Hmm... Stupid question?

[RS3RS]

This may be a stupid question, but I'll ask anyway *puts on flame suit*

Let's say that all of the properties of oxygen were the same as they are now, except that the boiling point of oxygen was raised so that at room temperature, it was a liquid. Now if I were to take this liquid oxygen, and inhale it, what exactly would happen?

Would I be able to breathe in this liquid oxygen and still carry it on to the rest of my body, or does the fact that it's a gas come in to play? Would the liquid oxygen just settle in my lungs and not be absorbed, or would it be like the case with the mouse submerged in fluorinert?

Just something I've been wondering

 

[sao123]

This has been used effectively in medical treatments especially in infants with underdeveloped lungs. They have filled their lungs with liquid o2 solution.

 

[gururu]

that is an interesting question. because we've adapted to absorb gaseous oxygen into solution in a highly regulated process, I can't help but think that pure liquid oxygen would be lethal. It would be too much and would probably absorb too fast for the body to regulate. If liquid oxygen were mixed with some some other liquid that wasn't taken up it might be feasible.

 

[Pulsar]

High O2 solutions can also be used in extreme deep-sea diving. I believe the movie the Abyss (or is it Leviathon) has a neat scene where first a rat, then a man, have to breathe using it.

 

[sao123]

Pure O2 is definately lethal...thats why when this has been done in medical practice it was 25% oxygen by volume in some sort of saline solution.

 

[Erehwon]

Originally posted by: LsDPulsar
High O2 solutions can also be used in extreme deep-sea diving. I believe the movie the Abyss (or is it Leviathon) has a neat scene where first a rat, then a man, have to breathe using it.

Yea the movie was the abyss, and they used a oxygen enhanced liquid to basicy fill the lungs up with. See the hard part I would think is you would not need to inhale or exhale anymore as it would be absorb... however inhaling and exhaling is a non cogntive action. Meaing you don't think about doing it. Wouldnt it be a pain in the arse to still be breathing and not need to!!

Check this out for futher reading:

http://www.scienceweb.org/movies/abyss.html

and give google a hit for: breathing liquid oxygen

 

[prometheusxls]

Pure 02 is really nasty stuff. It oxidizes (burns) most organic compunts on contact. It would have to be low concentrations.

 

[NewBlackDak]

If it were that way, we would not be the way that we are. Our lungs are designed to exchange gas. Our diaphragm is designed to pump the lungs like bellows. If we were designed to breathe a liquid our lungs would be more like gills.

They actually do use that liquid O2 saline solution, but the biggest drawback is not being able to remove all the liguid afterwards. Causes pneumonia.

 

[huillam]

My first post...hopefully I won't sound too stupid.

1. You could definitely get oxygen into your bloodstream. There would be a simple diffusion across the lung (alveolar) capillary membrane. You get a similar (but lesser) effect from the perfluorocarbon liquids that are being tested for liquid ventilation.

2. An added benefit would be that if you had pure liquid oxygen in your lungs, you likely would not need hemoglobin/red blood cells. You could be bled dry and have all your blood volume replaced with plasma/saline/isotonic fluid of choice.

3. 100% oxygen IS toxic, but it takes time. Our bodies are chock-full of antioxidants that work to reverse the paradoxical effects of critically necessary, but poisonous oxygen. No one knows for sure, but it is generally accepted that less than 4 hours of mechanical ventilation on 100% oxygen in critically ill patients is considered OK.

 

[Broadkipa]

Great link Erehwon, one of my fav movies of all time, nice bit of background info there.

 

[Triplex]

nice theoretical conversation. Pure O2 in liquid form would besides giving freezer burn would cause a bleaching action on organic tissue. It would oxidize the tissue very rapidly providing there was no freeze factor. Pure O2 as stated in gas form can be tolorated for a while. The reflex of breathing is driven by various factors. in COPD patients in is driven by a hypoxic drive. This is related to the CO2 in the system. So the act of having a reflexive breathing may or may not happen if the requirment for O2 is met. I humblely request if anyone could clarify or point out any misinformation that I may have presented.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

this reminds me of when my father said "if magnetism stopped working we'd all be screwed because all electrical production relies on it." If all oxygen turned into liquid even if we could effectively breath it there wouldn't be enough around and would be difficult to obtain (you'd need trees near you leaking the stuff)

 

[SnowyEnigma]

What about the stomach? Wouldn't the contents of the stomach mix with the solution and cause havoc? Eating would not be possible since food wouldn't be processed correctly by the acids and enzymes in the stomach.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

Remember, when we were in a liquid oxygen environment (the womb) we had no reason to breathe by inhalation and exhalation. That is after birth. The old swat the baby make him/her cry routine. However, we do have an umbilical cord providing us all the nutrients to live and grow. After birth the cord is cut and now nutrients must be absorbed another way. I.E. eating and drinking. It is kind of hard to eat and drink by mouth in a liquid oxygen environment I would imagine lol. I believe SnowyEnighma is right

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: michaelpatrick33
Remember, when we were in a liquid oxygen environment (the womb) we had no reason to breathe by inhalation and exhalation. That is after birth. The old swat the baby make him/her cry routine. However, we do have an umbilical cord providing us all the nutrients to live and grow. After birth the cord is cut and now nutrients must be absorbed another way. I.E. eating and drinking. It is kind of hard to eat and drink by mouth in a liquid oxygen environment I would imagine lol. I believe SnowyEnighma is right

This conversation got wayyyyyy off track from what the OP originally asked. (and, Triplex, the original question is under the hypothetical "what if oxygen boiled at room temperature", thus it wouldn't freeze anything.)

But, to continue along these tangents, fish apparently have no trouble eating while underwater. I doubt we'd have trouble as well.

 

[huillam]

I forgot one interesting hypothetical. As DrPizza mentioned, the premise is that oxygen is liquid at room temperature (not freezing anything).

If so, density of oxygen would be much higher than anything in the [gaseous] atmosphere. Supposing that humans still wouldn't be able to breathe underwater, we would be forced to crawl along the ground like vacuum cleaners

 

[leeland]

Originally posted by: huillam
My first post...hopefully I won't sound too stupid.

2. An added benefit would be that if you had pure liquid oxygen in your lungs, you likely would not need hemoglobin/red blood cells. You could be bled dry and have all your blood volume replaced with plasma/saline/isotonic fluid of choice.

3. 100% oxygen IS toxic, but it takes time. Our bodies are chock-full of antioxidants that work to reverse the paradoxical effects of critically necessary, but poisonous oxygen. No one knows for sure, but it is generally accepted that less than 4 hours of mechanical ventilation on 100% oxygen in critically ill patients is considered OK.

#2
Well hate to break it to you but you do need the hemoglobin to carry that Oxygen to the tissues don't ya ? And replacing your entire blood volume would probably make you go into idopathic DIC...

#3
100% O2 is toxic but in my personal work hx, I have had a ton of people on the vent maxed out for hours and days at a time...with little or no ill effects directly related to 100% O2...

In school I learned about it, the term is called Oxygen toxicity
Quote:

oxygen toxicity is caused by extended exposure, 16 or more hours, to moderate partial pressures, 0.5 bar or more, of oxygen and can lead to irreversible lung damage. This is a rare complication in diving, but may be a relevant cause of morbidity in intensive care

End Quote

 

[huillam]

Blood oxygen content = (1.34 * Hb * SaO2) + (0.003 * PaO2) where:
a. Hb = concentration of hemoglobin [g/dL]
b. SaO2 = saturation of hemoglobin [unitless, between 0 and 1.0]
c. PaO2 = partial pressure of oxygen

Assuming an [average] Hb of 15 and SaO2=0.98, the amount of oxygen in blood carried by hemoglobin is 19.7mL/100mL.

At sea level, a reasonable PaO2 in the lungs (which is different than in the atmosphere) is around 100 mmHg. Thus, 0.003 * 100 = 0.3mL/100mL.

Thus, normally, >98% of the oxygen in the bloodstream is carried by hemoglobin, but I think that if one breathed in 100% liquid oxygen, the resulting partial pressure in the blood would be much, much higher than 100 mmHg, resulting in a drastically reduced dependence on hemoglobin/red blood cells.

I'm not sure about the DIC [disseminated intravascular coagulation], but I've seen multiple Jehovah's Witness patients bleed to incredibly low hemoglobin levels with a large percentage of their circulating blood volume replaced by saline/crystalloid solutions (because most will not accept blood products) without seeing DIC.

I have also placed multiple patients on 100% oxygen on the ventilator for days at a time, but my experience differs from yours in the sense that:
a. those that required 100% oxygen for more than a day usually were so sick that they didn't make it
b. those that did make usually had other morbidities at discharge that probably masked any of the lung damage associated with oxygen toxicity.

Edit: my experience may also differ from yours in the sense that virtually all the patients I saw were due to trauma (as opposed to other medical conditions).

 

[leeland]

Originally posted by: huillam
Blood oxygen content = (1.34 * Hb * SaO2) + (0.003 * PaO2) where:
a. Hb = concentration of hemoglobin [g/dL]
b. SaO2 = saturation of hemoglobin [unitless, between 0 and 1.0]
c. PaO2 = partial pressure of oxygen

Assuming an [average] Hb of 15 and SaO2=0.98, the amount of oxygen in blood carried by hemoglobin is 19.7mL/100mL.

At sea level, a reasonable PaO2 in the lungs (which is different than in the atmosphere) is around 100 mmHg. Thus, 0.003 * 100 = 0.3mL/100mL.

Thus, normally, >98% of the oxygen in the bloodstream is carried by hemoglobin, but I think that if one breathed in 100% liquid oxygen, the resulting partial pressure in the blood would be much, much higher than 100 mmHg, resulting in a drastically reduced dependence on hemoglobin/red blood cells.

I'm not sure about the DIC [disseminated intravascular coagulation], but I've seen multiple Jehovah's Witness patients bleed to incredibly low hemoglobin levels with a large percentage of their circulating blood volume replaced by saline/crystalloid solutions (because most will not accept blood products) without seeing DIC.

I have also placed multiple patients on 100% oxygen on the ventilator for days at a time, but my experience differs from yours in the sense that:
a. those that required 100% oxygen for more than a day usually were so sick that they didn't make it
b. those that did make usually had other morbidities at discharge that probably masked any of the lung damage associated with oxygen toxicity.

Edit: my experience may also differ from yours in the sense that virtually all the patients I saw were due to trauma (as opposed to other medical conditions).

Very good I commend you on your post, I am not trying to split hairs with you on the subject...The way I read your post is that past 4 hours you are going to damage your lungs for ever...

I guess from my experience I have had many patients like you have spoke of...ones who rest their poor souls...are better off dead due to the mult. medical problems...

I on the other hand have seen mult patients recover without a hiccup after being on very high settings (i.e. 100% and 15 plus of PEEP)....for extended periods of time.

I don't mean to sound ignorant or nieve on the subject of DIC

I have seen patients that for what ever reason that have gotten large amounts of blood products...

here is a little exerp from a website...

DIC may be stimulated by many factors including infection in the blood by bacteria or fungus, severe tissue injury as in burns and head injury, cancer, reactions to blood transfusions, and obstetrical complications such as retained placenta after delivery.

Edit:
Also what profession do you work in ? I am going to guess ER or ICU Nurse or on that level...

 

[huillam]

I'm a surgery resident who is returning to the hospital (July 1) to finish the last two years of training (I've spent the last two years in the lab). Watch out, world! Yet another reason not to be sick in July

As far as DIC is concerned, it is considered to be a hyperinflammatory state (most inflammatory stimuli, like bacteria, tissue injury, foreign bodies [e.g. placenta] causes some degree of coagulation). I am not aware that blood loss by and of itself causes inflammation. Of course, tissue injury can occur if oxygen delivery (from blood loss) is inadequate, which can lead to inflammation secondarily. But take my prattling with a block of salt: I'm not a medicine guy, let alone a hematologist. All I really know is that DIC is not pretty: for those not in the know, DIC (disseminated intravascular coagulation) is a horrible disorder where the body makes micro-clots everywhere and as the coagulation factors are consumed, bleed from every orifice, organ, and mucous membranes (e.g. eyes, mouth, nose, anus).

In any event, liquid oxygen at room temperature is an interesting thought. The closest we can come today is those perfluorocarbon liquids that bind oxygen: a lot of people have seen the picture of a mouse swimming and breathing in the liquid: link

 

[TGHI]

I'm not sure at all, but if we can't inhale water and extract oxygen out of it, why would we be able to convert pure oxygen if it were in liquid form? I don't think humans + liquid in resperatory system works too well. But, I am no doctor, Jim.

 

[huillam]

I'm not sure at all, but if we can't inhale water and extract oxygen out of it, why would we be able to convert pure oxygen if it were in liquid form? I don't think humans + liquid in resperatory system works too well. But, I am no doctor, Jim.

We can extract oxygen from "breathed water," but just not enough to keep oxygenated because (1) lungs are much less efficient than gills and (2) there is much less dissolved oxygen in [standing] water than there is in air. Look here.

 

[wacki]

more cool info Linky

 

[everman]

So would it be possible to use a pure liquid oxygen (or some high concentration), and not need to carry as much compared to using a tank of some gas mix for deep diving?

Or what I'm saying is, would it last longer? And when was the last time someone actually used a liquid solution for deep diving?