Discussion Holmes and Potter and Maxwell, Oh My!

[pmv]

She's a product of a family/society/world that truly believe money can buy anything and those with it control those without.

Partly that, but seems as if she also had "daddy issues", given the way her father died. Seems like she then latched onto Epstein (another rich sociopath) as a substitute.

 

[fskimospy]

Is it wrong that I find myself feeling a teeny bit sorry for her?

Just that with the father she had, it's hard to imagine how she could have turned out better. I know that doesn't morally exonerate her, but stochastically-speaking, it seems almost like a deterministic process that children of monsters end up morally flawed themselves. It's one of the (multiple) problems I have with the idea of a morally-judgemental God - not everyone gets an equal opportunity to be 'good'.

I’m pretty sure she could have avoided facilitating a massive sexual exploitation ring if she put her mind to it.

 

[pmv]

I’m pretty sure she could have avoided facilitating a massive sexual exploitation ring if she put her mind to it.

Perhaps I'm just being soft. But in order to 'put your mind to it' you'd have to have had your mind constructed - by your formatitive experiences, and parenting - in such a way that you'd be able to be fully morally-aware of what you were doing. Again, I'm not disagreeing with the legal verdict or sentence. The human legal system has to do what it does for society to continue to function. I'm just less clear about making some sort of absoltue moral judgement.

Even when reading about, say, Saddam Hussain's sons, who were undeniably completely evil monsters, I get the confusing thought that I can't imagine how they could ever have turned out otherwise.

 

[cytg111]

Probably this case affects me partly because I have strong memories of the days when "Captain Bob" was a notable presence in UK culture, and of how ghastly he was. I once worked with someone who had briefly been one of his employees and had found him to be an appalling bully. Growing up with that guy as your beloved care-giver...shudder. Wouldn't choose that even for all the wealth that family had.

Going off on a tangent rather, but the human-run legal system is entitled to make judgements about such things, I'm not disagreeing with the legal verdict, but I have a big problem with the idea that "God", with all the privileges and advantages he has, is in any position to judge people for how they react to the circumstances _he_ puts them in in the first damn place!

In fact, I really wonder where God gets off, thinking he is entitled to make such judgements. He clearly has delusions of grandeur. Probably has NPD.

I’ve long ago concluded that the god thing is just a measure of control, and like not necessarily a bad thing for its time… If human kind is to dig it self out of a nuclear winter and start anew i am certain religion will play a significant historical role yet again.
I can walk someone through the logical steps of why it must be so, but for someone of faith, if you dont have anything to replace it with, they break down in some sort of no meaning to life depression, I’ve seen it happen more than once and thus when I get that vibe from someone Ill just never take it there, no reason to fuck up their day, week.
Ignorance is bliss. Really is for some. No judgement either.

By the way, what is one of the defining traits of a god?

God creates right?

What entity in the universe do you know that creates, orchestrates, manipulates?
Yea, that would be us.

 

[cytg111]

Even when reading about, say, Saddam Hussain's sons, who were undeniably completely evil monsters, I get the confusing thought that I can't imagine how they could ever have turned out otherwise.

100% Agree. Understanding this is the only way to actually changing the makeup that creates monsters. See yourself as that guard in that tower outside Auschwitz. As Ghandi. How do I get to all those places and feel them. How can I judge that which I dont understand.

 

[fskimospy]

Perhaps I'm just being soft. But in order to 'put your mind to it' you'd have to have had your mind constructed - by your formatitive experiences, and parenting - in such a way that you'd be able to be fully morally-aware of what you were doing. Again, I'm not disagreeing with the legal verdict or sentence. The human legal system has to do what it does for society to continue to function. I'm just less clear about making some sort of absoltue moral judgement.

Even when reading about, say, Saddam Hussain's sons, who were undeniably completely evil monsters, I get the confusing thought that I can't imagine how they could ever have turned out otherwise.

If that’s the case then isn’t the criminal justice system itself immoral? If they had no choice then how can we punish them for it? Alternatively, if these outcomes are inevitable should we precrime them, Minority Report style?

Of course I’m being a little ridiculous here but I believe people have agency. Yes, your upbringing affects you but if it’s determinative then all we are is a bunch of bio robots.

 

[pmv]

If that’s the case then isn’t the criminal justice system itself immoral? If they had no choice then how can we punish them for it? Alternatively, if these outcomes are inevitable should we precrime them, Minority Report style?

Of course I’m being a little ridiculous here but I believe people have agency. Yes, your upbringing affects you but if it’s determinative then all we are is a bunch of bio robots.

Well it could well be that I'm personally particularly predisposed to not see people as having agency. There are many reasons why that might be the case (mainly, my own formative experiences, that I'm not going into!). The justification for the criminal justice system (which, at lesat in the US, _is_ pretty immoral) would simply be a pragmatic one - that it's necessary for society to function.

In fact, sometimes I explicitly think one of the biggest problems with our culture is that we over-rate how much 'agency' people have, and how 'free' we really all are to choose our destinies. It seems as if that idea of unconstrained 'agency' is something that arose with a particular historical era, and (probably) with liberalism and capitalism. It's often used as a justification for hierarchies and inequality, for one thing.

 

[Greenman]

I thought deals were always made before the trial, not after?

 

[Sunburn74]

I thought deals were always made before the trial, not after?

I think you can make sentencing deals post trial as well.

If that’s the case then isn’t the criminal justice system itself immoral? If they had no choice then how can we punish them for it? Alternatively, if these outcomes are inevitable should we precrime them, Minority Report style?

Of course I’m being a little ridiculous here but I believe people have agency. Yes, your upbringing affects you but if it’s determinative then all we are is a bunch of bio robots.

Philosophers have been debating these issues for centuries. It's the central question of free will. Do we have it or don't we? If we do then we're responsible. If we dont, then we're not.

 

[interchange]

Remember folks, you can't trust the liberal media to publish the news you want to see!

 

[cytg111]

"If you give up the Clintons and none of us, ok, we will pardon you 2024 when we get the presidency back".

Thats totally fantasy on my part.

 

[eelw]

"If you give up the Clintons and none of us, ok, we will pardon you 2024 when we get the presidency back".

Thats totally fantasy on my part.

Yet the Repugicans congress critters would overlook this scenario and not choose to impeach for a 3rd time, this blatant abuse of power

 

[Meghan54]

Find me a nurse who went to prison for a negligent death who simply made an error instead of breaking process / overriding a safety protocol or some such. Mistakes are not negligence. Not doing something you are supposed to in order to prevent a mistake is negligence.

When A Nurse Is Prosecuted For A Fatal Medical Mistake, Does It Make Medicine Safer?

A nurse was charged with reckless homicide and abuse after mistakenly giving a patient a fatal dose of the wrong medicine. Patient safety experts say this may actually make hospitals less safe.

www.npr.org

Vanderbilt nurse arrested and criminally charged after fatal medication error

Nurse Radonda Vaught was arrested on February 4 and charged with reckless homicide and patient abuse following a medication error which led to the death of an elderly patient.

nurseslabs.com

 

[interchange]

When A Nurse Is Prosecuted For A Fatal Medical Mistake, Does It Make Medicine Safer?

A nurse was charged with reckless homicide and abuse after mistakenly giving a patient a fatal dose of the wrong medicine. Patient safety experts say this may actually make hospitals less safe.

www.npr.org

Vanderbilt nurse arrested and criminally charged after fatal medication error

Nurse Radonda Vaught was arrested on February 4 and charged with reckless homicide and patient abuse following a medication error which led to the death of an elderly patient.

nurseslabs.com

"The Nashville District Attorney's office told the Tennessean it made the decision to bring criminal charges against Vaught specifically because she administered the fatal medication after overriding the safety mechanism in the dispensing machine."

Thank you for making my point. I don't think that the nurse deserves a manslaughter conviction, but the point here is that the nurse overrode a safety mechanism intended to prevent this mistake as an act of volition.

 

[allisolm]

Holmes guilty on 4 of 11 charges, not guilty on 4 and no verdict on 3.

 

[Sunburn74]

"The Nashville District Attorney's office told the Tennessean it made the decision to bring criminal charges against Vaught specifically because she administered the fatal medication after overriding the safety mechanism in the dispensing machine."

Thank you for making my point. I don't think that the nurse deserves a manslaughter conviction, but the point here is that the nurse overrode a safety mechanism intended to prevent this mistake as an act of volition.

Yeah but it was still bullshit.
You have to understand health systems a bit. You get warnings for everything. You can walk around with a cup of coffee without getting a warning that says "hey you're walking around with a cup of coffee". There's actual literature on this. Its called alarm fatigue: meaning when you constantly get alarms and warnings they start to be meaningless. Basically nurses do override warnings all the time. Doctors too. Most things you override are meaningless alarms, warnings, and concerns. To think this particular case was something so out of the norm is really a gross misunderstanding of what its like to work in healthcare.

The RaDonda Vaught trial has ended. This timeline will help with the confusing case.

RaDonda Vaught, 36, an ex-Vanderbilt nurse, has been found guilty of criminally negligent homicide for a medical error that killed a patient.

www.tennessean.com

Read this story on the timeline (might need to turn off your adblocker)

"Overriding was something we did as a part of our practice every day,” Vaught said. “You couldn’t get a bag of fluids for a patient without using an override function.” Even the licensing group that took away the license was very sympathetic and most likely if she walks, she'll probably get re-licensed in another state I would bet if she wanted to go back to work. Or maybe she'll write a book and make a killing.

Anyway almost certainly she doesn't go to jail. No way you get 12 people to agree on that. Even the professional discipline people think is pretty questionable because nowadays the thought about medical error is less about blaming the person and more about blaming the systems that allowed the error to occur. Simply punishing the person may work for 1 year or a few years but eventually people will forget, new people will come in and it'll happen again.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Holmes guilty on 4 of 11 charges, not guilty on 4 and no verdict on 3.

Not exactly impressive.

 

[interchange]

Yeah but it was still bullshit.
You have to understand health systems a bit. You get warnings for everything. You can walk around with a cup of coffee without getting a warning that says "hey you're walking around with a cup of coffee". There's actual literature on this. Its called alarm fatigue: meaning when you constantly get alarms and warnings they start to be meaningless. Basically nurses do override warnings all the time. Doctors too. Most things you override are meaningless alarms, warnings, and concerns. To think this particular case was something so out of the norm is really a gross misunderstanding of what its like to work in healthcare.

The RaDonda Vaught trial has ended. This timeline will help with the confusing case.

RaDonda Vaught, 36, an ex-Vanderbilt nurse, has been found guilty of criminally negligent homicide for a medical error that killed a patient.

www.tennessean.com

Read this story on the timeline (might need to turn off your adblocker)

"Overriding was something we did as a part of our practice every day,” Vaught said. “You couldn’t get a bag of fluids for a patient without using an override function.” Even the licensing group that took away the license was very sympathetic and most likely if she walks, she'll probably get re-licensed in another state I would bet if she wanted to go back to work. Or maybe she'll write a book and make a killing.

Anyway almost certainly she doesn't go to jail. No way you get 12 people to agree on that. Even the professional discipline people think is pretty questionable because nowadays the thought about medical error is less about blaming the person and more about blaming the systems that allowed the error to occur. Simply punishing the person may work for 1 year or a few years but eventually people will forget, new people will come in and it'll happen again.

I'm a doctor. I understand health systems a bit. As I said she shouldn't face criminal charges. But it doesn't change the fact the case only supports the perspective that Potter's actions were not criminal.