Home Theater Help?

[IntrinsicValue]

Hello,

I have some questions regarding a mini-theater I am creating in a small space in our basement. The small space in question is approximately 10'4" wide by 17'8" long. The budget is about $10K -- but of course I don't want to spend lots of money for minor increases in performance -- I'm all about the best bang-for-buck.

DETAILS:
[$0 - paint wall] 100" screen (16:9), 130" anamorphic (2.35:1)
[$550 x 1] Denon AVR-1907 Receiver
[$600 x 3] Denon DRA-697ci Amps/Receivers
[$850/pair x 3] Ascend Sierra-1 Speakers
[$438 x 1] Ascend Sierra-1 Center
[$1000 x 1] SVS PB12-Plus Subwoofer

That leaves about $3,000 for a projector, and $1000 for CD/DVD-players and such. With that in mind, I have a lot of questions.

QUESTIONS:
1. First obvious question - are there any places above that I am over or under-spending?
2. For the indicated room size, do you recommend 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 (or even .2) -- and why?
3. Should I get two smaller subwoofers and place them front/rear, or one big one?
4. We have wainscoting lining the bottom 3-feet of the wall - does this need acoustical treatment? If so, what kind?
5. How far back is an "ideal" sitting distance for a screen size of about 100" (16:9)? Give a range, if appropriate.
6. Does Blu-Ray play DVD's? If not, should I buy BOTH kinds of players?

Any answers you can give would be appreciated. Or any extra advice that I may be overlooking. Thanks!

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

What's with the 4 receivers?

 

[IntrinsicValue]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
What's with the 4 receivers?

Thanks for checking this out.

I was going to use the AVR-1907 as the pre-amp only, then use the DRA-697ci's as the amps. And I was going to plug each pair of Sierra-1's into each amp, thus I got 3 of them. Bad idea?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

In general I think you should probably order a single pair of Sierras before going for the full 7.0 set to make sure you like them. (Possibly demo a couple other pairs of speakers as well in your home to make sure you're getting the set that suits you best)
Have you done a demo of any retail brands? Have you checked to see if you can get a demo of any internet direct brands from owners in your area?

I'm most concerned about the receivers choice.

I don't think the 1907 even does audio over HDMI?
(EDIT: No HDMI at all?)

I would suggest rather than getting four $600 units, that you get a single nice receiver and possibly an amp to go along with it.

Emotiva has some really exciting products coming out as does Outlaw audio.
http://emotiva.com/

On your budget you could even go separates from a company like that rather than a receiver.

I have a room of similar size and am doing 7.2 in it. I think you'd be happy with anything from 5.1 up to 7.2
You have enough of a budget that you're not going to be sacrificing anything in particular by buying more speakers.

Does your room have openings to other areas? If it's just 10x18, it shouldn't be too tough to get nice bass levels going in there. Overall I think there are some stronger options out the at the $1000 level for subwoofers than the SVS PB-12 Plus.
Yikes, ETA is July... but
http://av123.com/index.php?pag...m_virtuemart&Itemid=37
Epik subwoofers and Elemental designs also have some very serious offerings that seem to offer great value in comparison to the SVS and HSU options.
If you're going with SVS, the new Ultra looks like the way to go if you can squeeze that in.

Treating your room would be a great way to get the most out of the audio end of things. I don't have enough experience in it to really give you useful advice but I have links to resources that you can check out in the sticky thread.

I like to sit about 10-12 feet back from a 100" screen.

The PS3 is a great player to get and will play SD-DVDs as well as Blu-Ray discs. Are you talking about HD-DVD or just SD-DVD?

Are you really serious about music? You could probably get by playing everything out of your Blu-Ray player and skip a dedicated CD player. I'm no audiophile though so if you are, then feel free to disregard that

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Hehe. I was just going to recommend that he go with Emotiva but Yoyo already beat me to it.

Anyway, for the kind of money you're talking about spending you might want to specifically look at these:

http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/mps2.html

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Hehe. I was just going to recommend that he go with Emotiva but Yoyo already beat me to it.

Anyway, for the kind of money you're talking about spending you might want to specifically look at these:

http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/mps2.html

With the new units coming out from Emotiva and Outlaw shortly, I would personally either wait for them to come out or look for a different pre-pro or receiver to use as a pre-pro that supports the new audio formats over HDMI, has some really nice auto-calibration features, and nice video processing.

(Integra 9.8 / Onkyo 875/885 / Upper Denon units / etc.)

I just think it would be a shame to still get a receiver or pre-pro that didn't have all the HDMI features on this budget.

I have no doubt that the MMC1 would be a better choice than the 1907 for pre-pro duties though if those were the only two choices, especially in terms of audio quality.

 

[Operandi]

Just by looking at that center channel I would have to question the Sierra Audio choice. The center channel looks just like the mains laid on their side, unless its a coaxial driver you can't do that and expect good results.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Operandi
Just by looking at that center channel I would have to question the Sierra Audio choice. The center channel looks just like the mains laid on their side, unless its a coaxial driver you can't do that and expect good results.

Rockets are on sale :evil:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Hehe. I was just going to recommend that he go with Emotiva but Yoyo already beat me to it.

Anyway, for the kind of money you're talking about spending you might want to specifically look at these:

http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/mps2.html

With the new units coming out from Emotiva and Outlaw shortly, I would personally either wait for them to come out or look for a different pre-pro or receiver to use as a pre-pro that supports the new audio formats over HDMI, has some really nice auto-calibration features, and nice video processing.

(Integra 9.8 / Onkyo 875/885 / Upper Denon units / etc.)

I just think it would be a shame to still get a receiver or pre-pro that didn't have all the HDMI features on this budget.

I have no doubt that the MMC1 would be a better choice than the 1907 for pre-pro duties though if those were the only two choices, especially in terms of audio quality.

I hear you. I was linking to the best bang for the buck now in that price range.

Personally, I'd go lower on a decent, current A/V receiver and put more money into the speakers. People tend to keep speakers for years and change out the components more often.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Hehe. I was just going to recommend that he go with Emotiva but Yoyo already beat me to it.

Anyway, for the kind of money you're talking about spending you might want to specifically look at these:

http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/mps2.html

With the new units coming out from Emotiva and Outlaw shortly, I would personally either wait for them to come out or look for a different pre-pro or receiver to use as a pre-pro that supports the new audio formats over HDMI, has some really nice auto-calibration features, and nice video processing.

(Integra 9.8 / Onkyo 875/885 / Upper Denon units / etc.)

I just think it would be a shame to still get a receiver or pre-pro that didn't have all the HDMI features on this budget.

I have no doubt that the MMC1 would be a better choice than the 1907 for pre-pro duties though if those were the only two choices, especially in terms of audio quality.

I hear you. I was linking to the best bang for the buck now in that price range.

Personally, I'd go lower on a decent, current A/V receiver and put more money into the speakers. People tend to keep speakers for years and change out the components more often.

I agree about the importance of speakers. I think with about $4000 budgeted for speakers and sub already though that it's safe to bump up the electronics budget a bit to go with as well. There sure are a lot of options and paths that open up when there's money to work with. I think it's going to be essential to get some personal experience listening to different options before making a final decision

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Hehe. I was just going to recommend that he go with Emotiva but Yoyo already beat me to it.

Anyway, for the kind of money you're talking about spending you might want to specifically look at these:

http://www.emotiva.com/mmc1.html

http://www.emotiva.com/mps2.html

With the new units coming out from Emotiva and Outlaw shortly, I would personally either wait for them to come out or look for a different pre-pro or receiver to use as a pre-pro that supports the new audio formats over HDMI, has some really nice auto-calibration features, and nice video processing.

(Integra 9.8 / Onkyo 875/885 / Upper Denon units / etc.)

I just think it would be a shame to still get a receiver or pre-pro that didn't have all the HDMI features on this budget.

I have no doubt that the MMC1 would be a better choice than the 1907 for pre-pro duties though if those were the only two choices, especially in terms of audio quality.

I hear you. I was linking to the best bang for the buck now in that price range.

Personally, I'd go lower on a decent, current A/V receiver and put more money into the speakers. People tend to keep speakers for years and change out the components more often.

I agree about the importance of speakers. I think with about $4000 budgeted for speakers and sub already though that it's safe to bump up the electronics budget a bit to go with as well. There sure are a lot of options and paths that open up when there's money to work with. I think it's going to be essential to get some personal experience listening to different options before making a final decision

For that kind of cash he may find a place that's willing to allow him to demo speakers in the room before he buys, which would be ideal.

 

[SlickSnake]

OMG, I spent like 30 minutes replying to his thread about room acoustics and speaker placement, and somehow I got auto logged out, and lost it all.

But I will attempt to recap this post in short form. You guys now said a lot that I was going to, anyhow.

The wainscotting is less of a big deal acousticaly than what the interior wall construction might be. Not worth a refinish there. The floor is also important, and carpet would be advisable, or a thick rubber tile floor like I use, heh.

However, acousticaly the ceiling might be another matter. If it is exposed wood and beams to the floor above, you might get a reflective and overly bright sounding room. It might cause a bit of listener fatigue at volume after a movie or 2. Any type of insulation in the ceiling, like if it is already finished out in sheetrock, is a good thing. If it is unfinished, even cork or a blown on insulation over the exposed wood surface would go a long way to making the room more acousticaly friendly. If your not sure, you can always add insulation to it later if your HT gives you a frequent headache.

The sub is a good choice, because it allows for a PEQ adjustment to prevent a boomy and exaggerated sounding bass. You get the best reponse typically in a corner. You may want to add another sub, though, it looks like those 2 way speakers are not going to provide much low frequency support.

The 4 receivers is a waste of resources, space and power and will cause a lot of heat, and a potential remote control headache. Way easier to manage a 7.1 array using one integrated receiver like this AVR-4308ci plus you get a lot more power per channel and a lot more features, too. Of course, that's a retail price comparison to what you showed. If in doubt, get the better AVR-5308ci for a discount someplace online.

You might want to consider a beefier 3 or 4 way front channel speaker array, and a 3 or 4 way center, too. But a 2 way surround channel is acceptable. I don't know what those speakers sound like, but they look a bit anemic for my tastes, for that price.

Most likely you will want a 7.1 or 7.2 for that room, since it is a bit long. But you can always try a 5.1 to start with, and upgrade a sub or 1 or 2 speakers later if needed.

Hope this helps. Good Luck!

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: Operandi
Just by looking at that center channel I would have to question the Sierra Audio choice. The center channel looks just like the mains laid on their side, unless its a coaxial driver you can't do that and expect good results.

Rockets are on sale :evil:

Rockets?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: Operandi
Just by looking at that center channel I would have to question the Sierra Audio choice. The center channel looks just like the mains laid on their side, unless its a coaxial driver you can't do that and expect good results.

Rockets are on sale :evil:

Rockets?

http://av123.com/index.php?opt...tegory_id=19&Itemid=37
Discounts + Free shipping

One of the many options in the OP's pricerange

(They're what I'm using in my HT so I'm biased towards them)

 

[Operandi]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: Operandi

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello

Originally posted by: Operandi
Just by looking at that center channel I would have to question the Sierra Audio choice. The center channel looks just like the mains laid on their side, unless its a coaxial driver you can't do that and expect good results.

Rockets are on sale :evil:

Rockets?

http://av123.com/index.php?opt...tegory_id=19&Itemid=37
Discounts + Free shipping

One of the many options in the OP's pricerange

(They're what I'm using in my HT so I'm biased towards them)

Oh yeah, those are supposed to be really good.

I haven't heard them but I have heard the Vifa tweeter they use. Really nice driver, you usually find it much more expensive speakers.

 

[OVERKILL]

Like Yoyo, I also have Rockets.

Pair of 850 Signatures, Bigfoot Center (RSC200 Signature) and an SVS 20-39 PC Plus Sub.

The Rockets are awesome speakers and the subwoofer pounds cleanly. :thumbsup:


You won't go wrong with Rockets

 

[Tifababy]

I have the ascend 340SE fronts and center with HTM200 surrounds and have been very pleased. I paired them with a SVS PB10 sub for a room that is about 15x24.

Also, if you plan on having a 100" 16x9 screen and 130" 2.35:1 screen, then don't forget to budget for an anamorphic lens. Those aren't cheap! Typically more than a low end projector.

 

[IntrinsicValue]

Thanks for all the responses.

YOyo:
- No, I have not had a chance to demo anything. Hopefully I will this weekend.
- I didn?t know HDMI was that important for audio ? I likely won?t be buying until toward the end of this year, so hopefully HDMI will be more prevalent in audio electronics then.
- I?m definitely open to other ideas for the Subwoofer, I?ll check out av123.com
- Well I meant HD-DVD and Blu-Ray simultaneously, but I guess I could settle for just Blu-Ray + SD-DVD.
- I don?t believe I?m an audiophile.
- Is it possible to have TWO sets of speakers hooked up to the same equipment, then use a ?switch? to change between each set?

YOyo & TastesLikeChicken:
- I?ll check out Emotiva ? but what does ?go separates instead of a receiver? mean?

Operandi:
- Any other speaker suggestions besides the Ascends? I?m open to all options.

SlickSnake:
- Sorry you lost your response ? but thanks for retyping most of it!
- The floor is carpeted, the ceiling has those drop-down tiles. Is this OK?
- The wall is just a typical wall ? the bottom is wainscoting, the top is painted drywall.
- What is a 3 or 4 channel array? What does that mean?
- I?m open to other suggestions besides the Ascends ? I heard the Sierra-1?s were good, but what else do you have in mind?

OverKill:
- I?ll check out the Rockets for sure. How do you like the SVS sub?

Tifababy:
- Yes you?re absolutely right about that lens ? they?re extremely expensive. That might have to wait until next year.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: IntrinsicValue
YOyo & TastesLikeChicken:
- I?ll check out Emotiva ? but what does ?go separates instead of a receiver? mean?

Esentially you were using four receivers to do what a pre-amp/amplifier system could accomplish and for the money you'd be spending you could get some higher end components than the ones you had specified.

 

[SlickSnake]

The drop down ceiling tiles should be good for baffling the sound. Only problem there might be if they rattle around during loud passages. But other than that, you should be fine.

Well, by array, I was just refering to either the number of speakers in the cabinet or the array meaning the speaker placement or set up. Sorry if that confused you. But generally for a left and right front speaker configuration 3 or more speakers give you a more expansive soundfield and also give you a better frequency response. And the center channel will get a lot of use, so 3 or 4 speakers in a center channel cabinet is a good idea, generally.

I personally like the sound of the Infinity Interlude and Beta speakers, and Infinity has various speakers at every price range. But the Interlude is an older model, and the Betas are getting hard to find new. Some of the newer high end Infinity speakers are now using square drivers and other advanced speaker technology that I haven't had time to auditon lately. But you really need to hear the speakers before you buy them. Don't just take someones word for speakers. We all hear a bit differently, and you may not like what someone else does.

Here's a few links you might want to look at.

Here's a site with good prices, free shipping and no tax on the Infinity Betas. Vann's

You might be able to find a good deal on Harman Audio or on Harman Audio Ebay Store

 

[mshan]

What projector are you planning to buy?

And is your primary use going to be dvds, and / or hdtv?

And is audio going to be used as primary music system, or will it be just for home theater soundtracks?


http://www.projectorcentral.com/screen_size.htm
http://myhometheater.homestead...istancecalculator.html
(this can give you estimates of recommended screen size and viewing distance, but there is no substitute for getting your chosen projector in house and use it for a while before proceeding wtih anything else, including screen. Just project onto wall for a while so you get a better feel for screen image size and screen height seems right and comfortable for you).

 

[OVERKILL]

IntrinsicValue,

The 20-39 PC Plus pounds very hard and clean too.
It actually feels like too much sub but who cares,
I'd rather have too much of something than not enough when it comes to A/V.

Definitely checkout AV123.com.
They have seriously high quality speakers at fair prices and like YoYo said, their currently having a sale.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: IntrinsicValue
Thanks for all the responses.

YOyo:
- No, I have not had a chance to demo anything. Hopefully I will this weekend.
- I didn?t know HDMI was that important for audio ? I likely won?t be buying until toward the end of this year, so hopefully HDMI will be more prevalent in audio electronics then.
- I?m definitely open to other ideas for the Subwoofer, I?ll check out av123.com
- Well I meant HD-DVD and Blu-Ray simultaneously, but I guess I could settle for just Blu-Ray + SD-DVD.
- I don?t believe I?m an audiophile.
- Is it possible to have TWO sets of speakers hooked up to the same equipment, then use a ?switch? to change between each set?

YOyo & TastesLikeChicken:
- I?ll check out Emotiva ? but what does ?go separates instead of a receiver? mean?

Operandi:
- Any other speaker suggestions besides the Ascends? I?m open to all options.

SlickSnake:
- Sorry you lost your response ? but thanks for retyping most of it!
- The floor is carpeted, the ceiling has those drop-down tiles. Is this OK?
- The wall is just a typical wall ? the bottom is wainscoting, the top is painted drywall.
- What is a 3 or 4 channel array? What does that mean?
- I?m open to other suggestions besides the Ascends ? I heard the Sierra-1?s were good, but what else do you have in mind?

OverKill:
- I?ll check out the Rockets for sure. How do you like the SVS sub?

Tifababy:
- Yes you?re absolutely right about that lens ? they?re extremely expensive. That might have to wait until next year.

Replies are in order of what I bolded.

When auditioning burn a cd with songs you know intimately. The better you know the song the more you can differentiate between speakers. Also for the songs orchestral music is some of the best to audition with, as it has highs and lows and is very dynamic. Since I don't know many people that listen to that on a regular basis (and know it very well), my test cd has 2 songs or so that have lots of deep/bassy notes, 2 that have a high end like a flute or similar instrument, 4 that do female vocals (2 for high notes and 2 for low, I like female voices for auditioning because IMO it is easier to detect "harshness" or too "laid back"). Then the remaining songs will vary, but the cd should cover your personal musical tastes. Whatever you know it very well. Also you will want to listen at higher volumes as it will also make it easier to hear the differences between the speakers. It doesn't have to be blow your ear drums out loud, but I like to get it between -10 and -15 db usually (once I have it narrowed down to a few I will get closer to under -10 db and listen to a track I know very well, usually Within Temptation's "Angels", and have them switch between two-three sets). Finally make sure to switch speakers while the song is playing because you won't be able to tell differences between them if you walk between rooms or have to wait to switch between them. The store I went to moved speakers between rooms so I could listen to them compared to another set.

Check out Elemental Designs as well for subs, but they don't have retail so you won't be able to audition them at retail. You could check out their forums and see if anybody in your area has an eD setup and would let ya listen.

HD-DVD format has died. If you have HD-DVD might as well keep it, but it is a now dead format so no new movies/products will be released for it. Just stick with Blu-ray and SD-DVD's

You could switch between two sets of speakers, but I don't know why you would want to. The more economical option is just get a receiver that you can switch between to 2.1 if you want to just audition music. Most receivers will let you do this (from the ones I have looked at anyways). As a side note a lot of home theater stores have a room that is setup to switch between speakers. Its possible to do, but I don't see why you would need to in a home environment.

Doing separates instead of a receiver means you have your amp and preamp separate. A receiver has both the preamp and amp in one unit. For the best sound quality (SQ) separates are the way to go, but receivers are very good as well (especially in this price range). The Denon 4308 or 5308 would do fine (they are both receivers). I do not know much about separates however, so I won't say much about them (somebody else want to jump in on separates? Yoyo?)

Look at Focal, and Paradigm. Focal has some amazing speakers (they just disappear when setup properly), as well as Paradigm (they have a bit of a "brighter" feel to them). http://www.paradigm.com/ and http://www.focal.tm.fr/

edit: fixed paradigm link

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

DisgruntledVirus went over auditioning tips already but I have a section on that in my sticky thread as well with similar advice.

Was that question about switching for the pupose of demo-ing speakers in your own home, or was that question about a permanent feature you want for your system?

Very important when comparing speakers is to level match them. Small differences in loudness can have profound impacts on what speaker sounds better to you. This can make switching between speakers rather difficult, but doing comparisons between speakers with very rapid switching between them is going to be the most useful way to demo them and get reliable results for your thoughts on them.

HDMI is so important to audio because that's hot the new audio formats are being sent. Unless you buy a Blu-Ray player that has multichannel analog output, you won't be able to get those formats without audio over HDMI. With a system like this, you're definitely going to want this feature. Although you can use multichannel analog output, this connection on most receivers / pre-pros is going to bypass audio processing in the unit. This could be a very bad thing if it bypasses all those fancy calibration features and bass management options that are selling points on the expensive receivers / pre-pros.

I think the separates question was already covered quite well.

Some benefits are
- You can get a really nice amplifier and keep using it for years since amplifier technology is pretty set now. To get new features, you just need to upgrade your pre-pro rather than junk the whole unit.
- Physically separating the amplifier circuitry away from the signal processing portion of your electronics can result in lower interference and cleaner signals.
- They're generally geared towards higher end markets and may have higher quality components.

Some drawbacks are
- Pre-pros tend to be a bit behind in features compared to receivers. Receivers are a much more widespread and rapidly moving market with new models coming out each year. In comparison, pre-pros move to technology slower and thus they generally are not going to have the latest features that receivers have. (Some notable exceptions are the Onkyo Pro 885 and Integra 9.8 that were developed alongside the big Onkyo/Integra receiver lines and have virtually every new feature you'd be looking at for this budget... the heavy hitting internet direct brands aren't caught up yet but if you have until the end of the year there will be several new and excellent choices for you)
- Pre-pros tend to be expensive so you don't have a ton of options at realistic budget levels if you're looking for the latest features for a HT oriented setup.


I think for the size of the room you're looking at, an apparent emphasis on HT rather than music, running reasonably easy to drive speakers (I assume most of the options you're looking at aren't going to have exotic amp requirements), and that you'll be crossing over to a subwoofer most if not all the time means....
That you'd be happy with either a mid to high end receiver
Or
receiver + amp
Or
pre-pro + amp

A lot of people are doing receiver + amp now rather than pre-pro + amp because receivers tend to have a lot of features right now that aren't found on affordable pre-pro units.

I have a bunch of fairly solid suggestions for speakers and subs in my sticky thread as well if you want to check that out.

For your setup, you should think about making a masking system. I really like the results I've gotten from mine.
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=y&keyword1=diy+screen

You can go really crazy on screens. My boss at work just spent about $6000 on an acoustically transparent screen.

 

[Muadib]

You can go really crazy on screens. My boss at work just spent about $6000 on an acoustically transparent screen.

Holy crap! What's the rest of his system?