Home Theater Help?

[IntrinsicValue]

YOyo:
The screen only takes up the full wall (with small border) if it is ?anamorphic?. Whether I get the lens to actually do that remains to be seen. When it is 16:9, it will have 15? borders on each side, so I should be able to floor-stand speakers comfortably next to each wall and still see the picture.

That was going to actually be another of my questions -- should I wall-mount the speakers or stand-mount them? Also, does it really make a difference if the speakers are at ear-level or not? Could I put the speakers on the ground (without stands) and tilt them slightly upward so they are pointed towards the audiences heads (like the opposite of pointing wall-mounted speakers downward)?

DisgruntledVirus:
Yes I planned on going 1080p, especially sitting 12? from a 100? (16:9) screen I felt it was necessary. I have visited avsforums ? lots of information to sift through, but I?ll keep digging.

The two sets of speakers are for different parts of the basement (see the diagram I posted). The one set is solely for the movie room, the other set is solely for the rest of the basement area. From YOyo's post, it sounds like I just need a quality receiver that will allow me to use ?zones?.

The masking definitely sounds like a possible barrier, but I?ll see if I can find reasonably priced solutions. Otherwise, I?ll be really looking at YOyo's solution. And thanks, I?ll check out the Berklines!

M0oG0oGaiPan:
I was going to use projector paint on the wall. Then a masking system if necessary, but was hoping I could purchase electronics to auto-mask for me.

mshan:
Yes it is possible that screen size will be too large, at which point I will just reduce the size. There will be a border around it though regardless ? it would never take up the ?full? wall. Also that view is a little deceiving ? remember those diagrams and 3d-models were created from some free software I found on the Internet, so they aren?t really the best. But I?ll definitely shrink it if it?s too big.

If the screen height is not right, I?ve considered taking off the wainscoting from that wall and moving the picture down a bit. I was going to put a cabinet on that wall anyway, so the wainscoting isn?t necessary there.

So you are saying I should not use a receiver that uses zones, I should get two separate systems? The settings are really that vastly different for movies vs. music?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

You say that there's 15" on each side when it's 16:9... so when it's 2.35:1, how much space is there on the sides?
It sounds like you're saying just the border?

If possible, speakers should be moved away from walls to the side and behind them. I had to compromise my own system a bit by moving the screen up higher than I would have liked in order to fit my speakers underneath them. I will be moving yet again soon and hopefully my room will then be large enough for me to drop the screen a bit and move my speakers to the outside of it while still keeping them away from the walls.

If the screen takes up the whole width of the wall, then it seems like you're either going to have to mount above of below. It might be difficult to aim them to hit several seating locations well though, but that should work. Ideally you'd actually have the speakers behind the screen itself with the screen being acoustically transparent so the sound comes right from the screen. You're going to have to make compromises whatever you do.

If you stand mounted them, that would put them below the screen though and that would mean that a lot of the sound would get blocked for the 2nd row of seats, right?
With multiple rows on a non-elevated seating arrangement, I guess wall-mounted above the screen would be the better compromise for your situation?

 

[mshan]

I say get the projector before you do anything else. You will find out for yourself how large an image your eyes are comfortable with (also will let you find out what optimal seating position is) and what screen height is comfortable for you, and even how bright an image your eyes are comforable with.

Even a top of the line Stewart Studiotek screen will only cost a couple thousand dollars, and a slightly lesser Draper or or Carada screen might be available under $1000.

Movie soundtracks can sound very good, even with entry level electronics and home theater speakers (you pay a premium for subterranean bass and ability to play very loudly.). A slight boom an sizzle type home theater rig may work well with movie soundtracks, but can easily become very fatiguing for 2 channel music reproduction. If 2 channel music is important to you, buy a separate rig optimized for audio reproduction and just put it in a different part of the basement.

My personal taste for home theater sound reproduction is simply that it produces dialogue easily and without me having to strain to understand, and then that system actively doesn't do anything negative that draws my attention away from beautiful large screen image (basically sound just draws me into movie, without drawing any attention to itself).

Everybody's tastes will be different, so that's why I say dip your foot in the water first, then define for yourself by watching lots of dvds and hdtv to see exactly what's important to you. Boom and sizzle type speaker systems can wow you immediately, but may start to fatigue your ears when you try and listen for extended period of time, so if you find some finalist speaker systems and electronics, take dvds you enjoy and audition the system for more than just a couple minutes to make sure they won't make your ears bleed if you try and watch a whole dvd.

 

[OLpal]

I'd like to injet a little common sense approach here !!
Instead of just saying what's the best i can get for $10,000

1st. i'd go to my family doctor & ask for a hearing test to determine if you'd even benefit from high $$$$ gear....
After combat duty i have problems [as many do] hearing clearly esp. high frequencies
where crstal clear sound comes to life.. At least i can still hear, others can't..

2. After haviing a 6 1/2 foot Kloss Nova Beam for many yrs. before it fizzled,, i question your choice of TV monitor..
Why not something on the order of a 73" Mitsubishi [ i would think this would be a much better picture] with a High Quality 7.1 sound system !! Might have $5000 left over even !!

Like another poster i must stress proper acoustics & lighting in your entertainment room..

Who & what are you trying to impress your eyes & ears or someone elses ????

Just a different perspective !! OL'PAL GARY

 

[master7045]

If you aren't set on a receiver yet, I'd check out NAD receivers or a pre/pro combo. Thier output is far superior than most other receivers and have an amazing sound. I do not own one, but have demoed them before and they are great sounding speakers. Their flaghsip model receiver (link below) has 4 HDMI inputs on it, that are all 1.3 spec, so you'll be able to pass Dolby TrueHD and the DTS Master audio through it (not sure on the correct name for the DTS one though). I really like B&W speakers as well. Very natural sound with incredible accurate/detailed sound. I wouldn't go as crazy on the speakers/receiver/amp setup and maybe invest in some good sound dampening materials for your walls, or hire an audio engineer to do it for you.

The B&W 600 series is a great bang for your buck (hard to use that sentence in a 10K setup though). It ultimately comes down to your preferences and what you think sounds good. Asking advice for the "best" HT setup is like starting a political debate, you just come out scratching your head.

Again this is what I would consider a good audio setup, others here will disagree, but at least you are getting a lot of opinions which should point you to the right direction.

http://nadelectronics.com/prod...urround-Sound-Receiver

 

[IntrinsicValue]

YOyo:
That is one of the dilemmas I am facing - the room configuration may not allow for me to have ideal speaker-placement. There is a minimal 4" border around the screen at 2.35:1. So, like you, I may have to have the screen higher than desired, and place the speakers underneath, or wall-hang them and hang them half-way between the screen and listener (so as not to block the screen), or I'll have to get an acoustically transparent screen (which I believe costs a lot of money), and put the speakers behind them. Unfortunately, this will shrink the room-length, so I may only be able to have one row of seating if I use this method.

mshan:
That's a good idea to get the projector first. The problem is, projector technology seems to change quickly, whereas speaker technology is pretty stagnant. But if I get all the components with 6 months of each other, then I might just go ahead and get the projector first.

OLpal:
Actually if you re-read my original post, I didn't ask what the best was for $10,000. I said that was my budget limit, and that I wanted the best bang-for-buck. If that ends up being $5,000 that's great -- if not, I'm willing to go up to $10K at most. And I realize I'm the final judge of what looks/sounds good. However, there are a lot of experienced people on this forum who may be able to steer me in the right direction so I'm not spending a year researching things that don't matter.

Regarding a 73" Mitsubishi - the price I found was $3,200 - you can get some quality projects for around $1,000 to $3,000. I'm not completely against a fixed-screen, but I'd want to be sure exactly what size screen is best for the room dimensions before buying one.

master7045:
NAD is actually on my list of brands that I want to investigate further. Along with Creek, Arcam, Adcom and Rotel. I've also heard great things about B&W. I'm going to research more on those, along with RBH, Usher, and now Rockets. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Something you might think about is whether your seats are reclined at all. My seating is reclined quite a bit actually which means that sitting on it you're already kind of directed upward which makes my higher than ideal screen work better in my room.

I actually got taller speakers as well so that changed how the speakers interacted with the video from different seating areas.
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp...20Front%20Speakers.JPG
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp.../Living%20Room%201.JPG

After
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp.../12-09-2007/Front1.JPG
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp...ng/12-09-2007/Side.JPG
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp...2-09-2007/Entrance.JPG

Before the height of my speakers was just below the bottom of my image, so I had the speakers just inside the edges of the screen.
Now they're several inches taller and I've compensated by moving them out sideways and farther forward to a place that sounded really good again.

Speaker placement matters a lot, so I would ideally want you to be able to get the speakers in your room and then be able to play around with their placement. Distance away from walls behind and to the side, toe-in, distance between speakers, etc. are all things you're going to want to adjust once you get the speakers in your room.

In general this matters more for music though, which is one reason some people get a dedicated music system if they're really serious about music. On a HT system you end up making a lot of compromises that don't necessarily need to be made for an audio-only system. That said, you can get a system that does both quite well, but it's tougher to do. A common comment from people who buy quality speakers for their HT is that they end up listening to a lot of music on it since it sounds so good for it.

Due to a number of reasons (budget, space, interest in music, etc.) I just have my single system doing everything. I'm quite happy with the results and my overall system was a very similar budget to what you're working with. I think the only significant thing that I have that I haven't seen you mention in your plans is a tactile sound system. I'm using the el-cheapo aura bass shakers which was a $150-ish addition to my system to get it all set up and running but I'm really glad I did it. I'm sorry to give you one more thing to worry about, but it might be worth researching.

Oh and I see you're planning to research Rockets.

I think you should start a thread on the AV123 forum saying you want to do an audition in your state/area to see if there are any current members that would be willing to audition for you. AV123 is starting a formal program for auditions from current owners across the country but it's not off the ground yet. In general, people that are into this sort of stuff love to show off their systems to other people so I hope you can find someone that will let you have a listen and talk about these topics.
http://av123forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9
I've done a few auditions for people myself and went to one before I placed my own order. Some of the other Internet direct brands have forums as well if you want to try your luck at auditioning them as well. Often times people with these kind of brands for speakers will also have internet direct subwoofers so you might be able to kill two birds with one stone.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: IntrinsicValue
YOyo:
That is one of the dilemmas I am facing - the room configuration may not allow for me to have ideal speaker-placement. There is a minimal 4" border around the screen at 2.35:1. So, like you, I may have to have the screen higher than desired, and place the speakers underneath, or wall-hang them and hang them half-way between the screen and listener (so as not to block the screen), or I'll have to get an acoustically transparent screen (which I believe costs a lot of money), and put the speakers behind them. Unfortunately, this will shrink the room-length, so I may only be able to have one row of seating if I use this method.

mshan:
That's a good idea to get the projector first. The problem is, projector technology seems to change quickly, whereas speaker technology is pretty stagnant. But if I get all the components with 6 months of each other, then I might just go ahead and get the projector first.

OLpal:
Actually if you re-read my original post, I didn't ask what the best was for $10,000. I said that was my budget limit, and that I wanted the best bang-for-buck. If that ends up being $5,000 that's great -- if not, I'm willing to go up to $10K at most. And I realize I'm the final judge of what looks/sounds good. However, there are a lot of experienced people on this forum who may be able to steer me in the right direction so I'm not spending a year researching things that don't matter.

Regarding a 73" Mitsubishi - the price I found was $3,200 - you can get some quality projects for around $1,000 to $3,000. I'm not completely against a fixed-screen, but I'd want to be sure exactly what size screen is best for the room dimensions before buying one.

master7045:
NAD is actually on my list of brands that I want to investigate further. Along with Creek, Arcam, Adcom and Rotel. I've also heard great things about B&W. I'm going to research more on those, along with RBH, Usher, and now Rockets. Thanks for the suggestion!

I would personally go for a projector for your price range and ultimate goals for the system. It offers much more flexibility, and also if you want to display without black bars a projector is the ONLY way to get that done.

Are you going to listen to any other speakers in addition to those? You should take a serious look at Focal, and also Paradigm if they are around. Focal speakers are some of the most transparent speakers I have ever heard. Focal and Paradigm are both quality speakers in addition to B&W and Rockets.

 

[OLpal]

Hey IntrinsicValue
Don't want you to think i was talking down these knowlegable people or your self !!
Just a really high $$$ system is not worth it to someone with hearing loss or even partial loss like me..
So a hearing test would be smart before buying a really good system to prevent wasting all precious $$$.. [IF YOU CAN'T HEAR IT , WHY SPEND FOR IT]
On the 73" Mits just a thought where high quality pic LCD w/DLP should look better to your eyes than projector sys. IMHO & possibly a really good $2000 7.1 system to complement it !!
Personally i like to "CRANK IT UP" for Nascar, NFL, & other sports, WITH MY 5.1 SYS & I WENT WITH THE SAMSUNG 61" OVER THE MITS 73" OR 65" MOSTLY BECAUSE THIS WAS BEST picture quality & sound FOR MY PERSONAL SENSES !!!
On my old Kloss 6.5 ft.,,, i had around 12 to 14 speakers extra amps & all that cool old school stuff moving sound in my video room & it was a very cool atmosphere for sports & movies !!

Wish you the best for your new entertainment room !!
OL'PAL GARY



OLpal:
Actually if you re-read my original post, I didn't ask what the best was for $10,000. I said that was my budget limit, and that I wanted the best bang-for-buck. If that ends up being $5,000 that's great -- if not, I'm willing to go up to $10K at most. And I realize I'm the final judge of what looks/sounds good. However, there are a lot of experienced people on this forum who may be able to steer me in the right direction so I'm not spending a year researching things that don't matter.

Regarding a 73" Mitsubishi - the price I found was $3,200 - you can get some quality projects for around $1,000 to $3,000. I'm not completely against a fixed-screen, but I'd want to be sure exactly what size screen is best for the room dimensions before buying one.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Well OP I know you were going to go look at B&W's, and I went to a B&W dealer last night and looked at Martin Logan electrostatics (not a fan, they are so directional. As soon as you stand up you are out of the "sweet spot" and they sound bad if you are not in the "sweet spot"), and the B&W speakers. I was very impressed by them. They gave a good "presence" to the music and also gave it nice depth. I was looking at the 683's, but also listened to the 804's ($4500/pair a bit out of my price range) and they sounded quite good. The speakers seemed to have a very flat response that didn't "color" the recording (with either too much bass, or too "harsh" a high end), which I also liked. I am very torn on the B&W's or the Focal 816's, but am going to work on getting the Focal dealer to let me do an in home trial of them (the B&W dealer said they would already). I am not sure if you are going to look at Focal's, but IMO the B&W's and Focal's are some of the best sounding speakers in my price range (~$1200-1500 for two front towers).

Just wanted to post about the B&W's, and want to hear the OP's thoughts from auditioning different speakers.

 

[IntrinsicValue]

DisgruntledVirus, I plan on checking out the B&W's next weekend. I actually just got home from demo'ing some speakers at a local store called Extend Technologies.

Here are the only brands they had available:
- Totem Acoustic (Forest)
- RBH (Signature 1266-SE)
- Revel (Studio 2)
- Klipsch (RF-62)

But below are my thoughts on each brand. I ordered the list in the same order that I heard them. I listened to the same music on all speaker sets. Unfortunately, they were not all in the same rooms and did not use the same equipment.

Please keep in mind I'm not some elite audiophile or anything, just my amateur opinions. I don't know all the terminology, so if I mess something try not to abuse me too badly.

Totem : These were setup in a large room with no treatments. They were sitting alongside the RBH speakers and hooked up to the same equipment as them. These actually didn't sound bad. They were the first set I listened to, so I had nothing to compare them to. The music did seem a little flat, and lacked some depth, but overall they sounded pretty nice. I wish I could have heard these again (after hearing the others), but after all of my demo'ing it was closing-time.

RBH : These were setup in a large room with no treatments. They were sitting alongside the Totem speakers and hooked up to the same equipment as them. Honestly, these sounded incredible. And it was only after I heard how incredible they sounded did I find out they cost $2,800 per pair. I have no other high-end speakers to compare these to unfortunately, but these seemed so clear and precise -- especially when compared to the other speaker set I just listened to. I was absolutely amazed by these.

Revel : This was setup in a medium-sized room with acoustic paneling. The equipment was in a cabinet, so I didn't get to see equipment brand names or configurations or anything. After listening, my wife said "Even I can hear a difference between these and the last speakers" (RBH). Well, basically the entire sound seemed abrasive. I'm not sure if that's the right word, but it definitely did not have the same clarity and precision as the RBH. Whether that is because of the speaker, or how they have it setup (to favor the RBH to get you to buy them), I don't know.

Klipsch : This was setup in a medium-sized room with acoustic paneling. The equipment was in a cabinet, so I didn't get to see equipment brand names or configurations or anything. But the treble/tweeter or whatever it is called sounded very harsh to me. The rest of it sounded fine, it was just the very high parts that seemed distracting. Again, whether that is because of the speaker, or how they have it setup (to favor the RBH to get you to buy them), I don't know.

So overall it was an OK experience. Honestly, I wish I could get all these speakers on a level playing field (preferably my house!) because with different configurations and system setups, I'm sure I didn't hear the full potential of every set. At any rate, like I said I'm hopefully going to go demo some B&W's and JBL's this upcoming weekend. I'll post an update then!

 

[mshan]

Instead of just shopping for speakers, you should be shopping for a complete package of speakers, sub, and audio video receiver from one dealer.

You may want to call the dealer, describe your budget, viewing and listening habits, and home theater space, and then arrange for appointment (they may be able to provide you with more attentive service on week night, especially if you can schedule when they have no other appointments) ask them to set up that specific bundle of components for you. Then bring dvds and music you know well and enjoy and just trust your impressions after at least two auditions (to make sure it was not just wow factor steering you to a particular system). If you just let dealer demo demo with their chosen dvds and cds, of course system they want to sound amazing will sound absolutely amazing.

If they have projectors and screens too, just presenting them with your total budget and seeing best they can do (with installation and optimization of projector and screen), you may get a good deal even if actual discount from msrp is only say 10, 15, or 20% off of retail for whole package of audio and video components.

You can piece meal your system by getting lowest price on the internet, but you may not be happy with result over time. Certain components just work well together, whether by serendipity or because they were voiced together. A good dealer should sell components that are known to work well together (just don't run off and buy at slightly lower price on the internet.

You may not have the audiophile / videophile vocabulary to precisely describe what you are hearing, but trust your eyes and ears. Just be aware that an initial "wow" that's amazing impression might quickly fatiguing over time (depends upon whether "wow" is due to true resolution, or just in your face boom and sizzle tonal balance). Audition finalist systems at least twice, with some time between auditions so your impressions can sink in (otherwise, it's like going to a big box retailer and buying a tv just because they set brightness and contrast to thermonuclear max).

I wouldn't get too concerned about sound treatment of demo room, but just upon how demo room size compares to your home theater space (speakers tonal balance can change at different spl, so if you audition in 20 x 30 room, yet your space is only 10 x 18, chosen speaker could sound significantly different in your home). Some speakers need certain loudness level to come alive. If you auditon in a demo space that is in the ballpark of your home theater space, just adjust sound pressure level to what you like (and, IMO, instantaneous abx switching, even if level adjusted, is absolutely meaningless, because who actually listens to music or watches dvds that way?)

Higher end speakers tend to be more transparent, so they more accurately reflect the quality, or lack there of, of upstream components (avr and dvd player). Entry level speakers, as long as they are competently driven, will pretty much sound the same, so you are just buying their house sound, along with more bass extension and ability to play louder and louder (this is not necessarily a bad thing).

If you are going to piece meal via internet, perhaps just PMing YoYo and describing more accurately to him your home theater needs and let him lead you to a combo of dvd player, audio video receiver, and full complement of home theater speakers he knows works well together.

Otherwise, you could quite possibly end up with a high priced rig that basically produces refined noise, not music or convincing home theater sound tracks.

EDIT: customers probably often come in with common total budgets, so you should ask dealer what systems they recommend at say $2500 - $3000 total (excluding projector and screen), and also $5000 - $6000 (again, excluding projector and screen). This is total guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if $10000 total for all audio video gear (including installation of projector and screen and competent, but not overpriced cabling) is another common price point and one that they can potentially offer their best overall value.

And if they try and gouge you on cabling, you can always fall back on http://www.monoprice.com or http://www.bluejeanscables.com.