Holy Chit -Thimerosal is this for real?!?!?!

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Helenihi
Feel free to actually post some data at some point.

I'm not the one claming it categorically isn't harmful - you are (and have posted nothing that supports that categorical declaration). And as I've already said, there aren't any proven connections to autism yet, but there also aren't any that have proven it *isn't* connected (but there are statistical connections to harm, in the studies already mentioned).

What's your connection? You work for a vaccince company or drug company? Are you just concerned with the profits of vaccine companies? Or do you think every other western country that has banned Thimerasol are a bunch of fools (along with a very large portion of the scientific community)?

You are the asshat coming in here insulting EatSpam, teling him he's "putting his kids life in danger". Why don't you prove that first post? Bet you a weeks pay you can't.

 

[Helenihi]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Helenihi
Feel free to actually post some data at some point.

I'm not the one claming it categorically isn't harmful - you are (and have posted nothing that supports that categorical declaration). And as I've already said, there aren't any proven connections to autism yet, but there also aren't any that have proven it *isn't* connected (but there are statistical connections to harm, in the studies already mentioned).

What's your connection? You work for a vaccince company or drug company? Are you just concerned with the profits of vaccine companies? Or do you think every other western country that has banned Thimerasol are a bunch of fools (along with a very large portion of the scientific community)?

Do you understand how science works?

You are the one asserting something, not me. Nothing can be proven safe, it can only be proven unsafe. So go ahead and prove it.

And if you could read, which you have shown you can't, you would see that I quoted the FDA several times saying there is no link.

You can't prove they're not connected you moron. You can't prove the lack of a relationship. Anyone who's taken an introductory logic or statistic course shoud know that, but I guess you never got past basic English.


Ah, the evil conspiracy tactic. Yes thats it. You're so righteous that the only way anyone could be opposed to you is if they personally stand to benefit from it in some nefarious way. How good that must make you feel, fighting the evil corporate conspirators who want to murder all the innocent babies. It must be a nice fantasy.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Helenihi

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: jakedeez
He was just on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart talking about this toxin thimerosal and its link to Autism, have you guys heard anything about this, is it for real?

Linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thimerosal

Fortunately, thimerosal has been removed from most childhood vaccines...still, we're waiting until the last moment to vaccinate our son. No point in pumping him full of stuff too early.

Congragulations, you're putting your sons life in danger by making him go several years without any innoculations instead of getting him his vaccines so he can be perfectly safe.

Glad we have these scaremongerers and ambulance chasers running around getting pepole to scared to innoculate their kids.

Ok wait. Before you insult. Eatspam, how old is your child?

11 months.

 

[Zontor]

Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to either accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal exposure from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and speech or language delay.

Cutting down on the huge quotes - hope you don't mind....

The key words here are accept or reject and:

At present, all routinely recommended vaccines for U.S. infants are available only as thimerosal-free formulations or contain only trace amounts of thimerosal (<1 than micrograms mercury per dose), with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine.

For whatever reason, efforts are being taken to reduce / remove the perservative.

I tend to think the issue with thimerisol could be (my wife disagrees) that thimerosal may be OK for most individuals - however some children cannot remove or excrete the product effectively - hence this *may* be a *part* of the issue...

The truth is, there usually isnt an answer other than that humans are fragile and sometimes bad stuff happens.

Perhaps...but I'm not willing to just lie back and "think of England"....medical advances occur daily by people pushing the envelope.

___________
___________

The top 3 theories of the causes of autism (depending who you ask) are:

1] Thimerisol and/or heavy metals (inability to remove).
2] Viral and/or immune deficiency and/or allergy and/or yeast infection.
3] Genetic.

My personal views lean toward #2 and we are in several top university studies to examine all three aspects. Yes, my wife still treats my son in "alternative ways" with some things working a bit and some not working at all.

The single most effecive thing, however, has been to get my son in an autism preschool and help him get some training.

I'm simply not willing to stand by and watch this happen to my kid.....I will objectively look at all studies.

Thanks for the open and fair conversation. Nice to not have it get all emotionally out of control....I cannot have this type of conversation with many people....

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Helenihi

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: jakedeez
He was just on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart talking about this toxin thimerosal and its link to Autism, have you guys heard anything about this, is it for real?

Linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thimerosal

Fortunately, thimerosal has been removed from most childhood vaccines...still, we're waiting until the last moment to vaccinate our son. No point in pumping him full of stuff too early.

Congragulations, you're putting your sons life in danger by making him go several years without any innoculations instead of getting him his vaccines so he can be perfectly safe.

Glad we have these scaremongerers and ambulance chasers running around getting pepole to scared to innoculate their kids.

Somehow I don't think he's at much risk...he's not in daycare, ever and he's breastfed. Higher immunity plus no exposure = healthy baby.

 

[Helenihi]

I think its perfectly reasonable to look for alternative answers and to try and do the best for your kid.

Looking at the science, my decision would be to avoid the known and proven harm by risking the unknown and unproven one. Lack of an acceptance, is to me, a rejection. I'm not discounting the possibility, but without it being proven I'm not going to risk other harm to avoid it.

If they can remove the chemical without significantly raising costs or diluting effectiveness it makes sense for them to do so, and I'm all for that. I'm not saying its impossible for it to be harmful, and if they want to make the question moot by getting it out, thats fine, as long as they're not putting people at risk by doing it. I dont like seeing people advocating avoiding important vaccinations because of it, because it'll be much more tragic to have kids needlessly die of measles than to have them get autism.

I only get annoyed when people start talking about medicine being "unnatural" and accusing people of being parts of conspiracy as if there's no legitimate debate on the subject.

 

[teddyv]

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmmm...care to guess as to Eli Lilly's political contributions?

I don't need to guess, it's right Here (2006 cycle so far the split is 40% Dem, 60% GOP.) Here are the top recipients for this cycle, the top-10 are a pretty good D/R mix.

Sorry it's not Salon or Newsmax - sometimes plain, non-partisan, untwisted numbers are a bit more eye-opening.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Helenihi

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Helenihi
Feel free to actually post some data at some point.

I'm not the one claming it categorically isn't harmful - you are (and have posted nothing that supports that categorical declaration). And as I've already said, there aren't any proven connections to autism yet, but there also aren't any that have proven it *isn't* connected (but there are statistical connections to harm, in the studies already mentioned).

What's your connection? You work for a vaccince company or drug company? Are you just concerned with the profits of vaccine companies? Or do you think every other western country that has banned Thimerasol are a bunch of fools (along with a very large portion of the scientific community)?

Do you understand how science works?

You are the one asserting something, not me. Nothing can be proven safe, it can only be proven unsafe. So go ahead and prove it.

And if you could read, which you have shown you can't, you would see that I quoted the FDA several times saying there is no link.

You can't prove they're not connected you moron. You can't prove the lack of a relationship. Anyone who's taken an introductory logic or statistic course shoud know that, but I guess you never got past basic English.


Ah, the evil conspiracy tactic. Yes thats it. You're so righteous that the only way anyone could be opposed to you is if they personally stand to benefit from it in some nefarious way. How good that must make you feel, fighting the evil corporate conspirators who want to murder all the innocent babies. It must be a nice fantasy.

Funny - you want to lecture me on science. Yet here's what we've got from you so far:

1) EatSpam is endangering his child (yet you know nothing about it)
2) "There has never been any study showing it to be dangerous. " I've refuted already.
3) "since thimerosal has NEVER BEEN SHOWN TO BE UNSAFE. " yes it has, as I've shown
4) Made unproven assertions about polio. Go and study Polio and explain why the numbers were going down BEFORE vaccine's were invented
5) state "ZERO EVIDENCE OF A RELATION", yet there has been evidence (while not conclusive) presented
6) Make the ridiculous comparison of a "120LB child" to attempt to discredit government findings on mercury, when government reccomends innocculations at very young ages
7) Claimed there are different kinds of mercury, an element
8) Claimed "ITS NOT HARMFUL" (thimerosal)
9) Claimed "microscopic amounts of almost anything are not harmful"
10) Claimed peak levels of mercury exposure don't matter
11) Claimed "Low concentrations of mercury are harmless, and have been shown to be harmless."
12) Claimed "the FDA several times saying there is no link." when in fact they've said there is no conclusive evidence.

But then to top off all these claims, you say "Nothing can be proven safe". So which of your claims are wrong? Oh wait, then you say "I'm not saying its impossible for it to be harmful". So which is it? I've quoted you each time directly.

So Bill Nye the Science Guy - please go ahead and show where I posted anything other than the presentation of evidence (you know, the whole scientific theory thing) that Thimerisal is harmful?

 

[morkinva]

By the way, vaccines for your child are not 'required' as you have been hypnotized to believe. Apparently every state has an exemption you can get based on religious, medical or philosophical concerns.

 

[morkinva]

Then again, why would you doubt this (no doubt) government produced piece of news that tells us mercury containing vaccines may help, not hurt your kids? :roll:

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: teddyv

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmmm...care to guess as to Eli Lilly's political contributions?

I don't need to guess, it's right Here (2006 cycle so far the split is 40% Dem, 60% GOP.) Here are the top recipients for this cycle, the top-10 are a pretty good D/R mix.

Sorry it's not Salon or Newsmax - sometimes plain, non-partisan, untwisted numbers are a bit more eye-opening.

Lieberman's barely a Democrat. He's another one of the pro-corporate, DLC-dandies. Also, that's still about $100,000 more to the GOP than to the Democrats.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: morkinva
By the way, vaccines for your child are not 'required' as you have been hypnotized to believe. Apparently every state has an exemption you can get based on religious, medical or philosophical concerns.

That may be true but MANY facilities (schools, daycares, etc) will EXCLUDE any nonvaccinated child. People that don't vaccinate their children are either ignorant or stupid. Now if you are talking about the anthrax vaccine or even smallpox . . . the former sux and the latter is unnecessary.

The OVERWELMING evidence is that thimerosal (as a vaccine preservative) is NOT implicated in causing autism. It certainly is not responsible for the dramatic rise over the past two decades. It is conceivable that some miniscule number of children may be particularly susceptible to mercury . . . BUT they are far more likely to have toxic exposure through the environment (food, air, water) than vaccinations . . . even before thimerosal was being phased out of routine vaccines. The same is true about other heavy metal exposures.

Another correction . . . it is true that mercury (Hg) is an element but the relative toxicity is primarily a function of the form (methyl, ethyl, etc). Naturally, the more lipophilic varieties linger in the lipid membranes . . . ie easily accumulating the the developing brain.

Kennedy seems like a nice guy but he's bozo on this one.

 

[morkinva]

Well at least someone is listening:

New York bans mercury in vaccines

27/06/2005 - In the US, the New York Senate last week passed that would prohibit the administration of any vaccine containing more than a trace amount of mercury to children under the age of three or pregnant women.

Thimerosal, a preservative used in vaccines that contains 50 per cent ethyl mercury, has been used in vaccines for years as a preservative to help prevent life-threatening bacterial contamination. However, vaccine manufacturing technology has advanced in recent years, and it is no longer necessary to add preservatives containing mercury to vaccines, according to the bill?s sponsor, Sen Dean Skelos.
"Childhood vaccinations have had a significant and measurable public health benefit," said Sen Skelos. "But with scientific uncertainty regarding the safety of the mercury-based preservative thimerosal to children, readily available alternatives and a consensus between the major federal health agencies that thimerosal use should be reduced or eliminated, we must err on the side of caution and end its use in New York State.

The bill has now been passed on to Governor George Pataki for signature.

Two other US states, California and Iowa, have already enacted legislation banning the use of more than a trace amount of thimerosal in vaccines. Similar legislation is pending in the states of Delaware, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Utah and Washington.

Vaccine manufacturers say that as of 2000, vaccines recommended for use in children and infants have all been available in versions that contain no (?thiomersal-free?) or only trace amounts (?thiomersal preservative-free?) of the compound, with the exception of some multidose vials intended for use in the developing world. This is because where several doses are taken from the same container, thiomersal offers better protection from contamination than other preservatives such as 2-phenoxy ethanol, according to the World Health Organisation.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: morkinva
By the way, vaccines for your child are not 'required' as you have been hypnotized to believe. Apparently every state has an exemption you can get based on religious, medical or philosophical concerns.

That may be true but MANY facilities (schools, daycares, etc) will EXCLUDE any nonvaccinated child. People that don't vaccinate their children are either ignorant or stupid. Now if you are talking about the anthrax vaccine or even smallpox . . . the former sux and the latter is unnecessary.

The OVERWELMING evidence is that thimerosal (as a vaccine preservative) is NOT implicated in causing autism. It certainly is not responsible for the dramatic rise over the past two decades. It is conceivable that some miniscule number of children may be particularly susceptible to mercury . . . BUT they are far more likely to have toxic exposure through the environment (food, air, water) than vaccinations . . . even before thimerosal was being phased out of routine vaccines. The same is true about other heavy metal exposures.

Another correction . . . it is true that mercury (Hg) is an element but the relative toxicity is primarily a function of the form (methyl, ethyl, etc). Naturally, the more lipophilic varieties linger in the lipid membranes . . . ie easily accumulating the the developing brain.

Kennedy seems like a nice guy but he's bozo on this one.

For full disclosure, how much do you earn annually from administering vaccines? What is your profit margin, and how long does it take to administer one?

Be truthful - I work in health insurance and see all the reimbursements...

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I'm in the 3rd year of a research fellowship in neurodevelopmental disorders. All of my kids have autism, Fragile X, or schizophrenia and they are participating in drug trials.

I haven't given a vaccination since medical school. Accordingly, I've never been paid to administer one. I endorse vaccines b/c they work. I take exception to a few:

1) first nasal flu vaccine: terribly expensive plus what are the odds we would run out of the much cheaper injectible . . . oops
2) anthrax: doesn't work very well, quite toxic, and why bother
3) smallpox: quite toxic (and communicable) . . . yes I'm talking about the vaccine . . . plus why bother
4) chicken pox: OK, this one is moronic but there's a catch. It makes no sense whatsoever to universally vaccinate children against a disease that's mild. The exceptions are children with eczema/asthma, adults/adolescents that haven't gotten chicken pox (the disease is more severe in adults), and anyone that lives in a place with widespread vaccination.

Now the economic argument for chicken pox vaccine is actually pretty strong (conceptually). If you factor in the parents (staying at home with your kid for a week), severely sick adults with chickenpox, shingles in later life . . . it's quite possible that it's cost effective to vaccinate. I don't know the numbers, so I cannot speak explicitly.

My kid is 10 months old. She is getting a standard battery plus Hepatitis A (when she's old enough). I haven't made up my mind about chicken pox. If she winds up in a residential prep school or something, she will get meningococcal as well.

All vaccines should be given strictly from a risk/benefit perspective. The current schedule of recommended vaccinations are quite judicious. But risks (and benefits) can vary by individual based on certain criteria . . . which do not include:
parents are nervous, what about this "thimerosal stuff", everybody else is vaccinated/why should we bother, yada yada yada

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Helenihi
There's never been a single credible study linking vaccines to autism.

And yeah, lets sue the makers of vaccines! That way they can go out of business and stop producing them, we'll surely be better off then! Even if there was a link between them, that still doesnt justify a lawsuit, and they should get government protection, otherwise we're not going to get necessary (but still possibly dangerous) vaccines produced.


For the last severla years before it was eradicated, the polio vaccine killed many more people than polio. No one seriously disputes the fact that we needed to continue administering the vaccine.

do you have any idea how big of a lawsuit would need to be filed to take down a company the size of the large parm. company? A lawsuit would have to be enourmous just to dent the bottom line, the industry is one of, if not the most profitable in the country.