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honda, gm, ford should work together

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Originally posted by: alpineranger
Actually, according to honda, they wanted BW to build them an automatic, but the request was turned down.
http://world.honda.com/history...ondamatic/text/02.html
Click to expand...

Not quite.

To develop an automatic transmission that could accommodate the characteristics of its models, Honda also needed to obtain data on actual vehicles. For these reasons the development team decided to start by building a prototype car. This, they believed, would help them discern the basic facts. As for the automatic transmission itself, they decided to ask BW to develop a prototype. This approach was a natural choice, since Honda possessed little of the technology. And in light of the aforementioned difficulties, the environment surrounding AT development did not promise a positive result.

Hattori quickly contacted BW with specifications he had drawn up based on the S500. Contrary to his expectations, however, BW replied that they would not be able to satisfy Honda?s requirements. Citing a displacement of only 500 cc, not to mention the required maximum engine speed of 8,000 rpm?twice that of a conventional engine?BW claimed they couldn?t find any AT specifications that accommodated those conditions.
Click to expand...

Honda asked BW to provide a prototype transmission for Honda to use as a test case for the feasibility of an automatic in their cars and for data gathering. The request to BW was not for them to produce the transmission that would be used in production models.

That is why BW turned Honda down; BW did not have any existing model that met Honda's requirements for Honda to use during its feasibility study. Honda was asking for something "off the shelf" and BW simply replied that they didn't have anything that met Honda's specs.

ZV
 
I wouldn't put co-op projects past anybody. For a reminder, Soichiro Honda's idol was Henry Ford. There is also a Soichiro Honda tribute in the Henry Ford Museum that has been on display for some time now.
Soichiro Honda didn't work people to death, neither did Henry Ford. Ford was strict, didn't allow drinking even during laborer's off hours, and detested idling even for a few moments (even execs). But he was fair with his rules, and he wanted every employee to be a customer.
There are some Japanese executives that don't look at American's are American companies as beneath them. Their core belief is just making a good product.
And yes, there are others that just see their jobs and their subordinates duties as the only thing that matters in their life. And some that are pretty close to being elitist in national and racial pride.
 
Originally posted by: redly1
Originally posted by: 1prophet
They already do, gm collaborated with bmw and chrysler in order to design the hybrid transmission for its full size suv's.
Click to expand...

To be 100% correct, GM already had the hybrid system in test mule Tahoes (with a LiIon battery pack, no less) back in late 02, way before Chrysler or BMW came in to the picture.
Click to expand...

Chrysler was testing hybrid technology in 1997 and 1998 on the Intrepid.
http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html

 
Originally posted by: radioouman
Originally posted by: redly1
Originally posted by: 1prophet
They already do, gm collaborated with bmw and chrysler in order to design the hybrid transmission for its full size suv's.
Click to expand...

To be 100% correct, GM already had the hybrid system in test mule Tahoes (with a LiIon battery pack, no less) back in late 02, way before Chrysler or BMW came in to the picture.
Click to expand...

Chrysler was testing hybrid technology in 1997 and 1998 on the Intrepid.
http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html
Click to expand...

and GM built a fuel cell powered van in 1968. whats your point? GM did already have hybrid SUV's on the road when bmw and crysler were interested.
 
Ford has not had a great history trying to sell european cars here (contour, anyone?) GM hasn't fared much better. Also, it would take some time for them to get a euro model ready to sell here (tweaks to satisfy marketing and govt regulation). On the other hand, the fit is ready to go in this market (and already successful), and while another company would probably want to tweak it a bit, the effort to get it out here would be less.
 
Originally posted by: alpineranger
Ford has not had a great history trying to sell european cars here (contour, anyone?) GM hasn't fared much better. Also, it would take some time for them to get a euro model ready to sell here (tweaks to satisfy marketing and govt regulation). On the other hand, the fit is ready to go in this market (and already successful), and while another company would probably want to tweak it a bit, the effort to get it out here would be less.
Click to expand...

Fit is ugly, and looks like a shoe or a miniature minivan. Plus they would still need to modify it to look like a Ford, so may as well just take a better looking and designed Fiesta that they alrady make and modify it instead, which is Ford is doing for 2010. Ford also has Mazda2, which is a better car than Fit also, IMHO. There is no shortage of good cars for Ford to pick from their own portfolio, they certainly have no need to sell Honda Fits, much less last generation ones. Maybe Chrysler needs Honda's help with small cars, since they don't seem to have a clue about car design, but GM and Ford do make good small cars overseas. They are just self sabotaging by not bringing them here, for whatever reason.
I am seriously considering a Ford Fiesta for my next car, and I make good money (well into 6 figures). For me it's all about design, and Ford Europe seems to have it nailed down. Also, they seem to do great suspension tuning work on their small cars to give them a premium feel. Fit just doesn't work for me on any level, it looks completely utilitarian and economy. If anything, Honda should get Ford to design a small car for them and just fit it with their engine and transmission.
 
I would be amazed if Honda accepted any of GM or Ford's manufacturing capacity.

There is a fundamental difference in the way the two operate. Honda designs their plants so any piece of equipment can be replaced as fast as possible. The will shut the lines down and fix problems immediatly. GM and Ford's first instinct is to bypass any faulty equipment and push inferior parts, and maybe fix whatever the issue is on the weeked, or at best on an off shift.

Couple that with the fact Honda is always pushing the edge of technology with the equipment they use, and the fact GM has to "validate" every minor change, results in GM using equipment that is 2 generations older that what Honda has.
 
Originally posted by: lurk3r
I would be amazed if Honda accepted any of GM or Ford's manufacturing capacity.

There is a fundamental difference in the way the two operate. Honda designs their plants so any piece of equipment can be replaced as fast as possible. The will shut the lines down and fix problems immediatly. GM and Ford's first instinct is to bypass any faulty equipment and push inferior parts, and maybe fix whatever the issue is on the weeked, or at best on an off shift.

Couple that with the fact Honda is always pushing the edge of technology with the equipment they use, and the fact GM has to "validate" every minor change, results in GM using equipment that is 2 generations older that what Honda has.
Click to expand...

Really? So what else did you learn about GM when you worked there? I'm curious.
 
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: alpineranger
Ford has not had a great history trying to sell european cars here (contour, anyone?) GM hasn't fared much better. Also, it would take some time for them to get a euro model ready to sell here (tweaks to satisfy marketing and govt regulation). On the other hand, the fit is ready to go in this market (and already successful), and while another company would probably want to tweak it a bit, the effort to get it out here would be less.
Click to expand...

Fit is ugly, and looks like a shoe or a miniature minivan. Plus they would still need to modify it to look like a Ford, so may as well just take a better looking and designed Fiesta that they alrady make and modify it instead, which is Ford is doing for 2010. Ford also has Mazda2, which is a better car than Fit also, IMHO. There is no shortage of good cars for Ford to pick from their own portfolio, they certainly have no need to sell Honda Fits, much less last generation ones. Maybe Chrysler needs Honda's help with small cars, since they don't seem to have a clue about car design, but GM and Ford do make good small cars overseas. They are just self sabotaging by not bringing them here, for whatever reason.
I am seriously considering a Ford Fiesta for my next car, and I make good money (well into 6 figures). For me it's all about design, and Ford Europe seems to have it nailed down. Also, they seem to do great suspension tuning work on their small cars to give them a premium feel. Fit just doesn't work for me on any level, it looks completely utilitarian and economy. If anything, Honda should get Ford to design a small car for them and just fit it with their engine and transmission.
Click to expand...

Have you drove the Mazda2 and Fiesta along with the Fit to make the claims of great cars?
 
Originally posted by: BassBomb
That would be the worst decision for Honda ever.
Click to expand...
Concur. When you're beating the snot of somebody at poker you don't start giving them your secrets. Honda is doing fantastically right now. Their sales are basically stagnant year over year I think and the big three and even toyota have lost heavily.

 
Originally posted by: BassBomb
Originally posted by: senseamp
Originally posted by: alpineranger
Ford has not had a great history trying to sell european cars here (contour, anyone?) GM hasn't fared much better. Also, it would take some time for them to get a euro model ready to sell here (tweaks to satisfy marketing and govt regulation). On the other hand, the fit is ready to go in this market (and already successful), and while another company would probably want to tweak it a bit, the effort to get it out here would be less.
Click to expand...

Fit is ugly, and looks like a shoe or a miniature minivan. Plus they would still need to modify it to look like a Ford, so may as well just take a better looking and designed Fiesta that they alrady make and modify it instead, which is Ford is doing for 2010. Ford also has Mazda2, which is a better car than Fit also, IMHO. There is no shortage of good cars for Ford to pick from their own portfolio, they certainly have no need to sell Honda Fits, much less last generation ones. Maybe Chrysler needs Honda's help with small cars, since they don't seem to have a clue about car design, but GM and Ford do make good small cars overseas. They are just self sabotaging by not bringing them here, for whatever reason.
I am seriously considering a Ford Fiesta for my next car, and I make good money (well into 6 figures). For me it's all about design, and Ford Europe seems to have it nailed down. Also, they seem to do great suspension tuning work on their small cars to give them a premium feel. Fit just doesn't work for me on any level, it looks completely utilitarian and economy. If anything, Honda should get Ford to design a small car for them and just fit it with their engine and transmission.
Click to expand...

Have you drove the Mazda2 and Fiesta along with the Fit to make the claims of great cars?
Click to expand...

No, but I've compared 3 to Civic, and Ford/Mazda just tune their handling/steering better. Plus I've seen pictures of all three, and the Fit just looks awkward, like a minivan for midgets, while Fiesta and Mazda2 actually look well designed.
 
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: lurk3r
I would be amazed if Honda accepted any of GM or Ford's manufacturing capacity.

There is a fundamental difference in the way the two operate. Honda designs their plants so any piece of equipment can be replaced as fast as possible. The will shut the lines down and fix problems immediatly. GM and Ford's first instinct is to bypass any faulty equipment and push inferior parts, and maybe fix whatever the issue is on the weeked, or at best on an off shift.

Couple that with the fact Honda is always pushing the edge of technology with the equipment they use, and the fact GM has to "validate" every minor change, results in GM using equipment that is 2 generations older that what Honda has.
Click to expand...

Really? So what else did you learn about GM when you worked there? I'm curious.
Click to expand...

One more golden bit, GM will not try to recover any scrap, minor defects in paint they have an entire section of the line dedicated to repairing, but they will scrap a whole vehicle if something major happens.


The shady bit comes in their accounting practices. If a tire gets a nick on it they will drill a hole making it useless and write off the full $250 retail, when they actually only pay $8 for the tire. There are 'good' reasons they have policies like this, but all this money they created is now starting to catch up to them.

A vehicle that could be recovered and have the perfectly good engine, trans, interior etc sold as spare parts will be crushed because its more profitable to scrap it at the full retail value than to actually have the bean counters figure out what % needed to be scrapped.

Anyone that thinks this is negligible is deceiving themselves, it was millions of dollars a day.

By far the most despicable thing I saw though was someone actually cut in half on the production line, for insurance reasons was not actually pronounced dead in the plant, apparently they claimed he was alive until he reached the hospital.
 
Originally posted by: lurk3r
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: lurk3r
I would be amazed if Honda accepted any of GM or Ford's manufacturing capacity.

There is a fundamental difference in the way the two operate. Honda designs their plants so any piece of equipment can be replaced as fast as possible. The will shut the lines down and fix problems immediatly. GM and Ford's first instinct is to bypass any faulty equipment and push inferior parts, and maybe fix whatever the issue is on the weeked, or at best on an off shift.

Couple that with the fact Honda is always pushing the edge of technology with the equipment they use, and the fact GM has to "validate" every minor change, results in GM using equipment that is 2 generations older that what Honda has.
Click to expand...

Really? So what else did you learn about GM when you worked there? I'm curious.
Click to expand...

One more golden bit, GM will not try to recover any scrap, minor defects in paint they have an entire section of the line dedicated to repairing, but they will scrap a whole vehicle if something major happens.


The shady bit comes in their accounting practices. If a tire gets a nick on it they will drill a hole making it useless and write off the full $250 retail, when they actually only pay $8 for the tire. There are 'good' reasons they have policies like this, but all this money they created is now starting to catch up to them.

A vehicle that could be recovered and have the perfectly good engine, trans, interior etc sold as spare parts will be crushed because its more profitable to scrap it at the full retail value than to actually have the bean counters figure out what % needed to be scrapped.

Anyone that thinks this is negligible is deceiving themselves, it was millions of dollars a day.

By far the most despicable thing I saw though was someone actually cut in half on the production line, for insurance reasons was not actually pronounced dead in the plant, apparently they claimed he was alive until he reached the hospital.
Click to expand...

:shocked:.................

 
Originally posted by: radioouman
Originally posted by: redly1
Originally posted by: 1prophet
They already do, gm collaborated with bmw and chrysler in order to design the hybrid transmission for its full size suv's.
Click to expand...

To be 100% correct, GM already had the hybrid system in test mule Tahoes (with a LiIon battery pack, no less) back in late 02, way before Chrysler or BMW came in to the picture.
Click to expand...

Chrysler was testing hybrid technology in 1997 and 1998 on the Intrepid.
http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html
Click to expand...

Not the technology that is currently in production, though
 
Originally posted by: lurk3r
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: lurk3r
I would be amazed if Honda accepted any of GM or Ford's manufacturing capacity.

There is a fundamental difference in the way the two operate. Honda designs their plants so any piece of equipment can be replaced as fast as possible. The will shut the lines down and fix problems immediatly. GM and Ford's first instinct is to bypass any faulty equipment and push inferior parts, and maybe fix whatever the issue is on the weeked, or at best on an off shift.

Couple that with the fact Honda is always pushing the edge of technology with the equipment they use, and the fact GM has to "validate" every minor change, results in GM using equipment that is 2 generations older that what Honda has.
Click to expand...

Really? So what else did you learn about GM when you worked there? I'm curious.
Click to expand...

One more golden bit, GM will not try to recover any scrap, minor defects in paint they have an entire section of the line dedicated to repairing, but they will scrap a whole vehicle if something major happens.


The shady bit comes in their accounting practices. If a tire gets a nick on it they will drill a hole making it useless and write off the full $250 retail, when they actually only pay $8 for the tire. There are 'good' reasons they have policies like this, but all this money they created is now starting to catch up to them.

A vehicle that could be recovered and have the perfectly good engine, trans, interior etc sold as spare parts will be crushed because its more profitable to scrap it at the full retail value than to actually have the bean counters figure out what % needed to be scrapped.

Anyone that thinks this is negligible is deceiving themselves, it was millions of dollars a day.

By far the most despicable thing I saw though was someone actually cut in half on the production line, for insurance reasons was not actually pronounced dead in the plant, apparently they claimed he was alive until he reached the hospital.
Click to expand...

Not just GM either...FoMoCo it's the same way
 
Yes, Ford, American Axle are other plants I've heard of fatatilities (usually forklifts). Honda actually has a pool and workout facility and encourages employees to get their cars serviced on site, and bring their families to work out.

--edit-- I would not be surprised at all if people had been killed at Honda either, I just have not personally heard or seen of any major injuries
 
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: lurk3r
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: lurk3r
I would be amazed if Honda accepted any of GM or Ford's manufacturing capacity.

There is a fundamental difference in the way the two operate. Honda designs their plants so any piece of equipment can be replaced as fast as possible. The will shut the lines down and fix problems immediatly. GM and Ford's first instinct is to bypass any faulty equipment and push inferior parts, and maybe fix whatever the issue is on the weeked, or at best on an off shift.

Couple that with the fact Honda is always pushing the edge of technology with the equipment they use, and the fact GM has to "validate" every minor change, results in GM using equipment that is 2 generations older that what Honda has.
Click to expand...

Really? So what else did you learn about GM when you worked there? I'm curious.
Click to expand...

One more golden bit, GM will not try to recover any scrap, minor defects in paint they have an entire section of the line dedicated to repairing, but they will scrap a whole vehicle if something major happens.


The shady bit comes in their accounting practices. If a tire gets a nick on it they will drill a hole making it useless and write off the full $250 retail, when they actually only pay $8 for the tire. There are 'good' reasons they have policies like this, but all this money they created is now starting to catch up to them.

A vehicle that could be recovered and have the perfectly good engine, trans, interior etc sold as spare parts will be crushed because its more profitable to scrap it at the full retail value than to actually have the bean counters figure out what % needed to be scrapped.

Anyone that thinks this is negligible is deceiving themselves, it was millions of dollars a day.

By far the most despicable thing I saw though was someone actually cut in half on the production line, for insurance reasons was not actually pronounced dead in the plant, apparently they claimed he was alive until he reached the hospital.
Click to expand...

Not just GM either...FoMoCo it's the same way
Click to expand...

Toyota isn't exempt from these practices either, remember the worker that died from overwork?
 
The Japanese plants do expect you to stay on as long as necessary to fix a down situation, never been in a Toyota plant (just about the only car plant I have not had first hand installation knowledge of)
 
Very interesting. I had heard that the americans had been trying to adopt Japanese production methods, but I guess they haven't done that good a job at emulating them.
 
Originally posted by: alpineranger
Very interesting. I had heard that the americans had been trying to adopt Japanese production methods, but I guess they haven't done that good a job at emulating them.
Click to expand...

15.5 billion loss for gm :S
 
Originally posted by: alpineranger
Very interesting. I had heard that the americans had been trying to adopt Japanese production methods, but I guess they haven't done that good a job at emulating them.
Click to expand...

Impossible with the current unions in place.
 
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