Homosexual marriage is not a civil rights issue

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bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Damn, Planinum, you and Snowman are brutal.

if that is your definition of brutal then wow...

pretty tame if you ask me...

not my fault the two of them have problems with basic comprehension... ok, now I know..next time just for snow I will write it out in crayon and post a link to the picture.

You posted that drivel and you talk about comprehension. Please.

Maybe not so much brutal as funny. They both made me laugh. of course I got the joke. You may have missed it. :D

no moonbeam, I got it...not very funny though, but I guess one has to be loonie to find the humor.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: MartyTheManiak

Same wedding, at the same venue at the same price. The same rights in the same country with the same responsbilities and benefits.

I hope you see the point.

"like the thousands of others who would emulate them at lunch counters across the South, weren't demanding that Woolworth's prepare or serve their food in ways it had never been prepared or served before"

no Marty, I hope YOU see the point and realize that we are talking about two very different issues, the comparison the media is making between the two is downright laughable...
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam


Sorry, bozak, but the author has a bad case of bigotry.

never said he wasn't biased, heck everyone is....even you Moonie..or I should say especially you!...

Funny how your "bias" though here and elsewhere on the net is seen as semi progressive whereas the bias exhibited in that feature and by pro-conservative marriage supporters is seen as "bigotry" to use your terminology..IMHO truly unfair, there are always two sides to a coin, story or what have you...fact is people will always have to agree to disagree...

everyone here knows my stance, take the marriage game out of government...make everyone equal under the law as a union and these silly debates will be reduced to nothing more than the religious duking it out....

but I must say I agree with the author on the point that comparing this plight to that of the civil rights movement is absurd...the former was and is far more significant than this infinitesimal action will ever be, the effects and the message of the civil rights movement carry on unto this day and have great significance in our nations history, this if passed and accepted will be forgotten in no time as it has been in other nations...oh well, just my 2
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
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0
Originally posted by: bozack
3/7/2004

"HOMOSEXUAL marriage is not a civil rights issue. But that hasn't stopped the advocates of same-sex marriage from draping themselves in the glory of the civil rights movement -- and smearing the defenders of traditional marriage as the moral equal of segregationists.

In The New York Times last Sunday, cultural critic Frank Rich, quoting a "civil rights lawyer," beatified the gay and lesbian couples lining up to receive illegal marriage licenses from San Francisco's new mayor, Gavin Newsom:

"An act as unremarkable as getting a wedding license has been transformed by the people embracing it, much as the unremarkable act of sitting at a Formica lunch counter was transformed by an act of civil disobedience at a Woolworth's in North Carolina 44 years ago this month." Nearby, the Times ran a photograph of a smiling lesbian couple in matching wedding veils -- and an even larger photograph of a 1960 lunch counter sit-in.

Rich's essay -- "The Joy of Gay Marriage" -- went on to cast the supporters of traditional marriage as hateful zealots. They are "eager to foment the bloodiest culture war possible," he charged. "They are gladly donning the roles played by Lester Maddox and George Wallace in the civil rights era."

But it is the marriage radicals like Rich and Newsom who are doing their best to inflame a culture war. And as is so often the case in wartime, truth -- in this case, historical truth -- has been an early casualty.

For contrary to what Rich seems to believe, when Ezell Blair Jr., David Richmond, Joseph McNeil, and Franklin McCain approached the lunch counter of the Elm Street Woolworth's in Greensboro, N.C., on Feb. 1, 1960, all they asked for was a bite to eat. The four North Carolina Agricultural & Technical College students only wanted what any white customer might want, and on precisely the same terms -- the same food at the same counter at the same price.

Those first four sit-in strikers, like the thousands of others who would emulate them at lunch counters across the South, weren't demanding that Woolworth's prepare or serve their food in ways it had never been prepared or served before. They weren't trying to do something that had never been lawful in any state of the union. They weren't bent on forcing a revolutionary change upon a timeless social institution.

All they were seeking was what should already have been theirs under the law of the land. The 14th Amendment had declared that blacks no less than whites were entitled to equal protection of the law. The Civil Rights Act of 1875 had barred discrimination in public accommodations.

But the Supreme Court had gutted those protections with shameful decisions in 1883 and 1896. The court's betrayal of black Americans was the reason why, more than six decades later, segregation still polluted so much of the nation. To restore the 14th Amendment to its original purpose, to re-create the Civil Rights Act, to return to black citizens the equality that had been stolen from them -- that was the great cause of civil rights.

The marriage radicals, on the other hand, seek to restore nothing. They have not been deprived of the right to marry -- only of the right to insist that a single-sex union is a "marriage." They cloak their demands in the language of civil rights because it sounds so much better than the truth: They don't want to accept or reject marriage on the same terms that it is available to everyone else. They want it on entirely new terms. They want it to be given a meaning it has never before had, and they prefer that it be done undemocratically -- by judicial fiat, for example, or by mayors flouting the law. Whatever else that may be, it isn't civil rights. But dare to speak against it, and you are no better than Bull Connor.

Last month, as Massachusetts lawmakers prepared to debate a constitutional amendment on the meaning of marriage, the state's leading black clergy came out strongly in support of the age-old definition: the union of a man and a woman. They were promptly tarred as enemies of civil rights. "Martin Luther King," one left-wing legislator barked, "is rolling over in his grave at a statement like this."

But if anything has King spinning in his grave, it is the indecency of exploiting his name for a cause he never supported. The civil rights movement for which he lived and died was grounded in a fundamental truth: All God's children are created equal. The same-sex marriage movement, by contrast, is grounded in the denial of a fundamental truth: The Creator who made us equal made us male and female. That duality has always and everywhere been the starting point for marriage. To claim that marriage can ignore that duality is akin to the claim, back when lunch counters were segregated, that America was a land of liberty and justice for all."

- Jeff Jacoby - Boston Globe 03-07-04

Its not a civil rights issue. Its a constitutional issue. And under our constitution, banning of gay marriage is unconstitutional. Why do you think Bush is trying to gain the favor of the religious right, by offering up a constitutional amendment. Its the only thing that can prevent gays from eventually being able to legally marry. Ultimately, it will be decided by the US Supreme Court, and gays will be able to legally get married.

This isnt a states rights issue. Valid marriage licenses in one state, have to be valid in the many states. Then you have the whole broad specturm(thanks to past Supreme Court rulings) of interstate commerce.

There really is no paralell to the 50/60's Civil Rights movement. Gays and Lesbians are in no way persecuted, discriminated against, etc as blacks were. Id still say, gays and lesbians face less discrimination that most blacks to this day. To say they equate, is not right. This issue is trivial compared to what blacks faced, and equating the two movements, demeans the civil rights movement.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
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Originally posted by: digitalsm
Its not a civil rights issue. Its a constitutional issue. And under our constitution, banning of gay marriage is unconstitutional. Why do you think Bush is trying to gain the favor of the religious right, by offering up a constitutional amendment. Its the only thing that can prevent gays from eventually being able to legally marry. Ultimately, it will be decided by the US Supreme Court, and gays will be able to legally get married.

This isnt a states rights issue. Valid marriage licenses in one state, have to be valid in the many states. Then you have the whole broad specturm(thanks to past Supreme Court rulings) of interstate commerce.

I agree, eventually they will get their way, but again re read the article, it isn't so much talking of that but rather the common comparison to the black civil rights movement....

with re. to states issue, again I think the terminology is wrong in the govt, everyone should be union and then this wouldn't be an issue, or not as much as it is now....however all I can say is be ready for a serious jump in your health insurance costs as those guys will use anything as an excuse to jack prices and this IMHO is one of the better ones...oh well the good news is that if they do get to marry then we won't have to hear about it as people will forget soon enough as really the issue isn't that important.
 

Oneness

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2004
20
0
0
wow, i'm amazed at your copying and pasting skills. why don't you try a link to the article instead and give us your own take on the issue?
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: bozack
3/7/2004

"HOMOSEXUAL marriage is not a civil rights issue. But that hasn't stopped the advocates of same-sex marriage from draping themselves in the glory of the civil rights movement -- and smearing the defenders of traditional marriage as the moral equal of segregationists.

In The New York Times last Sunday, cultural critic Frank Rich, quoting a "civil rights lawyer," beatified the gay and lesbian couples lining up to receive illegal marriage licenses from San Francisco's new mayor, Gavin Newsom:

"An act as unremarkable as getting a wedding license has been transformed by the people embracing it, much as the unremarkable act of sitting at a Formica lunch counter was transformed by an act of civil disobedience at a Woolworth's in North Carolina 44 years ago this month." Nearby, the Times ran a photograph of a smiling lesbian couple in matching wedding veils -- and an even larger photograph of a 1960 lunch counter sit-in.

Rich's essay -- "The Joy of Gay Marriage" -- went on to cast the supporters of traditional marriage as hateful zealots. They are "eager to foment the bloodiest culture war possible," he charged. "They are gladly donning the roles played by Lester Maddox and George Wallace in the civil rights era."

But it is the marriage radicals like Rich and Newsom who are doing their best to inflame a culture war. And as is so often the case in wartime, truth -- in this case, historical truth -- has been an early casualty.

For contrary to what Rich seems to believe, when Ezell Blair Jr., David Richmond, Joseph McNeil, and Franklin McCain approached the lunch counter of the Elm Street Woolworth's in Greensboro, N.C., on Feb. 1, 1960, all they asked for was a bite to eat. The four North Carolina Agricultural & Technical College students only wanted what any white customer might want, and on precisely the same terms -- the same food at the same counter at the same price.

Those first four sit-in strikers, like the thousands of others who would emulate them at lunch counters across the South, weren't demanding that Woolworth's prepare or serve their food in ways it had never been prepared or served before. They weren't trying to do something that had never been lawful in any state of the union. They weren't bent on forcing a revolutionary change upon a timeless social institution.

All they were seeking was what should already have been theirs under the law of the land. The 14th Amendment had declared that blacks no less than whites were entitled to equal protection of the law. The Civil Rights Act of 1875 had barred discrimination in public accommodations.

But the Supreme Court had gutted those protections with shameful decisions in 1883 and 1896. The court's betrayal of black Americans was the reason why, more than six decades later, segregation still polluted so much of the nation. To restore the 14th Amendment to its original purpose, to re-create the Civil Rights Act, to return to black citizens the equality that had been stolen from them -- that was the great cause of civil rights.

The marriage radicals, on the other hand, seek to restore nothing. They have not been deprived of the right to marry -- only of the right to insist that a single-sex union is a "marriage." They cloak their demands in the language of civil rights because it sounds so much better than the truth: They don't want to accept or reject marriage on the same terms that it is available to everyone else. They want it on entirely new terms. They want it to be given a meaning it has never before had, and they prefer that it be done undemocratically -- by judicial fiat, for example, or by mayors flouting the law. Whatever else that may be, it isn't civil rights. But dare to speak against it, and you are no better than Bull Connor.

Last month, as Massachusetts lawmakers prepared to debate a constitutional amendment on the meaning of marriage, the state's leading black clergy came out strongly in support of the age-old definition: the union of a man and a woman. They were promptly tarred as enemies of civil rights. "Martin Luther King," one left-wing legislator barked, "is rolling over in his grave at a statement like this."

But if anything has King spinning in his grave, it is the indecency of exploiting his name for a cause he never supported. The civil rights movement for which he lived and died was grounded in a fundamental truth: All God's children are created equal. The same-sex marriage movement, by contrast, is grounded in the denial of a fundamental truth: The Creator who made us equal made us male and female. That duality has always and everywhere been the starting point for marriage. To claim that marriage can ignore that duality is akin to the claim, back when lunch counters were segregated, that America was a land of liberty and justice for all."

- Jeff Jacoby - Boston Globe 03-07-04

Its not a civil rights issue. Its a constitutional issue. And under our constitution, banning of gay marriage is unconstitutional. Why do you think Bush is trying to gain the favor of the religious right, by offering up a constitutional amendment. Its the only thing that can prevent gays from eventually being able to legally marry. Ultimately, it will be decided by the US Supreme Court, and gays will be able to legally get married.

This isnt a states rights issue. Valid marriage licenses in one state, have to be valid in the many states. Then you have the whole broad specturm(thanks to past Supreme Court rulings) of interstate commerce.

There really is no paralell to the 50/60's Civil Rights movement. Gays and Lesbians are in no way persecuted, discriminated against, etc as blacks were. Id still say, gays and lesbians face less discrimination that most blacks to this day. To say they equate, is not right. This issue is trivial compared to what blacks faced, and equating the two movements, demeans the civil rights movement.

it IS a constitutional issue and thinking that OUR President would have the GALL to support an UNCONSTITUTIONAL amendment JUST to get votes is frightening. it really says something about who and what bush represents.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
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Originally posted by: digitalsm

There really is no paralell to the 50/60's Civil Rights movement. Gays and Lesbians are in no way persecuted, discriminated against, etc as blacks were. Id still say, gays and lesbians face less discrimination that most blacks to this day. To say they equate, is not right. This issue is trivial compared to what blacks faced, and equating the two movements, demeans the civil rights movement.

So all gay people are white and gay people aren't beat up or made fun of in America because of their sexual orentation by ignorant punks and religous freaks ?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,561
6,153
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Originally posted by: Drift3r
Originally posted by: digitalsm

There really is no paralell to the 50/60's Civil Rights movement. Gays and Lesbians are in no way persecuted, discriminated against, etc as blacks were. Id still say, gays and lesbians face less discrimination that most blacks to this day. To say they equate, is not right. This issue is trivial compared to what blacks faced, and equating the two movements, demeans the civil rights movement.

So all gay people are white and gay people aren't beat up or made fun of in America because of their sexual orentation by ignorant punks and religous freaks ?

People live in the comfort of their own delusions and minimizes the suffering of others to avoid having to feel guilt over their bigotry and the harm that it causes.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,561
6,153
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M: Sorry, bozak, but the author has a bad case of bigotry.

b: never said he wasn't biased, heck everyone is....even you Moonie..or I should say especially you!...

M: No you shouldn't say, you should point out where. Anybody can say anything. Make a case as I have please. You seem to labor under the delusion that one opinion is as good as another. I don't agree. A prejudicial, unsupported opinion is bigotry pure and simple. As long as I argue and make a case that's rational and you appeal to some undefined negative feeling about gays, my opinion is rational and your's is a joke. We have the faculty of discrimination precisely so we can shift the wheat from the chaff. So far I been wheat and you been chaff. :D

b: Funny how your "bias" though here and elsewhere on the net is seen as semi progressive whereas the bias exhibited in that feature and by pro-conservative marriage supporters is seen as "bigotry" to use your terminology..

M: My dear Sir, my bias, if any, is seen by those with less and invisible to those with more. I would suggest that if you are the one with greater bigotry, you will have not even the most remote idea how progressive I am. You can see as far as you are tall, and bigots have very short legs. By the way, if the shoe fits wear it. Corn is a conservative and he doesn't posses this bigotry at all. He's too honest. Don't add a persecution complex to this mix. We got enough on the table as is.

b: IMHO truly unfair, there are always two sides to a coin, story or what have you...fact is people will always have to agree to disagree...

M: People often differ in opinion. That's fine as long as their opinion is based on an interpretation of objective data and the product of rational thought. Some people are of the opinion that the world is flat. They can think it, but it's not the other side of any real coin.

B: everyone here knows my stance, take the marriage game out of government...make everyone equal under the law as a union and these silly debates will be reduced to nothing more than the religious duking it out....

M: If you want to pass a law that makes marriage illegal of all, fine. :D

b: but I must say I agree with the author on the point that comparing this plight to that of the civil rights movement is absurd...the former was and is far more significant than this infinitesimal action will ever be, the effects and the message of the civil rights movement carry on unto this day and have great significance in our nations history, this if passed and accepted will be forgotten in no time as it has been in other nations...oh well, just my 2

M: History will come to it's own judgment on this but what you are saying is that the author made no sense at all but did manage to spell a word right. How analogous gay marriage and civil rights are is a debatable issue but one having nothing to do with the one at hand, whether gay marriage should be legal. If you wish a Pyrrhic victory, fine, but I suspect your need to minimize the gay issue is from your pique that you can't prevail in a logical debate and are generally ticked off at gays. :D

 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
If you wish a Pyrrhic victory, fine, but I suspect your need to minimize the gay issue is from your pique that you can't prevail in a logical debate and are generally ticked off at gays. :D

IMHO this is really the only point worth noting, and I would respond that I was only pointing out a rather interesting article featured in a very liberal newspaper...nothing more, nothing less....personally I am not "ticked off" at homosexuals but rather society as a whole, the media and certain aspects of government for making such a big deal out of such a minor issue that affects so few...

However I will take my victory :)
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Oneness
wow, i'm amazed at your copying and pasting skills. why don't you try a link to the article instead and give us your own take on the issue?

why cant the article be posted and left up for discussion by the group? does the poster of said article have to respond with something meaningful?...I see plenty of posts by Dave and co that only highlight a body of someone else's work which echos the liberal mantra yet not a word is said about his originality....
 

YellowRose

Senior member
Apr 22, 2003
247
0
0
Look folks if Bush is successful on this Gay issue, can seperate but equal be far behind. Will we return to the era of seperate water fountains and back of the bus ridership.
 

Gravity

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2003
5,685
0
0
Originally posted by: YellowRose
Now lets look at this. Two couples A and B. Both couples live in the same town. Both couples are American citizens.

Couple A goes to the local city/county clerk to secure a marriage lic. They then decide if they want a Church wedding or a Civil wedding. Say they choose a Civil wedding. They then get married and have a child or two. One member then decides after 5 years of marriage and 2 kids that He (purpose of argument) wants a divorce. They file their paperwork in the local civil court and then they are eventually divorced.

Key points: Marriage obtained by the States agent which is a local gov entity.
********: Couple A is married.
********: Couple A decides to get a Divorce and to obtain that divorce they must go thru the local courts as prescribed by the State.
Couple A is a Hetro couple.

Couple B who are gay decide that they wish to get married. They go to same local officals that Couple A went to. They are denied a marriage lic. by the local gov officals who issued one to Couple A.

Both couples are American Citizens so why is Couple B denied the same rights as Couple A.
What makes Couple A special that they receive the full rights of an American Citizen and Couple B are denied those same rights.


Why would you limit gay marriage to couples? Why not three or four? Why not 3 men and a woman? Why not 3 woman? Isn't limiting the number also bigotry?

Also, I wonder what the gay divorce rate will be since the average gay male has over 100 different partners per year? Will marriage mean monogamy for gays? Will the marriages be more open? The divorces any more civil?

I also wonder, if all the gay couples that wanted to got married, what would be the tax benefit to the nation?

Just a thought.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Gravity


Why would you limit gay marriage to couples? Why not three or four? Why not 3 men and a woman? Why not 3 woman? Isn't limiting the number also bigotry?
Sure...why not allow polygamy?


Also, I wonder what the gay divorce rate will be since the average gay male has over 100 different partners per year? Will marriage mean monogamy for gays? Will the marriages be more open? The divorces any more civil?
The gays I've known are monogamous. Where'd you pull that 100 different partners from? There are plenty of heterosexual males who do the same thing with women.


I also wonder, if all the gay couples that wanted to got married, what would be the tax benefit to the nation?
Who cares? Should fiscal concerns outweigh the basic civil rights of a group of people?

 

BeefJurky

Senior member
Sep 5, 2001
367
0
0
Also, I wonder what the gay divorce rate will be since the average gay male has over 100 different partners per year?

just wondering where you got this statistic... and why does it smell like.... ooooohhhhhh.

:D

edit: Smiley
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,561
6,153
126
Originally posted by: YellowRose
Look folks if Bush is successful on this Gay issue, can seperate but equal be far behind. Will we return to the era of seperate water fountains and back of the bus ridership.

And in no time at all we will be under the King of England again. I just hope the conservatives appreciate what a slippery slope we are on. :D
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
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Originally posted by: conjur
The gays I've known are monogamous. Where'd you pull that 100 different partners from? There are plenty of heterosexual males who do the same thing with women.

Known more than a few homosexuals and the only ones who were monogomous were the lesbians....I don't know if I buy the 100 partners, and YMMV in terms of the personality...but why bother being monogomous..or at least that is the first question I would ask.
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
7,366
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I love how the final passage illustrates his point: he claims marriage is a divinely endowed institution. So in other words, this article is "cloaked" with a religious ulterior motive. Time to move on and deal with someone who's not going to bring religion into the picture, because religion shouldn't have any place in formulating our laws. Not a single place.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,561
6,153
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Promiscuous gays that think straights are backward and quaint also are opposed to gay marriage with their new age bigotry. It isn't only straights that bring irrational bias to the table. There are large numbers of gays who also object. It's a slippery slope for them. If some gays want to be married that threatens my promiscuous style. Can't have that; please legislate.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Stonewall
Sure...why not allow polygamy?

For the same reason that we should not legalize homosexual marriage (see my previous post).

Pretty darn weak reasoning.


You realize polygamy (polygyny) was practiced all the way back, too? It's all over the Bible.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
if marraige were sacred u'd think we'd ban murderers and rapists from such an institution:p