home entertainment system

[kgraeme]

Sudaheer, you keep switching gauge. Yes gauge plays a factor in resistance. But with the same gauge wire, the differences are non-existant. There have been numerous double-blind, scientific studies which have shown that even experienced listeners can't hear the difference between 16ga radio shack wire and some overly expensive brand of 16 ga wire. I'm sure you won't believe me by my just telling you that, but it's the truth.

I have no qualms with you spending hundreds of dollars on designer wire. If it makes you feel better to spend that much, then so be it. Just please don't tell someone on an extreme budget that they have to spend more than $.15/foot on speaker wire when the scientific, double-blind studies don't support it.

 

[Workin']

<< And there is a BIG difference between the two >>

You keep saying that but provide nothing to back up your claim. I and several others would be VERY interested to have you explain some of these special physical or electrical or metaphysical or magical properties of "decent" wires to us. It is time for you to put up or shut up. Either state some concrete facts or admit you are making it up. And stomping your feet while repeating "it is, it is, it is" is NOT a concrete fact. And calling me names doesn't prove anything, either.

Now's the time for you to dazzle us with your brilliance! Or amaze us with your ignorance. Either will be just fine. Step up to the plate! I dare you to make a post explaining anything to support your claim, especially with out calling anyone names. If you can't do that then we can draw our own conclusions about you.

 

[Zebo]

fluxquantum

Your going to be hard pressed to get an "audiofile" movie setup for less than $3000. For speakers you'll need a Sub and five speakers. You also need at least an integrated dts/DD amplifier with decent power output. With that said you can still get a "nice" beginers setup (much better than any TV) for around $400 from costco. So don't let these guys scare you off.

Check out Costco. They have an integrated solution from JVC with 5.1 and an integrated dts/dd amp for right around $400. It will be a good starter kit. They also have a Sony solution with a DVD, integrated DD amp, and 5.1 for around $500. The main problem you will notice between the $3000+ setups VS the buget setup is at higher volumes and lack of accurate tones esp. bass. But hey we all had to start somewhere and $400 is way more than my first boombox cost. Plus Costco has the best no hassle return policy if you don't like it.

Workin'- kickin' ass and takin' names I see

 

[fatbaby]

Then there is no difference between a gold plated stereo miniplug and any other? iono, i'm a n00b...

And computer speakers are inadequate for tvs right? So that would take out logitech z560s, altec lansing 890s, and kilpsh 5.1s?

~fat

 

[Renob]

Didn't most of that equipment come with the appropriate cables? There isn't anything magical about wires. THERE HAS NOT BEEN EVEN ONE SCIENTIFICALLY VALID TEST that shows a difference between "regular" cables and ANY kind of "designer" or "premium" cables. NOT ONE SHRED OF PROOF. It's all marketing hype, voodoo, and junk science. But it's a free country and if you think that they sound better then I guess that's fine with me. People have all sorts of delusions and believe all sorts of weird things. Just because something sounds plausible doesn't mean that it is true



The only proof I needed was in my eyes and ears, Thats why I too spent around $ 600 for designer/premium cables. you should have seen the picture i got when using the cables that came with my DVD player compared to my premium cable, it was night and day.


BTW fluxquantum my sister has that kenwood HT in a box system and for the money its sounds not bad.

 

[Raincity]

<< The only proof I needed was in my eyes and ears, Thats why I too spent around $ 600 for designer/premium cables. you should have seen the picture i got when using the cables that came with my DVD player compared to my premium cable, it was night and day. >>

Thats not enough proof for somebody like Workin who needs the proof from some internet source. Take a peep behind every major recording studio in the world DSP racks and you will see handmade cables made from Belkin cable and gold plated connectors. Now how do we acount for the postings in newsgroups and BBS for the last fifteen years about strange video anomolies caused by the cheap packed in cables with their AV gear they have just purchased. How about the folks who had RFI problems that went away when they switched to properly shielded cables. Im not one to recomend in buying Kimber speaker cable at 6$ a feet when the .10 cents a foot cable is as good but those cheap generic AV cables just hinder performance when RFI and electrical interference is a problem.

Rain

 

[Thegonagle]

I'd get the Kenwood HTB-503 or HTB-504 and some nice, thick electrical cord at home depot to serve as speaker wire.

I've had my eye on the Kenwood models for awhile, they get great reviews over at Audioreview.com. As for the speaker wire, well I've been using lamp cord as speaker wire years before I even heard of Monster cable. I laughed in the store the first time I saw it and said, "WTF? The electrons don't care what they go through, as long as it's a thick enough conductor."

 

[Zebo]

.[/i] >>

Thats not enough proof for somebody like Workin who needs the proof from some internet source. Take a peep behind every major recording studio in the world DSP racks and you will see handmade cables made from Belkin cable and gold plated connectors. Now how do we acount for the postings in newsgroups and BBS for the last fifteen years about strange video anomolies caused by the cheap packed in cables with their AV gear they have just purchased. How about the folks who had RFI problems that went away when they switched to properly shielded cables. Im not one to recomend in buying Kimber speaker cable at 6$ a feet when the .10 cents a foot cable is as good but those cheap generic AV cables just hinder performance when RFI and electrical interference is a problem.
[/i] >>



No, All Workin' asks for is evidence which conforms to the Scientific Method which is considered the greatest invention of the 20th century by most scientists and engineers.

Pay particular attention to the sections on Double Blind, Peer Review, and Repeatablity.

 

[LeStEr]

You all are saying that you need to spend 1000$+ to get anything that will sound remotly descent. Im sure he could find a home theater in a box for $400 that would provide a performance that wouldnt be non satisfactory.

 

[Sepen]

<<

<< One word: BOSE >>



I think you meant two words: avoid BOSE >>



Hehehe....

 

[Pennstate]

If you want to setup a good HT cheap, get 2 pairs of these Aura Sound shielded speakers.

http://www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage.asp?AuctionId=6424204
These have expensive ribbon tweeters that makes listening of classical music an out of life exprerience. They are about ~$110 a pair SHIPPED.

And also get the LSC537M to match them. They get be had from ubid for ~$60 shipped.
http://www.ubid.com/actn/opn/getpage.asp?AuctionId=6429210



These speakers are high quality 6 ohm speakers with gold plated binding post terminals. The towers have spiked feet, which is something you usually find in high end speakers.

For ~$250, you can get 4 towers and one center. Spend the other $150 on a Onkyo, kenwood, or JVC receiver.

the review of these speakers are at www.audioreview.com. Go to main speakers, under "aura line source"

 

[Workin']

You cable junkies don't even read a word I wrote. I don't need proof from "some internet site" - it can be from anywhere, except some person saying "all I know is what I heard" during an uncontrolled, random test. That's not proof, that's someone wanting to believe they didn't really just flush all that money down the toilet.

I (and others) have posted links to or excerpts from scientifically valid tests that disprove the fancy cable theorem. The cable fairies haven't posted anything. As I said before, PUT UP OR SHUT UP. You would think that such an important discovery would be well-documented. Hell, you could even try explaining the electrical theory that proves your point, if there is any theory you think actually proves it. Go ahead, spell it out for us. I'm open-minded to FACTS. (Don't forget, your opinion IS NOT a fact!)

Show me something, ANYTHING, from a reputable source, ANYWHERE, that under controlled, scientifically valid conditions, the cables can improve the sound ONE IOTA, and I will be a believer, too.

Also, Raincity, please post a list of the major recording studios throughout the world that you have had the pleasure of touring. Prove you're not a big BS'er. Every commercial application I've ever seen uses balanced connections in their racks, not RCA patch cords.

<< Now how do we acount for the postings in newsgroups and BBS for the last fifteen years <<attributing magic to wires, etc.>> >>

And how do we account for 50 years worth of stories about alien abductions? Same factual basis. Just because a lot of people believe something DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE!!!

<< The electrons don't care what they go through, as long as it's a thick enough conductor. >>

You heretic!

 

[Thegonagle]

<< You heretic! >>


Thank you, Workin'!

 

[kami]

Workin, go post your thoughts and theories here.
You are right to an extent but you are taking it way too far. I think Monster Cables are a rip off for the most part, but some of the other high quality cables are definitely worth the money over really cheap stuff.

For speaker wire, NOT interconnects...it basically comes down to something like this:

spend $0.50 per foot for wire that scores 9.7
spend $1 per foot for wire that scores 9.8
spend $10 per foot for wire that scores 9.9
spend $100 per foot for wire that scores 10

differences are minimal, but they are there. the difference between cheapy and good quality interconnects (both video and audio) is much larger IMO. I am also a big fan of Acoustic Research stuff. Sound/look just as good as any monster cable but for a lot cheaper.

 

[Workin']

<< Workin, go post your thoughts and theories here. >>

They are not theories. They are FACTS. Again, more chatter and no substance from someone without a clue. I can post over at hometheaterforum and get the same crap nonsense as you're giving. No one can prove me wrong because I am right!

You wire wierdos make claims with nothing to back them up - nothing at all! The best that has been done so far is to call me some names. How about some proof, just ONE test, ONE study, something, anything, other than "they do so make a difference!"

Come on, if I am so wrong, surely someone, somewhere has at least the smallest tidbit of factual information that might prove it! Please, redeem poor fluxquantum's hijacked thread! Or admit you live in a fantasy world or are brain-damaged.

 

[kami]

Hmm, I think I'm gonna leave it alone so you can retain a little self-worth. I did not attack you once, I was trying to make civilized conversation & bring up some points. But you take this so personally for some reason that you have to resort to attacks and name calling.

Here's a hint: get a life.

 

[ImTyping]

<< by the way, the tv was a gift. >>



Ask the person to "give" you a stereo to go with it.

Denon Avr2802, Paradigm Monitor 3's and cc-170 for the fronts, Paradigm 8 inch sub, and Infinity bookshelf speakers for the back. Total cost: $1250.

I cannot see how you can spend less with an HDTV setup...and have the sound come close to matching the picture.

 

[d1abolic]

Workin, why not test that yourself at your local home theater store? I'm sure they sell Monster cables. Go down there with a pair of the cheapest coax Radio Shack sells and ask to hear one of their systems with Monster and then with the RS wires. Pick a good system though, not necessarily a $20,000 one, but something that costs at least $1000-1500 (just the speakers) and that has a rating of 4.5/5 or higher at audioreview.com. Let us know what you hear.

 

[Workin']

<< Here's a hint: get a life. >>

I'm sorry if I insulted you, kami, I did not mean to - the exasperated remarks are a reflection of my frustration that the wire believers will not even take the time to make a valid case for their point - they just insult me, like you just did. BTW, usually when someone makes a comment like "get a life" that means they are too dumb or too lazy to actually want to learn anything. It's so much easier to "shoot the messenger" and believe whatever you are spoon-fed. And this is just a tiny part of my life, which I happen to be very interested in. Think about it - if everyone took the "get a life" approach to everything, we'd all still be living in caves and eating bugs.

<< Workin, why not test that yourself at your local home theater store? .... Let us know what you hear. >>

I don't have to. I DO have a stereo system, believe it or not! My speakers cost more anything they sell at Best Buy (which really proves nothing because there are excellent speakers at almost any price point). And I (unlike you) have actually been employed in the high-end audio business. I've had pretty much unlimited access to whatever equipment you could think of - which I could, and did, bring home whenever I wanted.

Besides that, if you had read any of the earlier posts about valid testing techniques, you would have learned that the kind of test you propose is meaningless. As are whatever conclusions I would draw by testing something at home. Either you are not listening to what I am saying or you just don't get it. If you want to have a big-boy debate you have to use big-boy tools. NO uncontrolled test can isolate ONLY the effect of wires (or any other component)! Much testing has proven that volume level differences of only 0.1-0.3db can skew the results of a test - and that's FAR below a level difference that you can consciously discern, and even farther below what you can achieve in a showroom or your living room. And there are several other psycho-acoustic factors that need to be eliminated to obtain valid test results. This is fact, not subject to debate at all. If your test is not valid then your results aren't either.

Now you can say listen for yourself, etc., which I have, but that doesn't PROVE anything anyway.

I'll say it again - If wires make a difference, WHY OH WHY is there no published evidence of this "fact" by ANY research or testing organization. WHY does all the published evidence show just the opposite?

Anyone? Anyone? Anyone? Now's your chance! Smack me down with some facts!

 

[kami]

<< I'm sorry if I insulted you, kami, I did not mean to - the exasperated remarks are a reflection of my frustration that the wire believers will not even take the time to make a valid case for their point - they just insult me, like you just did. BTW, usually when someone makes a comment like "get a life" that means they are too dumb or too lazy to actually want to learn anything. It's so much easier to "shoot the messenger" and believe whatever you are spoon-fed. And this is just a tiny part of my life, which I happen to be very interested in. Think about it - if everyone took the "get a life" approach to everything, we'd all still be living in caves and eating bugs. >>


I did not insult you the first time around...you are the one who came around and started with the insults. I am not going to even bother trying to explain something to someone who has already made up their mind (and could never have it changed no matter what was put in front of him).
You are not completely right with what you are saying, but I have no desire to take it any further. And BTW, what proof have you had except some link on a site I'd never trust? Here you could find hundreds of testimonies from consumers who think their new cables make a difference. Then again, they, along with the dozens of audio magazines and websites, etc. are all delusional and you are the only right one. Right? This is how you see things so why bother?

BTW, it's just wires. I hope you don't take every minute detail in life this personally and seriously to the point where you need to result to insults when someone else presents their opinion. This is where the "get a life" comment stemmed from. And IMO, you do need to get one.

good day sir

 

[ratkil]

sorry you asked yet fluxquantum? Best of luck in your search, I don't know what your skill level is, but building your own speakers does seem like a fun cool thing to do with great results as far as cost -> performance ratio, you may want to look into it.

 

[Viperoni]

There is a very tiny, but measureable difference amoung cables, aside from the lessened resistance from thicker cables.

Inductance and capacitance.

-When the 2 conductors (+ and -) are closer together, you get a tiny bit more inductance....obviously rolling off the highs ever so slightly (I'd be surprised if it'd be more than 0.2db, seriously)

-When they are farther apart, you get a tiny bit more capacitance....this would roll off the lows, however some amps react VERY badly to the added capacitance, and would either not play, or would go to a certain level and then engage their protection circuits.


I just go for the thickest cable for the money; I have 12g stuff running to my speakers now, but it's getting a bit oxidized....I sanded down the wire before installing my banana's though, so it's fine.

The only cable that *could* make a difference would be the low level stuff like video or audio signals...not even digital coax signals much.
For those low level signals, I just go with as much shielding as possible (hence my subwoofer cable using mic cable that has a 92% braid surrounding the ground/signal conductors. Not too many cables made like that).

I do have, however, a monster video 2 svideo cable running from my DVD player straight into my TV, and there was a visible increase from the $2 in-the-box cable.....probably from the increase in shielding that the Monster has.

 

[Viperoni]

<< Your going to be hard pressed to get an "audiofile" movie setup for less than $3000. For speakers you'll need a Sub and five speakers. You also need at least an integrated dts/DD amplifier with decent power output. With that said you can still get a "nice" beginers setup (much better than any TV) for around $400 from costco. So don't let these guys scare you off. >>



$3k is very easy to get an audiophile setup!

Vance Dickason HT kit (with prefinished cabinets)
Vance Dickason HT sub (again, prefinished cab)

That leaves you $500 to grab an Outlaw Audio 1050 reciever.....

After shipping and everything you should still be under $2k, which leaves room for a nice DVD player, maybe a power center (that filters the power your equipment recieves) and the rest can go towards a better TV or whatever else you want.

 

[Workin']

kami, I apologized to you and explained my frustration - go back and see the repeated pleas for information over the last 4 pages of threads. And if you can't trust the ABX website, then you are seriously uninformed. Just about every entity that conducts testing of audio equipment uses the ABX comparator for double-blind testing. And double-blind testing is the ONLY way to conduct a valid comparison of two components, versus conducting a review where subjective opinions are certainly acceptable.

<< dozens of audio magazines and websites, etc. >>

Point to ONE - I'll even go to the library if it's in print instead of the internet - that isn't just an opinion - I will happily change my mind, and tell everyone about it, if you can show me ONE controlled, repeatable test that shows there is a difference. JUST ONE. It should be easy if there are dozens. Consumer testimonials mean nothing - I can likely give you a list of testimonials supporting any outlandish claim you care to make. Haven't you ever heard of someone who thinks putting foil on their head is a good idea?

All I care about is an unbiased, scientifically valid test. Please show me one that supports your claims, and I will never say another word about it.

<< BTW, it's just wires. I hope you don't take every minute detail in life this personally and seriously to the point where you need to result to insults when someone else presents their opinion. This is where the "get a life" comment stemmed from. And IMO, you do need to get one. >>

I take a lot of things seriously, I especially hate to see ignorance that costs people money. And if you think a little discussion like this is too much effort you must be really lazy. By your logic why would you even get up in the morning? Nothing is worth caring about, and close is good enough. Why would someone with your attitude even have a stereo, let alone worry about the wires in any way, shape, or form? I'd be surprised if you even had a boombox. With that attitude, good luck in your preparation for a lifetime career in the housekeeping and janitorial industry.

Some people must be very dense - just post ONE source, stop telling me how much your system improved, or admit that I might just be right. I'll change my mind, given proof. But all the proof I've ever seen supports my claims. Help make a difference, if you think you are so smart.

 

[kami]

<< Point to ONE - I'll even go to the library if it's in print instead of the internet - that isn't just an opinion - I will happily change my mind, and tell everyone about it, if you can show me ONE controlled, repeatable test that shows there is a difference. JUST ONE. It should be easy if there are dozens. Consumer testimonials mean nothing - I can likely give you a list of testimonials supporting any outlandish claim you care to make. Haven't you ever heard of someone who thinks putting foil on their head is a good idea?
>>


I mean just general stereo/home theater magazines...I have seen many cable reviews in them before where they recommend them because they sound better than other brands, etc. - point being not all cables are equal. Also you seemed to skip over my link to audioreviews where there's hundreds of consumer reviews.



<< take a lot of things seriously, I especially hate to see ignorance that costs people money. And if you think a little discussion like this is too much effort you must be really lazy. By your logic why would you even get up in the morning? Nothing is worth caring about, and close is good enough. Why would someone with your attitude even have a stereo, let alone worry about the wires in any way, shape, or form? I'd be surprised if you even had a boombox. With that attitude, good luck in your preparation for a lifetime career in the housekeeping and janitorial industry. >>


lazy? no i'd just rather spend my time on other subjects

how does this relate to me getting up in the morning? how does "my logic" about audio and video cables relate to getting up in the morning and facing life? that's an overblown comparison.

i have more than a boombox, my home theater setup is paradigm speakers all around, yamaha receiver, panasonic dvd player, acoustic research interconnects, and 12 gauge speaker wire that i got for dirt cheap at home depot. my whole setup is worth ~$2.5k. it's decent but nothing to write home about.

i'll probably end up in something more than janitorial work considering i'm in college right now. no it's not janitorial college either haha

the only reason i keep participating here is because it's mildly amusing to watch what you post...but i'm growing bored of this nonsense and think i'll quietly back out of this thread.