Homelessness - An aspect I struggle with

RearAdmiral

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Jun 24, 2004
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Greetings all,

This is inspired by the "What if Jesus were alive today" thread. Abraxas brings up a verse from Matthew:

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

I greatly believe in this verse and it is widely known to be what Christianity should be all about. There is something I struggle with routinely though.

I will encounter homeless folks when I visit cities and sometimes I do help. When I was in San Francisco for a conference I saw a homeless woman and let her buy whatever she liked from Starbucks, that same night I bought a homeless man a bunch of Burger King stuff. This of course makes me feel good and I know I am helping these folks, if only temporarily.

Occasionally though I get worried about or scared of some homeless folks, not necessarily obviously mentally ill or dangerous ones. When this happens I will actively avoid and/or shun them as I am in "flight" mode. This causes me to be pretty conflicted as to whether or not I should have avoided them. I know my lizard brain is trying to protect me but later on my heart feels regret. Is the avoidance of possible physical harm an excuse? At least in the words of Christ? If I were to be at the pearly gates would my actions be questioned?

Basically any experience I have had with homeless has been relatively positive. I have had three interactions beyond simply giving a few dollars and they have all been nice. Another when I was in the D.C. area for a work week with a co-worker and his wife. I was lagging behind them as I was a third wheel this night and watched them walk by a homeless guy. I stopped as they went ahead and talked to him for a few minutes. He asked for money and I said all I had was my "lucky" 2 dollar bill. This was frequently the only bill in my wallet for a couple of years. So I gave it to him and he was genuinely moved enough to get up and give me a big hug.

When you experience things like this you really see that some of these people are good folks with no support, and small gestures make a huge difference in their life. Personally I can understand why Jesus said those words then. Our actions can make a huge impact on the down trodden. So much more than affluent folks.

Back to my previous questions then. Is the interest of self-preservation worth the active avoidance of the homeless in some situations? Especially when you see, first hand, the emotional benefits that can come to both parties? Am I causing myself spiritual harm in the name of "balancing" keeping myself safe and helping those in need? Is that WWJD??

Thanks anyone for your thoughts, stories and prayers(if you swing that way).
 

Mursilis

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Mar 11, 2001
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Back to my previous questions then. Is the interest of self-preservation worth the active avoidance of the homeless in some situations? Especially when you see, first hand, the emotional benefits that can come to both parties? Am I causing myself spiritual harm in the name of "balancing" keeping myself safe and helping those in need? Is that WWJD??

Thanks anyone for your thoughts, stories and prayers(if you swing that way).

Of course it is. Think of it this way - if your stories are true (and I have no reason to doubt them), then you're nicer to the homeless than most people, who just walk on by them. You're an asset to the homeless, or at least those you meet and help. Shouldn't that asset be protected, for their sake? If you just ignore the ones you think could reasonably harm you (and yes, some mentally-ill homeless people have randomly attacked perfect strangers), then I see nothing wrong with that.
 

RearAdmiral

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Jun 24, 2004
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Of course it is. Think of it this way - if your stories are true (and I have no reason to doubt them), then you're nicer to the homeless than most people, who just walk on by them. You're an asset to the homeless, or at least those you meet and help. Shouldn't that asset be protected, for their sake? If you just ignore the ones you think could reasonably harm you (and yes, some mentally-ill homeless people have randomly attacked perfect strangers), then I see nothing wrong with that.

I do understand the asset comment, though it feels odd to think of myself as that. Is it more important to try to extend the length of that asset, with possibly less immediate benefits, or do as much as possible, with greater risk?

This becomes more complicated for me when I am in the city with my girlfriend, as I have a responsibility to keep her safe as well. I very rarely interact with the homeless then as protecting her is my priority. I have only given once to the homeless with her with me.

I have great empathy for these people, but a lot of the time my own interests get in the way. Which hurts since I try to live by the above posted verse.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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I generally don't support giving direct handouts to homeless/panhandlers but that's a personal call for each individual to make. I'd rather pay a little more in taxes and give these people access to social services that we have eliminated (mental health facilities stands out here) or cut back.

Were I religious I'd probably prefer to donate further to my church in support of such charitable programs. If my church drifted too far away from that I'd fall back to private charities.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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I generally don't support giving direct handouts to homeless/panhandlers but that's a personal call for each individual to make. I'd rather pay a little more in taxes and give these people access to social services that we have eliminated (mental health facilities stands out here) or cut back.

Well said, that's my position as well - increase social services and government assistance.

Ideally, much more than short-term assistance, to help them get employable.
 

Murloc

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Jun 24, 2008
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Many homeless don't want/can't get a job or are mentally ill or illegals so there's only so much you can do.
There are hundreds of fake gypsy beggars so when you give them money, you're giving money to the rom mafia.
If I had money to donate to the poor I'd donate it to shelters who give food and bed. If you give money, you never know who ends up with it.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
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Many homeless don't want/can't get a job or are mentally ill or illegals so there's only so much you can do.
There are hundreds of fake gypsy beggars so when you give them money, you're giving money to the rom mafia.
If I had money to donate to the poor I'd donate it to shelters who give food and bed. If you give money, you never know who ends up with it.
This, for the most part. They have a better idea/understanding/experience/discernment than I do.
 

pauldun170

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Sep 26, 2011
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Is the interest of self-preservation worth the active avoidance of the homeless in some situations?
What you describe is not that of interaction with the homeless.

Case 1. In most cities, panhandling\begging is a profitable art form. Everyone is familiar with panhandling can easily point out the various signs\cups or "schtick".
What about someone, filthy shaking on a street corner....that happens to be close to a church? Are they begging? They don't have to because proximity to a church means "religious people". Religious people means folks taking pity, asking "WWJD". That results in $$$ earned by simply sitting on the sidewalk, huddled in a blanket within line of sight to a church entrance.
Same goes with camping out in front of an eatery. Free food, perhaps some change.
$$$ for looking hungry and pathetic.
When the crowds die down. Toss it in the plastic bag and head back to your apartment, shared living space.

The bigger the city, the larger the talent pool and the higher the competition for key spots. As a visitor, what you see as a poor "homeless person" can actually be a pawn of organized crime or simple a professional beggar.

Woman with infant or "crutches"?
Organized crime put her there and takes her cash

Case 2. Mentally ill. On the street and plain crazy does not mean "homeless". Lot of these folks go back to group homes at the end of the day and are on public assistance. Read the news enough and after stories of "homeless man" pushing people on to subway tracks are "homeless man" stabbing pregnant women you have plenty reason to be cautious.

One of my favorite stories comes from a P.A. cop who told me of a homeless who would camp out in the bus terminal at times. Once, after telling her to leave she hopped on the escalator, stuck her hands down her pants and the wiped her hands on along the hand rails. It was her time of the month.


Case 3. Drug addicts. Your money goes right into their veins.

Based on these cases, yes the interest of self-preservation is worth the active avoidance of the homeless.

Especially when you see, first hand, the emotional benefits that can come to both parties?
You do not know the actual emotional benefit to the other party. What you may see as sincere appreciation may very well be a practiced act performed hundred of times a week.

The emotional benefit is your own. You could say that you are doing this to please yourself, so that you can tell yourself that you are a good person helping others.

Am I causing myself spiritual harm in the name of "balancing" keeping myself safe and helping those in need? Is that WWJD??
Not if your actions are based on the reality of what I just told you.

Keep in mind that while the case listed above are accurate they do not represent all the people you see on the street.
 
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RearAdmiral

Platinum Member
Jun 24, 2004
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I generally don't support giving direct handouts to homeless/panhandlers but that's a personal call for each individual to make. I'd rather pay a little more in taxes and give these people access to social services that we have eliminated (mental health facilities stands out here) or cut back.

Were I religious I'd probably prefer to donate further to my church in support of such charitable programs. If my church drifted too far away from that I'd fall back to private charities.

Well I usually don't do direct handouts save for that 2 dollar bill story I posted. I like to buy meals and/or talk with them since that is in the actual verse.
 

RearAdmiral

Platinum Member
Jun 24, 2004
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What you describe is not that of interaction with the homeless.

Case 1. In most cities, panhandling\begging is a profitable art form. Everyone is familiar with panhandling can easily point out the various signs\cups or "schtick".
What about someone, filthy shaking on a street corner....that happens to be close to a church? Are they begging? They don't have to because proximity to a church means "religious people". Religious people means folks taking pity, asking "WWJD". That results in $$$ earned by simply sitting on the sidewalk, huddled in a blanket within line of sight to a church entrance.
Same goes with camping out in front of an eatery. Free food, perhaps some change.
$$$ for looking hungry and pathetic.
When the crowds die down. Toss it in the plastic bag and head back to your apartment, shared living space.

The bigger the city, the larger the talent pool and the higher the competition for key spots. As a visitor, what you see as a poor "homeless person" can actually be a pawn of organized crime or simple a professional beggar.

Woman with infant or "crutches"?
Organized crime put her there and takes her cash

Case 2. Mentally ill. On the street and plain crazy does not mean "homeless". Lot of these folks go back to group homes at the end of the day and are on public assistance. Read the news enough and after stories of "homeless man" pushing people on to subway tracks are "homeless man" stabbing pregnant women you have plenty reason to be cautious.

One of my favorite stories comes from a P.A. cop who told me of a homeless who would camp out in the bus terminal at times. Once, after telling her to leave she hopped on the escalator, stuck her hands down her pants and the wiped her hands on along the hand rails. It was her time of the month.


Case 3. Drug addicts. Your money goes right into their veins.

Based on these cases, yes the interest of self-preservation is worth the active avoidance of the homeless.

You do not know the actual emotional benefit to the other party. What you may see as sincere appreciation may very well be a practiced act performed hundred of times a week.

The emotional benefit is your own. You could say that you are doing this to please yourself, so that you can tell yourself that you are a good person helping others.

Not if your actions are based on the reality of what I just told you.

Keep in mind that while the case listed above are accurate they do not represent all the people you see on the street.

Very interesting. I know there are "professionals" and such out there and maybe the folks I interacted with put on a show. The woman I bought food at Starbucks was very clearly on drugs so I just got her some food/water there. This is why I usually stick to food.

I do sincerely want to always help others, and I try to take myself out of it, though it does happen. Navigating the homeless/poor scene is pretty difficult though given all that you posted.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
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Very interesting. I know there are "professionals" and such out there and maybe the folks I interacted with put on a show. The woman I bought food at Starbucks was very clearly on drugs so I just got her some food/water there. This is why I usually stick to food.

I do sincerely want to always help others, and I try to take myself out of it, though it does happen. Navigating the homeless/poor scene is pretty difficult though given all that you posted.

If you really want to help and actually try and have impact, local churches are probably the best places to focus your efforts.
food drives, clothing drives
 

RearAdmiral

Platinum Member
Jun 24, 2004
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I generally don't support giving direct handouts to homeless/panhandlers but that's a personal call for each individual to make. I'd rather pay a little more in taxes and give these people access to social services that we have eliminated (mental health facilities stands out here) or cut back.

Were I religious I'd probably prefer to donate further to my church in support of such charitable programs. If my church drifted too far away from that I'd fall back to private charities.

My church does invest time/money/energy into several programs for the poor/hungry in the area. I suppose I could specify where my money goes as to avoid it going into a general fund. This might be a good idea for me to look into further.

This makes me think of another point though, if I just give my money to various causes I can help people indirectly, but does the verse make that okay or do I need to get more personal and actually directly help people? This could be as easy as working in the local homeless shelter.

Mild example of this:
I met this guy when I went out for a 2 A.M. pizza run at school. He was chilling on the table outside the pizza place and he looked rather traveled. He was a young guy and not very threatening, very hippy/traveler like. I bought my pizza and sat down near him and studied him for a bit, then asked if he wanted a slice. We chatted for a while and he asked if he could stay at my place. I declined this and directed him to a huge common building where kids fall asleep all the time.

Afterwards I was a little conflicted about this. I gave him some food and showed him a place to stay temporarily. There was no way I could house him without affecting my roommates though. I did not have a solo room. This was my justification and I wonder what I would have done if I had a solo room.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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I generally don't support giving direct handouts to homeless/panhandlers but that's a personal call for each individual to make. I'd rather pay a little more in taxes and give these people access to social services that we have eliminated (mental health facilities stands out here) or cut back.
IMO that`s a cop out!

Most of these people will never use the public social services...
 

RearAdmiral

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Jun 24, 2004
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If you really want to help and actually try and have impact, local churches are probably the best places to focus your efforts.
food drives, clothing drives

Yes. I am beginning to think this should be the traveled path. There are already systems and such in place. There are lots of opportunities to donate food and time.

Although....my grandma worked at a local food pantry. A lot of the folks who came in were ornery old people who frankly didn't need the food and complained about the "selection." A lot of the other old people who worked there took food regularly, especially the "desired" items...WTF?!

Everywhere there seems to be people taking advantage. I have had thoughts of opening my own small food pantry, but I feel like that might open me up to some sort of ridiculous legal issues.
 

K1052

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Aug 21, 2003
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This makes me think of another point though, if I just give my money to various causes I can help people indirectly, but does the verse make that okay or do I need to get more personal and actually directly help people? This could be as easy as working in the local homeless shelter.

I would say that's up to how you view it. More personal involvement might be desirable in this context but doing it under a more organized setting (volunteering with charities , church groups, etc) I think would be in that vein.
 
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Charles Kozierok

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Afterwards I was a little conflicted about this.

IMO, you need not have been. Offering the guy some pizza was about as far as you could reasonably go; inviting a stranger back to your home, especially when you have roommates, would have been irresponsible.

IMO that`s a cop out!

Most of these people will never use the public social services...

Then tough luck for them.

Call me heartless if you like, but modern society does more to help people in poverty than any society that ever existed before a hundred or so years ago. We take tax dollars from people who work, and use them to create infrastructure to assist those who need it -- but when some people refuse to make use of those services, it's somehow incumbent on people to go even further to help them? No thanks.
 

Murloc

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Jun 24, 2008
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Call me heartless if you like, but modern society does more to help people in poverty than any society that ever existed before a hundred or so years ago. We take tax dollars from people who work, and use them to create infrastructure to assist those who need it -- but when some people refuse to make use of those services, it's somehow incumbent on people to go even further to help them? No thanks.
you're right, but if someone is mentally ill he should have a place to go/be taken to even if he prefers sleeping in parks and doesn't get welfare, because that's exactly the reason he's out of the system in the first place. Illegal foreigners? They picked their path.

@RearAdmiral people are often ungrateful and some old men behave like that just because they're old.
I don't think it's a job for people who are looking just for good feels, it probably takes a strong dedication to deal with mentally ill people and drug addicts.
Anyway I wouldn't open anything if you don't have experience and an association to back you up. Just go volunteer in already existing associations, you can always take a place of more importance later (if they have internal elective systems).
If you can't handle the fact that people aren't grateful, maybe you should look into your real reasons for doing this.
It seems like you do it because it's your duty as a christian: then why do you care so much if they treat you well or not?
That's not the jesus I remember, sounds too egoistical.
 

nanette1985

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Oct 12, 2005
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It's not all that easy to get help from the state, or from churches and so-called charity organizations. First you have to find them, then you have to get there, then you have to figure out the rules.

Still, good for you all for donating and helping.
 

RearAdmiral

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Jun 24, 2004
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you're right, but if someone is mentally ill he should have a place to go/be taken to even if he prefers sleeping in parks and doesn't get welfare, because that's exactly the reason he's out of the system in the first place. Illegal foreigners? They picked their path.

@RearAdmiral people are often ungrateful and some old men behave like that just because they're old.
I don't think it's a job for people who are looking just for good feels, it probably takes a strong dedication to deal with mentally ill people and drug addicts.
Anyway I wouldn't open anything if you don't have experience and an association to back you up. Just go volunteer in already existing associations, you can always take a place of more importance later (if they have internal elective systems).
If you can't handle the fact that people aren't grateful, maybe you should look into your real reasons for doing this.
It seems like you do it because it's your duty as a christian: then why do you care so much if they treat you well or not?
That's not the jesus I remember, sounds too egoistical.

I probably don't have the dedication to deal with the mentally ill and/or drug addicts, I know this. It isn't so much about them being ungrateful, but people who are well off stealing from good meaning food pantries? That makes me mad.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about me caring how I am treated?

I try my best to emulate what he might do in these situations, that is the goal. I've worked hard to try to eliminate the desire for good feels, but it will always be there. I just want to do it for the right reasons, to help folks who truly need it with my resources.
 

Charles Kozierok

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May 14, 2012
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Well, if people need help and can't get it, then that's a different matter. My "tough luck" comment was addressed specifically to the matter of people who have services available but choose not to use them. I will not be guilt-tripped into paying cash out of pocket to people who have options available to them but ignore them -- especially when I don't know what that cash will really be used for.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Call me heartless if you like, but modern society does more to help people in poverty than any society that ever existed before a hundred or so years ago. -- there is no debating that...we agree on that!!
We take tax dollars from people who work, and use them to create infrastructure to assist those who need it -- but when some people refuse to make use of those services, it's somehow incumbent on people to go even further to help them? No thanks.

All of what you said is quite true.....

But at the same time there are those who for no fault of there own cannot use those services...or have tried and are mentally not able or those services are over whelmed....

I wish I knew the solution...but I do not have a solution.

So I guess the ocassional Whooper and Fries will make me feel good about trying to help somebody...
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Did Jesus stop doing Jesus type things because he was afraid of being crucified? There is your answer. I think it is pretty clear that there should be zero "self" in Christianity.
 

Fern

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Sep 30, 2003
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Did Jesus stop doing Jesus type things because he was afraid of being crucified? There is your answer. I think it is pretty clear that there should be zero "self" in Christianity.

The answer is no, he didn't stop. But I'm pretty sure he explained that he needed to go through with the crucifixion to fulfill prophecy etc.

OP - No need to put yourself in harm's way. Use your judgment as to when it might not be safe, pray for wisdom so that you get it right.

And for the many reasons listed above I prefer giving to bonafide homeless shelters.

Fern
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Did Jesus stop doing Jesus type things because he was afraid of being crucified? There is your answer. I think it is pretty clear that there should be zero "self" in Christianity.

I agree. The thing is that in our society there are professional victims. If I think someone needs immediate assistance I'll give it. Otherwise the Salvation Army provides more help power dollar than just about anyone else and they aren't a huge careless bureaucracy. They live and work with these people.