy because I think I'm pointing out things that are wrong.

ZV

 

[NeoV]

Earth Hour was an event, but it's not over - get past your hatred of all things labeled 'liberal' or 'green' and try to be objective.

If you can't see the progress made in the 'awareness' of global warming - whether you want to call it education or something else - then this entire discussion is pointless.

The Prius point - the reason that hybrid cars are sold today is in large part due to the ever growing 'awareness' of global warming - whether it's from sources like Al Gore's film, events like Earth Hour, or just coverage of scientific articles - more and more people are aware of global warming than ever before. How you can deny that is beyond me.

 

[scruffypup]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup




You are funny,.... however wrong,...

There is data for one thing (higher temps over a period), there is data for another (emissions for a period),... there is someone with a THEORY that they are connected,.... there is no proof,... so denial is not part of this,... that is all I have stated,...

I said it is possible, I also said it could be another man made delusion and used extreme examples that people will pretty much believe in no matter what, then again maybe you are one to believe in the ghosts and Gods,....

Keep on keeping on.

Fine if we have to put it that way,...

I deny things without solid proof

You believe things without solid proof,..

Just because you believe it is so,... does not mean you are right,... then again I can say the same about other groups previously mentioned and they will say they are right no matter what,... so I am sure you will do the same.

What constitutes "solid proof". There's mountains of Evidence supporting CC/GW and Man's contribution. Does Evidence not enter into your "solid proof"?

Global warming caused by Man,... is a theory!!! Look up that word,... Theory is not fact,... sure there is evidence supporting that THEORY, but there is no conclusive proof at this time.

There have been many theories that had evidence to support them at the time, that were later proven to be false,....again, I am sure you will say you are right no matter what since it is what you believe.

You have no idea what "theory" means. Go ahead and bold it for our entertainment.

I don't,...??? You must think it means fact,.... to help you out,.. theory is aking to contemplation, speculation, guess or conjecture.

Which is what man's contribution to global warming is,.. nothing more, nothing less, there is no proof. Most people can understand these simple things, but for some like you,... you just clearly cannot admit that you could be wrong

I will leave this debate as is, and let you enjoy your delusional world of being right all the time,...

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: scruffypup

I don't,...??? You must think it means fact,.... to help you out,.. theory is aking to contemplation, speculation, guess or conjecture.

Which is what man's contribution to global warming is,.. nothing more, nothing less, there is no proof. Most people can understand these simple things, but for some like you,... you just clearly cannot admit that you could be wrong

I will leave this debate as is, and let you enjoy your delusional world of being right all the time,...

A scientific theory is not akin to contemplation, speculation, guess, or conjecture. You seriously need to go read up on the definition of the word.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: ericlp
Only an Idiot like the OP that obviously has no clue about amps and watts. Light Bulbs only take up maybe 5-8% of your house hold yearly electrical usage and obviously if your using CFL's, it's gonna amount to even less then that. So, 1 hour with CFL bulbs is not going to amount to a hill of beans while your hot water heater, computers, washer, dryer, refrigerator, etc...etc... is buzzing away. Give it a rest moron. While I didn't observer the hour, it was meant for awareness of just how much coal we are burning to keep the electricity flowing.

Just because you didn't like the idea doesn't mean you gotta piss on everyone that does.

So you admit that it has no practical value (obviously, if you thought it had practical value, you'd likely have participated). Good, then we agree.

Thanks for your support.

ZV

READ VERY CAREFULLY! It's Awareness NOT Conserving if it was meant to conserve then they would tell you to run to your electrical box and flip the mains for a few days.

Sheesh...

Your like talking to a wall... I didn't participate because I was not home... Went out, drank a few martinis and watched a few good bands play.

Earth Hour - Candle Light Dinner & Green Cocktail
Four Points by Sheraton

 

[fisheerman]

I'm buying a new Chevy Suburban today

Just doing my part.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: scruffypup




You are funny,.... however wrong,...

There is data for one thing (higher temps over a period), there is data for another (emissions for a period),... there is someone with a THEORY that they are connected,.... there is no proof,... so denial is not part of this,... that is all I have stated,...

I said it is possible, I also said it could be another man made delusion and used extreme examples that people will pretty much believe in no matter what, then again maybe you are one to believe in the ghosts and Gods,....

Keep on keeping on.

Fine if we have to put it that way,...

I deny things without solid proof

You believe things without solid proof,..

Just because you believe it is so,... does not mean you are right,... then again I can say the same about other groups previously mentioned and they will say they are right no matter what,... so I am sure you will do the same.

What constitutes "solid proof". There's mountains of Evidence supporting CC/GW and Man's contribution. Does Evidence not enter into your "solid proof"?

Global warming caused by Man,... is a theory!!! Look up that word,... Theory is not fact,... sure there is evidence supporting that THEORY, but there is no conclusive proof at this time.

There have been many theories that had evidence to support them at the time, that were later proven to be false,....again, I am sure you will say you are right no matter what since it is what you believe.

You have no idea what "theory" means. Go ahead and bold it for our entertainment.

I don't,...??? You must think it means fact,.... to help you out,.. theory is aking to contemplation, speculation, guess or conjecture.

Which is what man's contribution to global warming is,.. nothing more, nothing less, there is no proof. Most people can understand these simple things, but for some like you,... you just clearly cannot admit that you could be wrong

I will leave this debate as is, and let you enjoy your delusional world of being right all the time,...

Leaving so soon?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: NeoV
Earth Hour was an event, but it's not over - get past your hatred of all things labeled 'liberal' or 'green' and try to be objective.

If you can't see the progress made in the 'awareness' of global warming - whether you want to call it education or something else - then this entire discussion is pointless.

The Prius point - the reason that hybrid cars are sold today is in large part due to the ever growing 'awareness' of global warming - whether it's from sources like Al Gore's film, events like Earth Hour, or just coverage of scientific articles - more and more people are aware of global warming than ever before. How you can deny that is beyond me.

I'm still not sure where you're coming from. I'm not against all things "green".

Some of my own quotes from this very thread:

There's a reason that I live in a house with a programmable thermostat, and double pane insulated windows. There's a reason that I replaced all of my incandescent lamps with fluorescents. There's a reason that I turn off lights when I leave a room.

Conservation, done properly, is a great idea.

I have nothing but respect for those who still conserve even when no-one is watching.

I'm likewise not sure why you persist in your misconception that I think no progress has been made. I have explicitly stated that progress has been made.

We see change now because those efforts are finally starting to pay off. The efforts that began in the 1980s were not one-day celebrations like Earth Hour, they were dedicated efforts at long term education and behavioral change and that's why we're seeing success.

As best I can determine, you simply aren't reading anything I'm actually writing and instead are projecting your stereotypical views of a "conservative" onto me.

Let's try this in bullet points for easy understanding:

- I agree that conservation is important.
- I agree that progress has been made towards increasing awareness.
- I disagree that one-time events like Earth Hour have any significant contribution towards increases in awareness.
- I credit the increases in awareness to long-term educational efforts and not to one-time events like Earth Hour.

As far as the Prius point, I'm still failing to see how that car exists due to a logical fallacy as you claim.

Regarding global warming, I have never once in this thread denied it. Never. Nor do I have any intention of doing so.

The logical fallacy that I pointed out in your own previous post was that you chose to discount the validity of an observation on human nature (namely, that people like others to know about the good they do anonymously) simply because of the person from which the observation came. It's the basic form of ad hominem. The observation has nothing to do with global warming whatsoever.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: ericlp
Only an Idiot like the OP that obviously has no clue about amps and watts. Light Bulbs only take up maybe 5-8% of your house hold yearly electrical usage and obviously if your using CFL's, it's gonna amount to even less then that. So, 1 hour with CFL bulbs is not going to amount to a hill of beans while your hot water heater, computers, washer, dryer, refrigerator, etc...etc... is buzzing away. Give it a rest moron. While I didn't observer the hour, it was meant for awareness of just how much coal we are burning to keep the electricity flowing.

Just because you didn't like the idea doesn't mean you gotta piss on everyone that does.

So you admit that it has no practical value (obviously, if you thought it had practical value, you'd likely have participated). Good, then we agree.

Thanks for your support.

ZV

READ VERY CAREFULLY! It's Awareness NOT Conserving if it was meant to conserve then they would tell you to run to your electrical box and flip the mains for a few days.

Sheesh...

Your like talking to a wall... I didn't participate because I was not home... Went out, drank a few martinis and watched a few good bands play.

Earth Hour - Candle Light Dinner & Green Cocktail
Four Points by Sheraton

How many of those carbon-emitting candles were there?

And you've apparently missed the several places in this thread where I've pointed out that one-time events are much less effective at truly raising awareness than long-term educational efforts. Events like Earth Hour are for ego-stroking. It's the people who are in the schools and making long-term behavioral changes who are really helping.

ZV

 

[Bacstar]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: sandorski
It's not done to cause some major Environmental Benefit. It's done to remind people of an Issue. By your standard Veterans/Remembrance Day is just as pointless as it doesn't bring back the Dead.

Cause everyone forgets about global warming

Especially when it's still below freezing and dumping snow...

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Bacstar

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: sandorski
It's not done to cause some major Environmental Benefit. It's done to remind people of an Issue. By your standard Veterans/Remembrance Day is just as pointless as it doesn't bring back the Dead.

Cause everyone forgets about global warming

Especially when it's still below freezing and dumping snow...

Cause if it's cold when I open my door that means global warming isn't real, amirite!?

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: Bacstar

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: sandorski
It's not done to cause some major Environmental Benefit. It's done to remind people of an Issue. By your standard Veterans/Remembrance Day is just as pointless as it doesn't bring back the Dead.

Cause everyone forgets about global warming

Especially when it's still below freezing and dumping snow...

It snowed about 6 times in Seattle this year. Everybody had global warming on their mind. I know serious climate change is just part of living on the planet (human contribution or no) but it still kinda sucks to be in the middle of it.

 

[cwjerome]

The backlash against the global warming clerics and enviro-nutters in general can take the form of cynical, spiteful actions that serve no practical purpose other than to inflame.

Earth Hour: Spread the word and give people a chance to pause and reflect on how they can more earth-friendly. OK, fairly harmless... all you'll do is make people wonder what's up your butt by attacking it. The reality is we can all be better stewards of our resources.

If you want to expend some time and energy, I would focus on the extreme groups that are clawing their way into our laws to advance their quack agendas.