Honda hybrid owner sues over fuel economy

[zoiks]

Text

WASHINGTON - Facing $3-a-gallon gasoline prices in California last year, John True decided to stop driving his Mercedes-Benz E320 and bought a Honda Civic Hybrid.

Impressed by the gas-electric hybrid's advertised mileage - 49 miles per gallon in the city, 51 mpg on the highway - True plunked down $28,470, at least $7,000 more than for a comparable non-hybrid Civic EX.

But after 6,000 miles of driving, True said he averaged just 32 mpg in mixed city/highway driving. So in March, True, a professional jazz piano player in Ontario in Southern California, filed a class-action lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Riverside, in what appears to be the first legal challenge of the mileage claims of hybrid vehicles.

True's frustration with the actual mileage of his hybrid vs. the advertised mileage echoes that of other owners, many of whom voice their complaints on online message boards, and reflects the findings of some independent tests, including one by Consumer Reports.

The lawsuit claims American Honda Motor has misled consumers in its advertisements and on its Web site. The suit notes that while the Environmental Protection Agency and automobile window stickers say "mileage will vary," some of Honda's advertisements read "mileage may vary." That implies that it's possible to get the mileage advertised, said William H. Anderson, a Washington, D.C., attorney for True.

One Honda magazine ad claimed owners could get up to 650 miles on a
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single tank of gas, while Honda's Web site features a fuel-savings calculator that assumes hybrid Civic drivers will average 51 mpg.

"This case does seek relief for tens of thousands of consumers like Mr. True, who purchased the HCH expecting to benefit from its `remarkable' fuel efficiency, and paid thousands of dollars extra for an HCH that looks identical and performs basically the same as the non-hybrid Honda Civic," said a June 4 court filing.

Honda and others note that EPA tests, which hadn't been revised in two decades, have overstated average fuel economy for all vehicles. Last year, the EPA announced it was revising its testing procedures to better reflect real-world driving conditions, beginning with the 2008 model year. Many models on sale now have the new EPA labels.

"I can tell you that the 49/51 figures are EPA numbers, not Honda numbers," Honda spokesman Sage Marie said Thursday. "Some customers achieve the EPA mpg figures and some don't, as fuel-economy performance is a function of conditions, traffic, driving style, load, etc."

He said the "vast majority of Civic Hybrid customers are satisfied with the performance since it delivers consistently and substantially higher numbers than comparable non-hybrid vehicles in the real world. It is possible to attain the EPA estimates, and customers do all the time."

Last month, Honda announced it would stop selling the hybrid version of the Honda Accord later this year, citing slow sales. Sales of the hybrid Civic have been much better. Through June, Honda has sold 17,141 Civic hybrids, up 7.4 percent over last year.

In an interview Thursday, Anderson said True's legal team will begin the process of discovery, in an effort to determine how many complaints Honda has received and what the automaker's internal mileage testing shows.

"It's just dishonest to twist the numbers that they know people can't get," Anderson said. Just because the EPA conducts tests, it doesn't give Honda license to advertise fuel-economy numbers that aren't achievable, he said.

Andrew Frank, a mechanical engineering professor at the University of California-Davis, and father of the plug-in hybrid, said drivers don't realize that aggressive driving dramatically reduces fuel economy, especially in hybrids.

"The hybrids are much more sensitive to the way you drive than a conventional car," Frank said.

Consumer Reports found in October 2005 that the Honda Civic Hybrid averaged just 26 mpg in city driving - 46 percent below the EPA estimate. Other hybrids also averaged below estimates.

 

[Zenmervolt]

This is not going to go anywhere. The guy's an idiot. Honda posted the EPA numbers, it's not fraud, there's no legal ground for the suit. He just found some ambulance chaser willing to work on contingency to file the suit. I hope this moron ends up having to pay Honda's legal fees and gets hit with a counter-suit for libel/slander.

ZV

 

[Riverhound777]

"Consumer Reports found in October 2005 that the Honda Civic Hybrid averaged just 26 mpg in city driving "

Wow, that is rediculous. I get that in my mazda 3. Don't regular civics get better mileage than that?

 

[theeedude]

Buahahaha. 28.5K for a Civic. He should sue his parents for raising him to be stupid. I get 30+mpg city and highway in my Mazda3 with light driving, around 28 with normal driving. And that's with a 2.3L engine. Oh yeah, I paid $12K less.

 

[DanTMWTMP]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Buahahaha. 28.5K for a Civic. He should sue his parents for raising him to be stupid. I get 30+mpg city and highway in my Mazda3 with light driving, around 28 with normal driving. And that's with a 2.3L engine. Oh yeah, I paid $12K less.

woa how!!! I barely get 29 driving light-footed on my 2.3 3

T.T

but ya, the guy spends more money for a new car just for gas? in the end, he loses more money...wtf logic...

and unless he drives a crapload everyday and drives lightfooted, what's the point? it seems he gets 32 and heavyfooted.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
This is not going to go anywhere. The guy's an idiot. Honda posted the EPA numbers, it's not fraud, there's no legal ground for the suit. He just found some ambulance chaser willing to work on contingency to file the suit. I hope this moron ends up having to pay Honda's legal fees and gets hit with a counter-suit for libel/slander.

ZV

court filings and communications associated with lawsuits to similarly situated parties are privileged from defamation charges. and truth is also a defense to defamation.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
This is not going to go anywhere. The guy's an idiot. Honda posted the EPA numbers, it's not fraud, there's no legal ground for the suit. He just found some ambulance chaser willing to work on contingency to file the suit. I hope this moron ends up having to pay Honda's legal fees and gets hit with a counter-suit for libel/slander.

ZV

court filings and communications associated with lawsuits to similarly situated parties are privileged from defamation charges. and truth is also a defense to defamation.

I'm reasonably sure that this nut job is saying things outside of court filings and communications associated with the lawsuit. Also, his claim is that Honda is intentionally misleading consumers, that doesn't fit the criterion for "truth".

If he's kept his mouth shut except for comments relating to the lawsuit, he's obviously not open to a slander/libel charge, but I don't think this guy's smart enough for that.

Honda followed established industry practice Claims of fraud are patently false.

ZV

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

If memory serves, carmakers are not allowed to advertise mileage figures other than the EPA's numbers, and in fact I believe Toyota and Honda have both asked to publish their real mileage figures for their hybrid cars out of fear that people may be disappointed when they don't reach the EPA numbers.

 

[BD2003]

So he's suing Honda for the numbers the EPA gave them? He'd have better luck suing the EPA.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

I'm reasonably sure that this nut job is saying things outside of court filings and communications associated with the lawsuit. Also, his claim is that Honda is intentionally misleading consumers, that doesn't fit the criterion for "truth".

If he's kept his mouth shut except for comments relating to the lawsuit, he's obviously not open to a slander/libel charge, but I don't think this guy's smart enough for that.

actually, i doubt True is doing much of anything. his lawyer is giving interviews, however.

any time you see class action, realize that the person actually pursuing the claim is the lawyer, and the plaintiff is usually associated with the lawyer. securities litigation is full of that stuff.

Honda followed established industry practice Claims of fraud are patently false.

ZV

honda did better than industry practice: they did as they are required to by law. that's a much better defense because industry practice could be shown to be fraudulent.

 

[Uhtrinity]

You can drive any car, including a hybrid, and get bad mileage. Quick launches and passes will kill your mileage. The first few weeks I had my Insight I drove it just like my old Saturn SC2 (quick launches, and stops), and my mileage averaged 50 mpg in town, and 60ish on the highway. Now that I know how to drive it my city average has gone up to 60 - 70 mpg, and highway has gone up to 70 - 90mpg, and that isn't even hypermiling.

My best 120 mile round trip was 92.5 mpg at 60 mph. The old epa spec was 61 city / 70 highway, and the new spec is 49 / 61, which I think is terribly low considering most hybrids have instantaneous and trip mpg gauges that show you what works and what doesn't.

 

[PowerEngineer]

That's really too bad.

I admit to changing my driving habits a bit, but my Camry hybrid averages right at the 40 mpg EPA estimate (during warm summer weather and no ethanol in gas).

 

[zoiks]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity
You can drive any car, including a hybrid, and get bad mileage. Quick launches and passes will kill your mileage. The first few weeks I had my Insight I drove it just like my old Saturn SC2 (quick launches, and stops), and my mileage averaged 50 mpg in town, and 60ish on the highway. Now that I know how to drive it my city average has gone up to 60 - 70 mpg, and highway has gone up to 70 - 90mpg, and that isn't even hypermiling.

My best 120 mile round trip was 92.5 mpg at 60 mph. The old epa spec was 61 city / 70 highway, and the new spec is 49 / 61, which I think is terribly low considering most hybrids have instantaneous and trip mpg gauges that show you what works and what doesn't.

Those instantaneous and trip mpg gauges are nothing but a snapshot of the mileage at that moment in time. I had a Nissan that showed the same thing and when going downhill or slowing down it would show 60-80mpg. That has absolutely nothing to do with the average mpg the car gets.
As mentioned in the article, Consumer Reports found the Civic hybrid to be averaging 26mpg. I'm sure they measured the mpg in normal conditions as they do with any car. 26mpg is disturbing for a Civic hybrid or any car for that category.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: zoiks


Those instantaneous and trip mpg gauges are nothing but a snapshot of the mileage at that moment in time. I had a Nissan that showed the same thing and when going downhill or slowing down it would show 60-80mpg. That has absolutely nothing to do with the average mpg the car gets.
As mentioned in the article, Consumer Reports found the Civic hybrid to be averaging 26mpg. I'm sure they measured the mpg in normal conditions as they do with any car. 26mpg is disturbing for a Civic hybrid or any car for that category.

I beg to differ, those instantaneous and trip gauges have been in within a few percent of my calculated (at fillup) mileage. I got 680 miles on my last tank, fillup was 9.6 gallons, for 70.8mpg, the trip mpg gauge was at 69 point something. When using that instantaneous gauge the goal is to keep it from bouncing much. For example I will try to keep it around 75mpg while on the interstate, a few spikes and drops average out. I believe if more drivers had those kind of tools (game gauges as the insiders call them) I think they would do better mileage wise.

Also going by posts on Insighcentral.net, the Insights gauges seem to be within a few percent +/- at most. As far as the Civic, I know it rates lower, but there was a Civic hybrid owner that reported mileage in the 50's and 60's per tank, guess it depends on the driver like I mentioned.

 

[zoiks]

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: zoiks


Those instantaneous and trip mpg gauges are nothing but a snapshot of the mileage at that moment in time. I had a Nissan that showed the same thing and when going downhill or slowing down it would show 60-80mpg. That has absolutely nothing to do with the average mpg the car gets.
As mentioned in the article, Consumer Reports found the Civic hybrid to be averaging 26mpg. I'm sure they measured the mpg in normal conditions as they do with any car. 26mpg is disturbing for a Civic hybrid or any car for that category.

I beg to differ, those instantaneous and trip gauges have been in within a few percent of my calculated (at fillup) mileage. I got 680 miles on my last tank, fillup was 9.6 gallons, for 70.8mpg, the trip mpg gauge was at 69 point something. When using that instantaneous gauge the goal is to keep it from bouncing much. For example I will try to keep it around 75mpg while on the interstate, a few spikes and drops average out. I believe if more drivers had those kind of tools (game gauges as the insiders call them) I think they would do better mileage wise.

Also going by posts on Insighcentral.net, the Insights gauges seem to be within a few percent +/- at most. As far as the Civic, I know it rates lower, but there was a Civic hybrid owner that reported mileage in the 50's and 60's per tank, guess it depends on the driver like I mentioned.

About the Civic. I think I'll take Consumer Report's findings into account and not just someone's who is biased since they own the car.
The insight is fairly fuel efficient. I was referring to the Civic. Normally a driver has the tendency to keep the fuel economy high by mimicking the behavior that causes the gauge to display good numbers. When I had the Nissan, I would slow down a lot, and I would show good numbers throughout and I would get good mileage. This only would be achieved by viewing the gauge constantly and then by reproducing the same behavior that would cause the gauge to display good mileage.
But when someone says that ooh my prius gets 90mpg since the gauge says so, thats bullshit.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: zoiks

Originally posted by: Uhtrinity

Originally posted by: zoiks


Those instantaneous and trip mpg gauges are nothing but a snapshot of the mileage at that moment in time. I had a Nissan that showed the same thing and when going downhill or slowing down it would show 60-80mpg. That has absolutely nothing to do with the average mpg the car gets.
As mentioned in the article, Consumer Reports found the Civic hybrid to be averaging 26mpg. I'm sure they measured the mpg in normal conditions as they do with any car. 26mpg is disturbing for a Civic hybrid or any car for that category.

I beg to differ, those instantaneous and trip gauges have been in within a few percent of my calculated (at fillup) mileage. I got 680 miles on my last tank, fillup was 9.6 gallons, for 70.8mpg, the trip mpg gauge was at 69 point something. When using that instantaneous gauge the goal is to keep it from bouncing much. For example I will try to keep it around 75mpg while on the interstate, a few spikes and drops average out. I believe if more drivers had those kind of tools (game gauges as the insiders call them) I think they would do better mileage wise.

Also going by posts on Insighcentral.net, the Insights gauges seem to be within a few percent +/- at most. As far as the Civic, I know it rates lower, but there was a Civic hybrid owner that reported mileage in the 50's and 60's per tank, guess it depends on the driver like I mentioned.

About the Civic. I think I'll take Consumer Report's findings into account and not just someone's who is biased since they own the car.
The insight is fairly fuel efficient. I was referring to the Civic. Normally a driver has the tendency to keep the fuel economy high by mimicking the behavior that causes the gauge to display good numbers. When I had the Nissan, I would slow down a lot, and I would show good numbers throughout and I would get good mileage. This only would be achieved by viewing the gauge constantly and then by reproducing the same behavior that would cause the gauge to display good mileage.
But when someone says that ooh my prius gets 90mpg since the gauge says so, thats bullshit.

A Prius shows your average gas mileage, instananeous, and a graph of the past 30 minutes of driving. My average gas mileage seems to be spot on so far. I Put 517 miles on a tank and filled up just a hair over 10 gallons. My computer said 51.4 average MPG.

The record for a Prius is just over 1400 miles on a tank of gas. btw.