Honda's reputation in Japan

[madoka]

I read this comment on another website and wanted to know if this guy is correct.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...parison-test-chrysler-pacifica-toyota-sienna/

It seems like Honda in America is going in the direction of Honda Japan, which has always been known as a maker of low-quality cheap cars with questionable reliability here in Japan.

When I moved from the States to Japan many years ago, I was shocked at the difference in perception for Honda between consumers in the U.S. and Japan. I quickly gave up on the idea of buying a Honda in Japan when I was told in no uncertain terms that no self-respecting guy would be caught dead driving a Honda here.

 

[sdifox]

Don't worry, they are heading tbat way in NA as well

 

[tcG]

That comment makes it seem like Honda's poor reputation in Japan applies to pre-2000 Honda, which I'm sure isn't true. For Honda's of the last 10 years or so, sure.

~1983-1999 Hondas are just as well engineered, reliable, and well built as Toyota and Nissan from the period, which is to say, amazingly well. Has that guy ever heard of an NSX, S2000, Prelude? How about the legendary VTEC engines which were reliable as anything.

 

[PricklyPete]

Honestly I don't know...but I had a good friend from Japan in the 1990's who told me that Toyota/Honda were well regarded and that Mazda was the brand that people "looked down on". Of course that is just one person's perspective...and just based on perspectives on this forum...I imagine there is a lot of variance over there.

It is kind of how many Americans view VW as unreliable, but British people consider them to be top quality (for mainstream brands). Perception and empirical data rarely equate.

 

[Rifter]

That comment makes it seem like Honda's poor reputation in Japan applies to pre-2000 Honda, which I'm sure isn't true. For Honda's of the last 10 years or so, sure.

~1983-1999 Hondas are just as well engineered, reliable, and well built as Toyota and Nissan from the period, which is to say, amazingly well. Has that guy ever heard of an NSX, S2000, Prelude? How about the legendary VTEC engines which were reliable as anything.

Exactly this, pre 2000 hondas were bulletproof, post 2000 not so much.

 

[FIVR]

VWs are legitimately utter sh*t cars (all VAG except porche are) and Honda are overpriced for what you get. Less reliable than Toyota + more expensive.



I always figured people bought them because they didn't know anything about cars, and assumed any Japanese car was reliable.

 

[gorobei]

as others have stated subjective opinions are individual and not representative, so it doesnt really mean much. but there are some other forces at work.

i read some article online years ago about how JP (and EU to some degree) more or less pushes consumers to buy new cars on a fairly accelerated schedule thru tax incentives on new cars and increased lic/insurance costs on older cars. ostensibly under the premise of newer cars are safer. when the laws/economics virtually guarantee that car buyers are swapping cars every 3-5 years, there is far less incentive for makers to build something that will last 10+ years. t
the US has a far larger percentage of buyers who will keep a car for 10+ years assuming nothing major goes wrong, so automakers cant rely on them switching to a new car before the thing falls apart due to planned/unplanned obsolesence.

also brands in the US arent really the same in their home markets. mercedes is a lux brand in the us, but makes garbage trucks, classB, utility van, etc up and down the spectrum in germany. so they will have cheaper lines/models that fill all niches, so they wont necessarily be known as a lux brand in germany. i imagine honda domestic market with all of its micro cars for the narrow city streets skews quality perception a bit.

 

[gorcorps]

I don't know about all of Japan, but I've been on a couple business trips to Japan as somebody who makes automotive steel for Japanese automakers (and American ones too). I can tell you that Toyota seems to be king (Especially their Crown brand, which isn't in the US really, and sits close to Lexus in terms of cost and amenities). The draw of Toyota is partly due to national pride from what I understand, as the Toyota way challenged the ideals set up by Ford that were being used in the West at the time. It's hard to describe all the little differences between what Ford had started and what Toyota introduced, but it was disruptive enough that the Toyota production system showed efficiency gains that weren't utilized yet. It was proof that Japan had the know how to be a manufacturing power, and the fact that Toyota has pretty much kept much of their core values through their decades of growth gives people confidence that they know what they're doing, and do it better than anyone. Honda simply doesn't have that level of history. You also have to remember that Honda started as a motor maker first, with a large focus on motorcycles. Even today they have their toes in a lot of stuff... motorcycles, yard equipment, cars, etc. They don't have the focus that Toyota has.

Good video about Toyota's system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjdil2nBCf0

Not related to the Japanese side, but Toyota has done a very good job at making sure their American plants operate like their Japanese plants. You have pretty impressive consistency between Toyota Japan and Toyota USA.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I don't know about all of Japan, but I've been on a couple business trips to Japan as somebody who makes automotive steel for Japanese automakers (and American ones too). I can tell you that Toyota seems to be king (Especially their Crown brand, which isn't in the US really, and sits close to Lexus in terms of cost and amenities). The draw of Toyota is partly due to national pride from what I understand, as the Toyota way challenged the ideals set up by Ford that were being used in the West at the time. It's hard to describe all the little differences between what Ford had started and what Toyota introduced, but it was disruptive enough that the Toyota production system showed efficiency gains that weren't utilized yet. It was proof that Japan had the know how to be a manufacturing power, and the fact that Toyota has pretty much kept much of their core values through their decades of growth gives people confidence that they know what they're doing, and do it better than anyone. Honda simply doesn't have that level of history. You also have to remember that Honda started as a motor maker first, with a large focus on motorcycles. Even today they have their toes in a lot of stuff... motorcycles, yard equipment, cars, etc. They don't have the focus that Toyota has.

Good video about Toyota's system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjdil2nBCf0

Not related to the Japanese side, but Toyota has done a very good job at making sure their American plants operate like their Japanese plants. You have pretty impressive consistency between Toyota Japan and Toyota USA.

good video. one thing that seems to stand out to me is the concept of jidoka - that people can stop the production process when needed to ensure quality.

when i interviewed at ford, the guys told me that a stop in the F150 line was a loss of $1M/hr. who wants to be the person holding that up?

even where i work - in a much much smaller company than toyota or ford - there's resistance to change (or improve) something in the field, even if our quality folks say everything is kosher (don't get me started on quality engineering...ugh.). I think the idea of truly being committed to building a quality product goes a long way both with employees and customers. It's not just some bullshit mission statement from Toyota - they clearly put that into practice. Curious how many other companies truly put this into practice (we just got some nice corporate BS screensavers about "customer satisfaction starts with me!"...i really want to punch whoever thought that was a good idea)

 

[gorcorps]

good video. one thing that seems to stand out to me is the concept of jidoka - that people can stop the production process when needed to ensure quality.

when i interviewed at ford, the guys told me that a stop in the F150 line was a loss of $1M/hr. who wants to be the person holding that up?

even where i work - in a much much smaller company than toyota or ford - there's resistance to change (or improve) something in the field, even if our quality folks say everything is kosher (don't get me started on quality engineering...ugh.). I think the idea of truly being committed to building a quality product goes a long way both with employees and customers. It's not just some bullshit mission statement from Toyota - they clearly put that into practice. Curious how many other companies truly put this into practice (we just got some nice corporate BS screensavers about "customer satisfaction starts with me!"...i really want to punch whoever thought that was a good idea)

Yeah, it's impressive to see in person as well. The video doesn't go into a lot of detail about it, but they always have a team leader or two on the floor at all times. Those leaders have experience with a lot of the assembly jobs, and when one of the team members stop the line due to a problem, that leader makes a B-line directly to that station to help get it solved ASAP. Usually it's a quick fix that only takes them down for a minute or two because of their setup.

 

[ringtail]

Owned a whole series of Honda and Acura cars, and Honda motorcycles.
Hond is the BEST out of Japan...better than Nissan, Toyota, the Honda motorcycles have PROVED out better than Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki....Honda REALLY IS the top tier in quality, Suzuki next below Honda, then Yamaha and last Kawasaki. However, the distance between them all is only very slight. No doubt Honda is pick of the litter based on QUALITY.

In QUALITY I rank them as HONDA, KTM, BMW, SUZUKI, YAMAHA, Kawasaki, and then the too-expensive electric motorcycles out of Santa Cruz and Texas. Obviously this ignores the "fat bastards" bikes like Victory, Harley Davidson, etc. that nobody except a few old rich fat bastards (Victory/Indian) and mental midget posers (want that Harley Davidson image oh soooo bad) have.

A Honda Africa Twin for around $13,000+ is probably a better all-round motorcycle than a KTM 1200 for around $22,000. Or, I seek a deal on a 2014+ Suzuki V Strom DL 1000 to run around our twisty 8000ft mountains and bikini beaches.

 

[eng2d2]

Owned a whole series of Honda and Acura cars, and Honda motorcycles.
Hond is the BEST out of Japan...better than Nissan, Toyota, the Honda motorcycles have PROVED out better than Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki....Honda REALLY IS the top tier in quality, Suzuki next below Honda, then Yamaha and last Kawasaki. However, the distance between them all is only very slight. No doubt Honda is pick of the litter based on QUALITY.

In QUALITY I rank them as HONDA, KTM, BMW, SUZUKI, YAMAHA, Kawasaki, and then the too-expensive electric motorcycles out of Santa Cruz and Texas. Obviously this ignores the "fat bastards" bikes like Victory, Harley Davidson, etc. that nobody except a few old rich fat bastards (Victory/Indian) and mental midget posers (want that Harley Davidson image oh soooo bad) have.

A Honda Africa Twin for around $13,000+ is probably a better all-round motorcycle than a KTM 1200 for around $22,000. Or, I seek a deal on a 2014+ Suzuki V Strom DL 1000 to run around our twisty 8000ft mountains and bikini beaches.

Not in my case. Toyota never gave me any problem as much as honda

 

[sdifox]

Not in my case. Toyota never gave me any problem as much as honda

My 2012 Odyssey with 120k km needs an engine rebuild. Piston rings don't seal properly leading to oil getting to plugs.

Good thing they are covering it.

 

[pauldun170]

My 2012 Odyssey with 120k km needs an engine rebuild. Piston rings don't seal properly leading to oil getting to plugs.

Good thing they are covering it.

Honda Piston ring shenanigans - Car edition
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...tles-class-action-suit-over-oil-burning-claim
2008-12 Accord,
2008-13 Odyssey,
2009-13 Pilot,
2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour
(Thought the second gen Honda Insight would be on there as well. They're known for it too.

Honda Piston ring shenanigans - Motorcycle edition
2008-2009 CBR1000rr
http://classactionlawsuitsinthenews...n-ring-engine-oil-class-action-lawsuit-filed/

 

[WilliamM2]

I read this comment on another website and wanted to know if this guy is correct.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...parison-test-chrysler-pacifica-toyota-sienna/

Sounds like he doesn't know what he is talking about. If their rep is so bad in Japan, why is Honda the #2 selling brand there?

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/japan/2017-q1-japan-best-selling-car-brands-models/

 

[sdifox]

Honda Piston ring shenanigans - Car edition
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...tles-class-action-suit-over-oil-burning-claim
2008-12 Accord,
2008-13 Odyssey,
2009-13 Pilot,
2010-11 Accord Crosstour and 2012 Crosstour
(Thought the second gen Honda Insight would be on there as well. They're known for it too.

Honda Piston ring shenanigans - Motorcycle edition
2008-2009 CBR1000rr
http://classactionlawsuitsinthenews...n-ring-engine-oil-class-action-lawsuit-filed/

I also had to rip out my MB E350 4Matic's engine to replace the balancing shaft after 110k km. The chain ate the balancing shaft sprocket. MB did not cover that one. There was a class action in US and they lost so they had to pay for repair but it means squat here.

My Mazda Protege went through three water pumps in 140k km and my 1990 Camry needed new satellite gears in the tranny after 100k km...

I should not own cars.

 

[bradly1101]

I was looking at the top-ranked Pacifica but ended up going with a Sienna. Mine's been solid, and although the Chrysler is highly rated by JD Power in "initial quality", I think that survey is meaningless, especially after reading these scary threads:

http://www.pacificaforums.com/forum/474-chrysler-pacifica-minivan-issues-problems/

 

[lxskllr]

there's resistance to change (or improve) something in the field, even if our quality folks say everything is kosher (don't get me started on quality engineering...ugh.).

I'm a fan of releasing early, and iterating often. That applies a bit less to large manufacturing. Your initial release should be solid, but your ear should be to the ground looking for ways to improve your product through field tests. You can do math all day long at your desk, but it only gives an approximation of field use. Nothing like real world data by people using stuff the way they use them, and not under lab conditions to see where deficiencies lie.

 

[rstrohkirch]

Owned a whole series of Honda and Acura cars, and Honda motorcycles.

In QUALITY I rank them as HONDA, KTM, BMW, SUZUKI, YAMAHA, Kawasaki, and then the too-expensive electric motorcycles out of Santa Cruz and Texas.

A Honda Africa Twin for around $13,000+ is probably a better all-round motorcycle than a KTM 1200 for around $22,000.

You're doing all this ranking and ordering and yet only say you've owned Honda motorcycles. What specific models have you owned from other brands? I've owned dozens, literally over 30 bikes since I've been riding. Street bikes and dirt bikes. I've owned multiples of every brand you listed and others like Ducati. I would have a very hard time assigning any kind of order of quality to these companies. First, without direct experience with multiple products for each and every company you don't have the proper experience to come up with any list. Second, every company on your list has put out shitty products and quality products. Third, when you buy used it's the maintenance of the previous owners that shine through and not the initial quality of the product.

 

[JimKiler]

I don't know about all of Japan, but I've been on a couple business trips to Japan as somebody who makes automotive steel for Japanese automakers (and American ones too). I can tell you that Toyota seems to be king (Especially their Crown brand, which isn't in the US really, and sits close to Lexus in terms of cost and amenities). The draw of Toyota is partly due to national pride from what I understand, as the Toyota way challenged the ideals set up by Ford that were being used in the West at the time. It's hard to describe all the little differences between what Ford had started and what Toyota introduced, but it was disruptive enough that the Toyota production system showed efficiency gains that weren't utilized yet. It was proof that Japan had the know how to be a manufacturing power, and the fact that Toyota has pretty much kept much of their core values through their decades of growth gives people confidence that they know what they're doing, and do it better than anyone. Honda simply doesn't have that level of history. You also have to remember that Honda started as a motor maker first, with a large focus on motorcycles. Even today they have their toes in a lot of stuff... motorcycles, yard equipment, cars, etc. They don't have the focus that Toyota has.

Good video about Toyota's system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjdil2nBCf0

Not related to the Japanese side, but Toyota has done a very good job at making sure their American plants operate like their Japanese plants. You have pretty impressive consistency between Toyota Japan and Toyota USA.

You should listen to this story of GM learning from Toyota and applying absolutely nothing to any of their other factories:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/403/nummi

On a seperate note both Toyota and Honda will fight US regulators to the nail over any recall. Don't take a lack of recalls as quality in cars. Personally i have had 3 Mazda's that i loved and now have a Honda Odyssey which i hope is reliable but to challenge someone else's post it was $3K less than the comparable Toyota Sienna.

 

[thilanliyan]

Our family Toyota Sienna did nearly 700,000 kms by the time we retired it. Barely needed any maintenance. If I wanted something extremely reliable I would definitely go Toyota. However, their cars are pretty boring, even the Lexus models (except the LFA but that's supercar territory).

 

[gorcorps]

Our family Toyota Sienna did nearly 700,000 kms by the time we retired it. Barely needed any maintenance. If I wanted something extremely reliable I would definitely go Toyota. However, their cars are pretty boring, even the Lexus models (except the LFA but that's supercar territory).

True story

I'm a big fan of my highlander from a utility standpoint, but it's definitely the most boring out of all the options. The new CX9 by far has the best interior, but the cockpit felt a bit cramped in the leg area when I test drove it. The Pilot also looked a little nicer than the highlander, but I felt it was the least comfortable out of the 3 (personal preference). The highlander isn't a looker, but it's comfortable enough for how I drive, and there's so many useful features that I've become used to that nobody else has matched.

I think they're starting to get some better designs out there though. I think the new RXs look pretty sharp on the Lexus side.

 

[jdoggg12]

Owned a whole series of Honda and Acura cars, and Honda motorcycles.
Hond is the BEST out of Japan...better than Nissan, Toyota, the Honda motorcycles have PROVED out better than Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki....Honda REALLY IS the top tier in quality, Suzuki next below Honda, then Yamaha and last Kawasaki. However, the distance between them all is only very slight. No doubt Honda is pick of the litter based on QUALITY.

In QUALITY I rank them as HONDA, KTM, BMW, SUZUKI, YAMAHA, Kawasaki, and then the too-expensive electric motorcycles out of Santa Cruz and Texas. Obviously this ignores the "fat bastards" bikes like Victory, Harley Davidson, etc. that nobody except a few old rich fat bastards (Victory/Indian) and mental midget posers (want that Harley Davidson image oh soooo bad) have.

A Honda Africa Twin for around $13,000+ is probably a better all-round motorcycle than a KTM 1200 for around $22,000. Or, I seek a deal on a 2014+ Suzuki V Strom DL 1000 to run around our twisty 8000ft mountains and bikini beaches.

Not sure what you're basing your information on (I don't disagree with your take on the cars), however, for motorcycles, Yamaha is, and has been, the highest quality and most reliable manufacturer. I've been a rider for around 2 decades and have worked in the industry for a long time as a distributor for (mostly performance oriented) parts/accessories. Dealers and shops consistently herald Yamaha as the brand to beat for performance/dollar and overall quality.

I don't like suzuki's transmissions because they feel clunky, my SV650 and GSXR 750 felt like throwing a wrench into gears by comparison to either of my R6's or WR250... that said, they're very reliable.

Honda is, like their cars, the vanilla option. They tend to be aesthetically tame, perform admirably but not outstanding, and be very reliable but not at the top of the heap like their 4 wheeled cousins.

As for the $13k CRF1000L vs the "$22k KTM" comparison... why are you comparing it to the 1290 Super Adventure R? The direct KTM competitor is the 1090 Adventure/Adventure R and is $14.6k... you won't find me arguing that the KTM will be more reliable (my KTM is in the shop for warranty repairs as I type this) however it's a mildly better machine for it's intended purpose - off road touring. As to the V Strom... well, most motorcyclists know that it's one of the best values and overall can't-go-wrong choices in the but... it's still 2nd fiddle to the Super Tenere.

...I digress... Point is, Honda is weaker in the reliability world for MC than it is for autos... that said, not by much.

PS - I'm far from a Harley "fan" but to dismiss the brand that makes up 50% of the US motorcycle sales as one for "fat bastards" and "mental midget posers" is just... ignorant. Love them or hate them, HD has the largest AND broadest market penetration of any manufacturer.

 

[evident]

Been living here for a while. Hondas are pretty popular and are all over the place. while my japanese isnt good there's always hondas in their domestic car mags, and even the cheap hondas i've been in are way nicer than some other makes, daihatsu for example. The few times i talked to people here about cars mitsubishi was not regarded highly at all. So yeah, random internet post doesnt know what the fuck he's talking about...

 

[clok1966]

Perception is a powerful thing, all these comments are based on PEOPLE and we are BIASED as hell, and whoever used Consumer Reports.. wow, just wow.. They are an OK gauge.. but this is the Magazine that took exact same models with different brand names and rated one great and the other crap (same EXACT CAR!!!!) one was US branded and one was not.. GM/FORD and Chrysler all imported cars from JAPAN and re-badged them.. And Consumer reports had the re-badged American cars all ranked lower.. Stupid They have since corrected this.. but in the 90's where horrible biased. its human nature to have BIASES, and I can imagine it the same in Japan. Buy the car that works well for you. I have owned almost every brand and had good and bad.. even the car brand I LIKE have caused me some grief, and car brands i didn't have shown me 1 or 2 cars are not always a complete judge of a brand and have worked fine. Each brand has lemons, plain and simple and even if you love and Accord or Camry (two of the best rated cars ever) you can get a bad one. One of the best cars i ever had was the Ugliest car i have ever owned a Suzuki Aerio, its got close to 200,000 (not some massive amount of miles really) and i have not replaced anything but oil and filters and front brake shoes (oh an tires).. not a damn thing else.. I know something has to break soon.. but... damn not a thing yet.. I wish it didnt look like dog vomit, i might drive it another 100,000... or it could fall apart when i look at it tomorrow.. Buy the car you want and has reasonable reviews.. Life it sot short to worry about people who are paid to make you buy stuff telling you which to buy.