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History buffs, come in here! Bismarck related questions.

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Read a lot about this a long time ago on some naval discussion group. Let's see what I can remember...

The Bismarck's armor protection gets overrated. In fact it was seriously flawed. One of the big reasons it didn't put up much of a fight at the end was that the fire control was knocked out so early (as mentioned above the rudder problems were important too). This wasn't a result of lucky hits, the fire control was poorly protected. The turrets were also not as well protected as the British ships.

Also once it took on a little water and sank some, most of the armor belt/bouyancy was underwater. When the brits closed in a little later in the battle, they could only fire flat, and couldn't fire on the sides to sink it. So they blasted the top parts for a bit. It was thoroughly destroyed, it just wasn't going to sink quickly from that.

Some corroboration from this site
http://www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm
FINAL CONCLUSION: The BISMARCK's internal vitals could not be directly reached through the side belt armor under any normal circumstances due to the sloped "turtle-back" armored deck design, making its design the best of all given in this article for this purpose. However, there are several costs for this:

(1) Due to the main armored deck's low position in the ship, extensive flooding of the ship above the sloped/flat armored deck is likely if the side armor is holed, which could cause serious stability problems and which reduced protected reserve bouyancy by one complete deck

(2) The upper hull area can be destroyed at much longer ranges than any other design due to the weak side belt armor. Furthermore, some important equipment, cables, etc. were in this region, compromising the effectiveness of the protection to some (possibly critical) extent

(3) The weak lower main deck armor design -- especially the close-range zone of vulnerability after the projectile penetrated the 1.97" weather deck and was deflected downward through the thin 3.15" main armor deck over the amidships region -- allowed the possibility of reaching the vitals by hits that were deflected off of other structures, such as barbettes, or which hit "shot traps" where ricochet was inhibited (such as where a solid object was bolted to the armor deck and the projectile hit the joint, requiring the projectile to lift the solid object up or to punch through it in order to ricochet)

(4) The requirement for a rather heavy upper side hull armor belt to protect the thin main armor deck from side hits above the main armor belt, which costs considerable weight that could be used to beef up the deck armor or belt armor or both

(5) Unlike the USS SOUTH DAKOTA (and USS IOWA) or the VITTORIO VENETO, the BISMARCK's side armor does not ensure that a completely penetrating projectile is virtually always shattered and rendered "ineffective" by being decapped prior to hitting the face hardened belt armor, which reduces the damage that the projectile will usually case even if it does not penetrate through the belt

(6) The armored transverse bulkheads at each end of the Citadel were weakly protected and had no sloped deck behind them, making the BISMARCK very vulnerable to raking fire from either end, especially as the main magazines were located directly behind these bulkheads

(7) The shallow extension of the belt allowed hits below it to frequently occur, as was demonstrated during the fight with the HMS Prince of Wales, bypassing the main armor belt and aggravating any flooding effects that projectiles punching through the belt above the low main armored deck might cause

The USS SOUTH DAKOTA (or, better yet, the USS IOWA) armor scheme shows that for most naval battles, an improved "conventional" side armor design (thin armored weather deck, high mounting of the heavy main armor deck at the top edge of the main armor belt, thin upper belt armor, inclined main armor belt, thin fragment screen plating spaced behind the belt armor, decapping plate in front of the main belt, and tapered lower belt armor to protect against diving projectiles) gives protection to the vitals that is just as good, if not better, than the BISMARCK's side armor protection with equal weight of armor and without most of the bad points that the BISMARCK's low and, in the flat regions, thin main armor deck gave. If the enemy can get close enough to frequently punch through an Iowa-type belt, the battle is probably already lost, anyway, as the last battle of the BISMARCK demonstrates.
 
Something I read bout the AA gun mounts on the bismarck struck me as particularly funny: The guns themselves couldn't deflect below level...which means torpedo planes flying low enough that has closed to within a few hundred yards of the ship could actually fly under all the bullets! Of course, that was one hell of a gauntlet to run.

They would also shoot the main guns into the water to launch 50-60ft geysers of water into the air right in front of the torpedo planes to make them crash. Thought that was hilarious too.
 
They would also shoot the main guns into the water to launch 50-60ft geysers of water into the air right in front of the torpedo planes to make them crash. Thought that was hilarious too.

That was an idea that someone floated but it never worked out in practice. You'd be hard pressed to find a single plane that was shot down that way in WW2.
 
The fire director systems of the AA guns on the Bismark had problems dealing with the slower speed of the Swordfish.
 
i thought the planes flew too low for the guns' declination

Fixed.

But that was also the case I believe, but I've read in multiple books how the aiming apparatus for the Bismarck's AA guns (which afforded the gunners an accurate "lead" on the target) even set to their lowest target speed setting, was still faster than the speed of the attacking Swordfish. One of those odd occasions where the use of obsolete hardware actually led to victory.

Must have been some sight for the Royal Navy pilots, with Jerry throwing everything they could at them and missing just barely. Major pucker factor.
 
I do remember reading a book about the Bismark when much younger. In fact, it might have been "Sink the Bismark" and must have had some incorrect information then because it was touted several times as the pride of the German fleet and it was more heavily armored than anything else out there. If what Ichy and others are saying is true about it not being anything special, then the book must be wrong (and me also). They also said that most ships couldn't get close enough to damage it as the bismark could fire longer distances and would tear up ships before they got close enough to engage successfully. Glad to see the truth come out and to see that it was just a bunch of poppycock.
 
I do remember reading a book about the Bismark when much younger. In fact, it might have been "Sink the Bismark" and must have had some incorrect information then because it was touted several times as the pride of the German fleet and it was more heavily armored than anything else out there. If what Ichy and others are saying is true about it not being anything special, then the book must be wrong (and me also). They also said that most ships couldn't get close enough to damage it as the bismark could fire longer distances and would tear up ships before they got close enough to engage successfully. Glad to see the truth come out and to see that it was just a bunch of poppycock.

"sink the bismark" was also a 1960 film. i'd trust it about as far as i could throw the bismark
 
what was that tv show hosted by the older man and his son? it featured a briefcase that opened to reveal a CG battle map with red and blue forces. that was a great show with an episode on the bismark. it wasn't "battlefield" or "battleplan" although those were good too.
 
I do remember reading a book about the Bismark when much younger. In fact, it might have been "Sink the Bismark" and must have had some incorrect information then because it was touted several times as the pride of the German fleet and it was more heavily armored than anything else out there. If what Ichy and others are saying is true about it not being anything special, then the book must be wrong (and me also). They also said that most ships couldn't get close enough to damage it as the bismark could fire longer distances and would tear up ships before they got close enough to engage successfully. Glad to see the truth come out and to see that it was just a bunch of poppycock.

The Bismarck was more modern than most of the Royal Navy's battleships, that part is true. Because of the Washington & London naval treaties the RN hadn't built any new battleships between the mid 1920s and late 1930s. At the start of WW2 they had ten very old Revenge and Queen Elizabeth class battleships in service and compared to them the Bismarck was much more capable. Compared the RN's new King George V class battleships (or the American North Carolinas or South Dakotas) that were just entering service the Bismarck was nothing special.

Re: range, when you're fighting in a place with godawful weather like the North Sea there are all kinds of variables that affect how far you can effectively shoot. Some ships would have an advantage in some situations but be at a disadvantage in others.
 
Fixed.

But that was also the case I believe, but I've read in multiple books how the aiming apparatus for the Bismarck's AA guns (which afforded the gunners an accurate "lead" on the target) even set to their lowest target speed setting, was still faster than the speed of the attacking Swordfish. One of those odd occasions where the use of obsolete hardware actually led to victory.

Must have been some sight for the Royal Navy pilots, with Jerry throwing everything they could at them and missing just barely. Major pucker factor.

Most shipboard AA was pretty ineffective during the early part of WW2. The Japanese managed to sink HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales with the loss of only 3 bombers, and American and Japanese AA guns didn't claim too many planes at Midway or Guadalcanal either. More modern fire control and proximity fused shells made a big difference later on in the war.
 
If it had not been for a lucky swordfish torpedo that destroyed the Bismark's rudder, the Bismark would have easily reached France. But when the Bismark sailed out into the Baltic sea under cover of fog, the Bismark achieved an equally lucky hit on the Hood, as it hit maybe the only one really vulnerable spots on the Hood that led to the powder magazine.

A vulnerability the Brits planned to soon repair.

But in the history of war, luck always plays a heavy part. In the battle of Midway, just the failure of one ships catapult, delayed the one crucial Japanese search plane assigned to search the one area where the US carriers were. And then later as the Japanese carriers beat back one US plane attack after the other, unplanned luck again played its role, as the fleet of Japanese zero's had just finished downing US low flying torpedo bombers, the Japanese air cover zero's had no time to regain the needed altitude to combat a swarm of US dive bombers who sunk 3 out of four of the Japanese carriers in just two minutes.

And if the Bismark had ever reached French bases, its value as a commerce raider would have been near infinite.
 
And if the Bismark had ever reached French bases, its value as a commerce raider would have been near infinite.

That's pretty doubtful. Look what happened to the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau during the year they were in Brest. They accomplished very little. The Germans could've gotten far better value by putting the resources that went into the Bismarck into submarines instead.
 
And if the Bismark had ever reached French bases, its value as a commerce raider would have been near infinite.

Remember the Scharnhorst and Guinesseau were already in France and where constantly being bombed by the RAF. They never could effectivelly operate out of the French bases. Eventually the S&G and PE had to do the channel dash to get back to Germany. One of the few effective, German WW2 surface naval operations. The submarines operating out of France needed huge concrete sub pens to operate out of. The Bismarck would have been a very inviting target for RAF bomber command. The best thing the Germans could have done is after the Hood was sunk was to turn around and go back to Germany for repairs.
 
I do remember reading a book about the Bismark when much younger. In fact, it might have been "Sink the Bismark" and must have had some incorrect information then because it was touted several times as the pride of the German fleet and it was more heavily armored than anything else out there. If what Ichy and others are saying is true about it not being anything special, then the book must be wrong (and me also). They also said that most ships couldn't get close enough to damage it as the bismark could fire longer distances and would tear up ships before they got close enough to engage successfully. Glad to see the truth come out and to see that it was just a bunch of poppycock.

Bismarck was designed for short range engagements. The 15" could only elevate to 30 degress. The Germans considered the normal weather in the North Sea and Atlantic precluded having long rang battles. The US 16" guns could do 45 degrees for long range engagements in the Pacific.
 
The German surface fleet was a prestige project and a waste of resources. I shudder to think what the Kriegsmarine could have accomplished if the resources they spent on cap ships had gone to U-boats instead.

Their most successful surface ships of WW2 were probably the Atlantis and the Pinguin, cargo ships converted to commerce raiders. Not very glamorous or prestigious, but very effective early on.
 
Their most successful surface ships of WW2 were probably the Atlantis and the Pinguin, cargo ships converted to commerce raiders. Not very glamorous or prestigious, but very effective early on.

That's because they were hidden surface combatants, I remember reading a book on the Atlantis ~20 years ago. They hid in plain sight and were actually approached a few times by British ships IIRC.

As far as the Bismarck being an effective surface raider, I highly doubt they'd have done too much damage even if a breakout had occurred, as others have mentioned the other surface raiders showed that.
 
That's because they were hidden surface combatants, I remember reading a book on the Atlantis ~20 years ago.
Probably the same one I read.

As far as the Bismarck being an effective surface raider, I highly doubt they'd have done too much damage even if a breakout had occurred, as others have mentioned the other surface raiders showed that.

Kind of funny that the Bismark's sister ship the Tirpitz, achieved it's greatest success in an operation where it didn't even fire its guns. It caused the convoy PQ17 to scatter, resulting in most of the convoy being sunk by submarines.
 
Bismarck was designed for short range engagements. The 15" could only elevate to 30 degress. The Germans considered the normal weather in the North Sea and Atlantic precluded having long rang battles. The US 16" guns could do 45 degrees for long range engagements in the Pacific.

There was also the issue of fire control gear to consider. Even if the Bismarck's guns had amazing ballistic performance that wasn't very useful if they couldn't get a good long range firing solution. The Germans well known for high-end optical range finders but if I remember correctly their naval radar was second rate compared to the RN's.

Details like radar and electronic equipment aren't as easy to compare (or as sexy) as armor or guns but by WW2 it was often the most important factor in naval combat.
 
Also the 2700lb Mk 8 armour-piercing supercharged 16" projectile used in the later US battleships (e.g. Iowa class) had way more penetrative power than the 15" ammunition used of the Bismark. It was almost on par with the 18" shells of the Yamato in terms of sheer destructive capacity.
 
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