Honda kills everything cool about themselves

[Apex]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

Does it make sense to kill so much R&D?

I'm guessing they're shelving the projects, not erasing all memory of them.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: XZeroII
*lawnmower sounds*


Honda has always been the Walmart of automobile companies (except for the size). They thrive on value. Low prices, middle of the line quality. It's where you buy your car when you have no money. Honda: The Ramen Noodle of car companies.

Dude...........wait.......what? That makes absolutely no sense.

Sorry. I was on a roll and kept going 🙂

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well one could also argue that their performance line of cars enhanced their image and brought a hell of a lot of sales to their volume products like the Civic.

Honda basically started the import craze and now they've abandoned it completely. Unfortunately, I think we'll be dealing with fart can Civics for many years to come. :disgust:

You think people buy a Civic because they want to be a boy racer? Man, do you have the demographic wrong. They sell them because they are cheap, they are reliable, and they get good mileage. Civic SI sales represent a very small portion of Civic sales overall...it has always been this way.

As for performance cars in this country that market evolved and I think they basically took the American approach to performance cars but they did it with the smaller, lighter cars they already had.

Americans: Put a bigger engine in a 3,500lb car to make it go faster
Honda: Put a bigger engine in a 2,000lb car to make it go faster

Tell me which one will have better economies of scale? Tell me which one is doing better today?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Does all of this seem a little too short sighted?

I mean, hopefully in 1-2 years, the economy will be chugging along again.

Does it make sense to kill so much R&D?

YES!!!

Speaking as an accountant who works for a manufacturing company in the US, you need to choose which projects are going to net you the most money in the short term and the long term and weigh those when you invest in the future but you need to make sure you remain solvent above all else. If that means cutting development in the short term in racing or delaying opening a new truck manufacturing plant after you've already invested the capital and completed the building (Toyota) then so be it.

Sometimes you have to make the tough decisions. It's a part of doing business.

Begging for money from the United States government and the American people is not a part of doing business. It's a part of running a business into the ground. It should be a text book example of how not to do business actually.

 

[sniperruff]

They are producing the FCX Clarity. I love fast cars but I have to admit that is a very cool car.

The S2000 was a bit long on the tooth anyway. Just say farewell to it like the Prelude, NSX or the Legend. They WERE good cars, but killing them off was probably more like the first Michael Jordan retirement.

And Thomsbrain forgot the Civic Del Sol. I'd consider that to be a convertible.

I have to agree that Acura's lineup is a little thin: an entry luxury sedan that's out-styled and out-gunned by Nissan (G37) and Toyota (IS250), a mid-range AWD sedan that has a V6, and not no full-size sedan. Their only saving grace is the MDX and the SUV is not the most popular vehicle now.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: senseamp
You can get reliability and economy from a Honda Accord. What's the point of paying thousands more for an Acura if economy is the top concern?
If you want to command a higher profit margin, you have to be cool too. You have to have an aspirational product. I would WANT to have an RWD Acura sedan or coupe, and willing to spend ten thousand over an Accord EX. Not so with a FWD Acura TL.

And sometimes you want those bread and butter cars with a little more luxury, which is pretty much what acura stands for. Hence, they don't cost as big of a premium over Honda as a Lexus does over Toyota. Honda never liked big power, they've liked small and efficient. By killing these things, they're actually going back to what they focused on as a company.

That's the main problem. Honda is all about what they like or think you should be driving. How about they ask the consumer what they want in this segment.

You can't compare them to car brands in a different class. Yea, 3, 5, 7 series aren't halo cars for BMW, but comparable cars are for Honda. For example, Nissan has their GTR, which is definitely their halo car. It doesn't compete with a halo cars from Ferrari like the enzo. By your logic, Nissan should go and build a v12 million dollar car so they can have a "real" halo car?

This comparison makes zero sense. After S2K is done, Honda will not have anything that competes with even a Miata, much less GT-R or Enzo. Plus GT-R is a "real" halo car for Nissan.
The fact that a car similar to a 3 series would be a halo car for Acura shows how far below BMW Acura is. BMW's entry model would be good enough to be a halo car for Acura. 🙂

From their sales figures, plenty of people pay extra over the accord for the fwd TL.

Yeah, TL sales are down 40% with a brand new model. Plus they are doing so great, they are cutting R&D and getting into survival mode.

American Honda Vehicle Sales For December 2008
Month-to-Date
December December DSR**
2008 2007 % Chg.
------- ------- -----
Acura Division Total 10,680 17,582 -39.3%
-------------------- ------- ------- -----
RSX 0 1
TL * 3,607 5,988 -39.8%
TSX 2,304 2,838 -18.8%
RL 245 586 -58.2%
MDX * 3,383 5,906 -42.7%
RDX * 1,141 2,263 -49.6%
--------- ------- ------- -----
Selling Days 26 26

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well one could also argue that their performance line of cars enhanced their image and brought a hell of a lot of sales to their volume products like the Civic.

Honda basically started the import craze and now they've abandoned it completely. Unfortunately, I think we'll be dealing with fart can Civics for many years to come. :disgust:

First of all, the Civic is the ultimate commuter car for the common man.

Second, I don't think Honda was really doing anything great at the high-end. The S2000 was crushed by a plethora of far better cars in its price range. It was basically a glorified Civic with a high-revving engine.

People don't buy a Honda for a big V8. They buy a Honda for efficiency, good design, and reliability.

I think that part of the reason for this cutback may be the shift toward Hybrid/Hydrogen/Diesel/Electric motors.

 

[dawheat]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well one could also argue that their performance line of cars enhanced their image and brought a hell of a lot of sales to their volume products like the Civic.

Honda basically started the import craze and now they've abandoned it completely. Unfortunately, I think we'll be dealing with fart can Civics for many years to come. :disgust:

First of all, the Civic is the ultimate commuter car for the common man.

Second, I don't think Honda was really doing anything great at the high-end. The S2000 was crushed by a plethora of far better cars in its price range. It was basically a glorified Civic with a high-revving engine.

People don't buy a Honda for a big V8. They buy a Honda for efficiency, good design, and reliability.

I think that part of the reason for this cutback may be the shift toward Hybrid/Hydrogen/Diesel/Electric motors.

I was with you until the "It was basically a glorified Civic with a high-revving engine."

A bespoke RWD platform with the most rigid chassis at the time for a convertible, mated to the best 6-speed gearbox 9 years running, LSD, 50:50 weight distribution, and a great but edgy suspension is a glorified FWD Civic?

Sure it got long in the tooth but in the first several years of this decade, you were getting Boxster S performance at 60% of the price.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain

Originally posted by: Strk
So Honda is going to be what, a company with a half dozen or so vehicles, each with three or four trim levels and the only options will be color? This reminds me of that bit on Top Gear when they were making fun of the German companies. You can either have it in black, grey or black!

You mean, exactly what they were in the early 90's glory years?

Civic, Accord, Prelude, Legend. Three trim levels on most models.

No high performance cars. No trucks. No vans. No big luxury cars. No convertibles.

And yet, they were probably the best company on the planet for segments in which they competed.

And this sounds like a bad strategy why?

Their CEO was recently named the most important man in the automobile world by Motor Trend (not that I'm a huge fan of Motor Trend). The primary reason he got the award is that he had the foresight not to overextend the brand (and even that conservatism has proved to be too liberal for the current climate). They had two cars in Car and Driver's 10 Best this year (some years they do even better), and both models will continue to be built.

The S2000 was hand-built and likely had an extremely low profit margin. All the Germans are moving out of big engines as fast as they can. BMW is killing the V10 and the V12. Mercedes is killing the V12. For Honda to focus on their critically-acclaimed V6 range rather than their V10 or V8 is a similar decision. Many companies are dropping niche models such as coupes and convertible versions of cars. Efficiency is the name of the game, not only for cars, but for companies.

You guys need to realize that there is a difference between making money while positioning the brand for the future and making halo cars that most of us will never buy, even if we consider ourselves car lovers. One option isn't too sexy, but it means the company will survive to build that S3000 in ten years. The other option is sexy and results in bankruptcy.

Think of this as doing the exact opposite of what the Big Three did over the last 20 years. That sounds like a pretty damn good idea to me.

Thank you for saving me the time of typing this all out myself. :thumbsup:

ZV

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: senseamp
You can get reliability and economy from a Honda Accord. What's the point of paying thousands more for an Acura if economy is the top concern?
If you want to command a higher profit margin, you have to be cool too. You have to have an aspirational product. I would WANT to have an RWD Acura sedan or coupe, and willing to spend ten thousand over an Accord EX. Not so with a FWD Acura TL.

And sometimes you want those bread and butter cars with a little more luxury, which is pretty much what acura stands for. Hence, they don't cost as big of a premium over Honda as a Lexus does over Toyota. Honda never liked big power, they've liked small and efficient. By killing these things, they're actually going back to what they focused on as a company.

That's the main problem. Honda is all about what they like or think you should be driving. How about they ask the consumer what they want in this segment.

Hmm, sounds like the customer has spoken, and they want bread-and-butter.

 

[SoundTheSurrender]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
*lawnmower sounds*


Honda has always been the Walmart of automobile companies (except for the size). They thrive on value. Low prices, middle of the line quality. It's where you buy your car when you have no money. Honda: The Ramen Noodle of car companies.

What are you talking about? What car company has been as innovative as Honda? I don't see any other car company creating the Clarity? If anything GM is the Ramen Noodle car company.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well one could also argue that their performance line of cars enhanced their image and brought a hell of a lot of sales to their volume products like the Civic.

Honda basically started the import craze and now they've abandoned it completely. Unfortunately, I think we'll be dealing with fart can Civics for many years to come. :disgust:

I am so fvcking sick of those things and the douche bags that drive them.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well one could also argue that their performance line of cars enhanced their image and brought a hell of a lot of sales to their volume products like the Civic.

Honda basically started the import craze and now they've abandoned it completely. Unfortunately, I think we'll be dealing with fart can Civics for many years to come. :disgust:

You think people buy a Civic because they want to be a boy racer? Man, do you have the demographic wrong. They sell them because they are cheap, they are reliable, and they get good mileage. Civic SI sales represent a very small portion of Civic sales overall...it has always been this way.

(snipped since only responding to the part above)

Civic Si? Boy racer wishes! Most of the (insert ricer brand here) are base model econobox cars that couldn't outrun a stock Civic Si. Loud? Yes. Fast? No. 😉

 

[Throckmorton]

Every affordable roadster is now gone, except the Miata, which Mazda just restyled/bangled to compete with those garish Kappa twins.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: XZeroII
*lawnmower sounds*


Honda has always been the Walmart of automobile companies (except for the size). They thrive on value. Low prices, middle of the line quality. It's where you buy your car when you have no money. Honda: The Ramen Noodle of car companies.

Huh? I think you have a warped view of where Honda is in the market and the reasons people buy their cars. Maybe you're old and have the 70s mindset that Japanese = lower quality?

 

[sniperruff]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Every affordable roadster is now gone, except the Miata, which Mazda just restyled/bangled to compete with those garish Kappa twins.

There's also a number of options from GM. The S2000 was more performance-oriented and was never meant to be affordable anyway.

I guess if one wants a convertible they can buy a PT Cruiser convertible.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well one could also argue that their performance line of cars enhanced their image and brought a hell of a lot of sales to their volume products like the Civic.

Honda basically started the import craze and now they've abandoned it completely. Unfortunately, I think we'll be dealing with fart can Civics for many years to come. :disgust:

First of all, the Civic is the ultimate commuter car for the common man.

Second, I don't think Honda was really doing anything great at the high-end. The S2000 was crushed by a plethora of far better cars in its price range. It was basically a glorified Civic with a high-revving engine.

People don't buy a Honda for a big V8. They buy a Honda for efficiency, good design, and reliability.

I think that part of the reason for this cutback may be the shift toward Hybrid/Hydrogen/Diesel/Electric motors.

Well not everyone can afford the SI and Honda gets plenty of people buying Civics because they have "VTEC yo!" and have sold them on that premise for many years.

What makes the Civic more appealing to a teenage kid? It's reliability or practicality? No, more likely it's because of the rep that Honda has with that crowd due to their past achievements.

 

[evident]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender

Originally posted by: XZeroII
*lawnmower sounds*


Honda has always been the Walmart of automobile companies (except for the size). They thrive on value. Low prices, middle of the line quality. It's where you buy your car when you have no money. Honda: The Ramen Noodle of car companies.

What are you talking about? What car company has been as innovative as Honda? I don't see any other car company creating the Clarity? If anything GM is the Ramen Noodle car company.

:thumbsup: honda will always be cooler in my book than BIG OL AMERICAN V8 GM BIG CARS ESCLADE WOOHOHOOOO 9/11!!! lameness. Don't forget, honda and toyota forced the big 3 to make better sedans and better cars in general

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: ayabe
Well one could also argue that their performance line of cars enhanced their image and brought a hell of a lot of sales to their volume products like the Civic.

Honda basically started the import craze and now they've abandoned it completely. Unfortunately, I think we'll be dealing with fart can Civics for many years to come. :disgust:

First of all, the Civic is the ultimate commuter car for the common man.

Second, I don't think Honda was really doing anything great at the high-end. The S2000 was crushed by a plethora of far better cars in its price range. It was basically a glorified Civic with a high-revving engine.

People don't buy a Honda for a big V8. They buy a Honda for efficiency, good design, and reliability.

I think that part of the reason for this cutback may be the shift toward Hybrid/Hydrogen/Diesel/Electric motors.

Well not everyone can afford the SI and Honda gets plenty of people buying Civics because they have "VTEC yo!" and have sold them on that premise for many years.

What makes the Civic more appealing to a teenage kid? It's reliability or practicality? No, more likely it's because of the rep that Honda has with that crowd due to their past achievements.

Another factor is the resale value. Buying a used Honda for the right price, you can drive it for a while, keep it running, and sell it for about what you paid for it in many cases.

As for new, you could also say that you could buy a Civic or a Cobalt, and both are decent vehicles, but you're much more likely to be able to trade the Civic in for a good price in 4-5 years than the Cobalt will be worth.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: senseamp
You can get reliability and economy from a Honda Accord. What's the point of paying thousands more for an Acura if economy is the top concern?
If you want to command a higher profit margin, you have to be cool too. You have to have an aspirational product. I would WANT to have an RWD Acura sedan or coupe, and willing to spend ten thousand over an Accord EX. Not so with a FWD Acura TL.

And sometimes you want those bread and butter cars with a little more luxury, which is pretty much what acura stands for. Hence, they don't cost as big of a premium over Honda as a Lexus does over Toyota. Honda never liked big power, they've liked small and efficient. By killing these things, they're actually going back to what they focused on as a company.

That's the main problem. Honda is all about what they like or think you should be driving. How about they ask the consumer what they want in this segment.

Hmm, sounds like the customer has spoken, and they want bread-and-butter.

There is room for bread and butter. But Acura is trying to sell bread and butter in a luxury restaurant 🙂

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: evident

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender

Originally posted by: XZeroII
*lawnmower sounds*


Honda has always been the Walmart of automobile companies (except for the size). They thrive on value. Low prices, middle of the line quality. It's where you buy your car when you have no money. Honda: The Ramen Noodle of car companies.

What are you talking about? What car company has been as innovative as Honda? I don't see any other car company creating the Clarity? If anything GM is the Ramen Noodle car company.

:thumbsup: honda will always be cooler in my book than BIG OL AMERICAN V8 GM BIG CARS ESCLADE WOOHOHOOOO 9/11!!! lameness. Don't forget, honda and toyota forced the big 3 to make better sedans and better cars in general

You make it sound as if Honda is the only company with fuel cell research.
GM actually makes way cooler cars than Honda. Hell, even Hyundai has passed Honda on the coolness scale. Honda is killing S2000, while Hyundai is bringing out Genesis coupe. Koreans doing what they do best, eating Japanese's lunch. Did it with RAM, did it with consumer electronics, and now going to do it with cars.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: senseamp
You can get reliability and economy from a Honda Accord. What's the point of paying thousands more for an Acura if economy is the top concern?
If you want to command a higher profit margin, you have to be cool too. You have to have an aspirational product. I would WANT to have an RWD Acura sedan or coupe, and willing to spend ten thousand over an Accord EX. Not so with a FWD Acura TL.

And sometimes you want those bread and butter cars with a little more luxury, which is pretty much what acura stands for. Hence, they don't cost as big of a premium over Honda as a Lexus does over Toyota. Honda never liked big power, they've liked small and efficient. By killing these things, they're actually going back to what they focused on as a company.

That's the main problem. Honda is all about what they like or think you should be driving. How about they ask the consumer what they want in this segment.

Hmm, sounds like the customer has spoken, and they want bread-and-butter.

There is room for bread and butter. But Acura is trying to sell bread and butter in a luxury restaurant 🙂

Heh, good analogy, but I don't think Honda/Acura is all that interested in breaking into the luxury segment. Too much R&D + pricey inventory = unacceptable risk. If they can keep the TL as a competitive entry-lux, and keep their eye on the ball, they'll do just fine.

I myself prefer the G Sedan and BMW 3 to the TL, but all three are very fine cars.

 

[Deviant Grasshopper]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain

Originally posted by: Strk
So Honda is going to be what, a company with a half dozen or so vehicles, each with three or four trim levels and the only options will be color? This reminds me of that bit on Top Gear when they were making fun of the German companies. You can either have it in black, grey or black!

You mean, exactly what they were in the early 90's glory years?

Civic, Accord, Prelude, Legend. Three trim levels on most models.

No high performance cars. No trucks. No vans. No big luxury cars. No convertibles.

And yet, they were probably the best company on the planet for segments in which they competed.

And this sounds like a bad strategy why?

Their CEO was recently named the most important man in the automobile world by Motor Trend (not that I'm a huge fan of Motor Trend). The primary reason he got the award is that he had the foresight not to overextend the brand (and even that conservatism has proved to be too liberal for the current climate). They had two cars in Car and Driver's 10 Best this year (some years they do even better), and both models will continue to be built.

The S2000 was hand-built and likely had an extremely low profit margin. All the Germans are moving out of big engines as fast as they can. BMW is killing the V10 and the V12. Mercedes is killing the V12. For Honda to focus on their critically-acclaimed V6 range rather than their V10 or V8 is a similar decision. Many companies are dropping niche models such as coupes and convertible versions of cars. Efficiency is the name of the game, not only for cars, but for companies.

You guys need to realize that there is a difference between making money while positioning the brand for the future and making halo cars that most of us will never buy, even if we consider ourselves car lovers. One option isn't too sexy, but it means the company will survive to build that S3000 in ten years. The other option is sexy and results in bankruptcy.

Think of this as doing the exact opposite of what the Big Three did over the last 20 years. That sounds like a pretty damn good idea to me.

I wish I could +rep.


Keep in mind that for a long time the only honda you could buy was yellow. Period. That's what got them where they are today. The fact that they're consolidating while the american companies are continuing on the same stupid path says a lot imo.

 

[HannibalX]

Honda is being smart with their resources, something most other car companies can't seem to figure out. The first thing you cut out when times are tough is the fat. Honda makes it's money selling Civics and Accords - best they focus on those cars right now. You idiots are far to stupid to realise this apparently.

 

[StageLeft]

They are obviously trying to be as boring as Toyota.