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Hispanic growth extends eastward

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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rpanic
To: Rainsford

I was looking at the Census for 2000 for your state you are so insulated from this topic. Your whole state comes up to 4.3% or 227,196 Hispanics (Census Does not say Legal or Illegal). That is nothing; we have more Illegals coming into California than Legal and Illegal Hispanics in your whole state in one year. You cannot fathom what the border states are dealing with Rainsford. When you see these protests on the news you are just seeing the very tip of a HUGE iceberg. For that matter we have more people celebrating Cinco De Mayo in the streets of LA every year than the whole Hispanic population of your state.

Very clever...but what your mad intelligence gathering skills might not have revealed is that, before I moved to Maryland (about 2 years ago) I spent a significant amount of time living and working in California, north of San Francisco in Sonoma county. While you're right about Maryland not exactly being a haven for Hispanics, where I lived in California definitely was...especially as that area is wine country, and a LOT of illegal aliens and legal immigrants lived there and worked on the surrounding farms and vineyards.

And you know what? If anything, living there made me care even less about the influx of Hispanic immigrants, legal or otherwise. They aren't invaders or the ridiculous villains portrayed in the conservative press, hellbent on destroying America. Most of them seem to want pretty much the same things the rest of us do, and while I think more of them should probably learn English, if only to expand their own opportunities, I don't understand why people get so worked up about that. And I personally LIKED the fact that that area offered some cultural variety...I don't see what the big deal is.

And in all seriousness, I'm sick and tired of this "you just don't know what you're talking about" bullshit. Don't assume everyone has the same closeminded reaction to things that you do.

You lived in a beautiful place when you lived in Northern California. If I only lived there and Maryland I would probably think like you to. I go wine tasting with my friends a few times a year two so I know the area and can tell you they are worlds apart. Move to a major border city and see how you feel after you get hit by a car and the guy doesn?t speak English or have a license, and you have no recourse.

It?s like me telling you how to drive in snow. LOL


 
Originally posted by: Rainsford

That is an argument FOR "amnesty" and more open immigration.

True, it could be used that way. It could also be part of an argument against illegal immigration that doesn't necessarily entail increasing legal immigration. The point was that illegals have fewer incentives not to engage in criminal behavior.
 
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't believe I've said anything about my views on borders or illegal immigration, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't take too long for any discussion of illegal immigration to turn to "those damn Mexicans".
Thank you for your contribution on the matter -- there's always a need for a P.C. specialist with a tweaked Racist-o-Meter.

Illegal immigration, for a lot of you at least, is just cheap political cover, because the days of openly being racist are long gone. Sort of like how discussions of "law and order" in the bad old days were cover for cracking down on black people who were getting too uppity.
Those blacks people you refer to were legally in the country, so they had every right to get uppity. This huge bunch got uppity when they have no right to be here.

In any case, it is obviously you're here to slap the label racist on anyone who doesn't conform to your world view, and no doubt you are disconnected from reality as to how the influx of illegals has benefitted neighborhoods.

So, what can I say? It's one thing to break the law, and it's another to rub it in other people's face, especially when they don't notice all the "benefits" brought by the illegals.

I'll tell you what I have notice: there's a lot more people loitering around at street corners nowadays, and that's always a good thing.
 
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't believe I've said anything about my views on borders or illegal immigration, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't take too long for any discussion of illegal immigration to turn to "those damn Mexicans".
Thank you for your contribution on the matter -- there's always a need for a P.C. specialist with a tweaked Racist-o-Meter.

Illegal immigration, for a lot of you at least, is just cheap political cover, because the days of openly being racist are long gone. Sort of like how discussions of "law and order" in the bad old days were cover for cracking down on black people who were getting too uppity.
Those blacks people you refer to were legally in the country, so they had every right to get uppity. This huge bunch got uppity when they have no right to be here.

In any case, it is obviously you're here to slap the label racist on anyone who doesn't conform to your world view, and no doubt you are disconnected from reality as to how the influx of illegals has benefitted neighborhoods.

So, what can I say? It's one thing to break the law, and it's another to rub it in other people's face, especially when they don't notice all the "benefits" brought by the illegals.

I'll tell you what I have notice: there's a lot more people loitering around at street corners nowadays, and that's always a good thing.

Your notice of street corner populations is certainly far more important then in depth economic analysis done that has showed there are significant benefits to middle class and up Americans from illegal immigration. Why doesn't the xenophobe crowd try and use some actual academic papers/research on the subject instead of chain mails, op-ed pieces, and personal anecdotes?
 
Originally posted by: rpanic
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rpanic
To: Rainsford

I was looking at the Census for 2000 for your state you are so insulated from this topic. Your whole state comes up to 4.3% or 227,196 Hispanics (Census Does not say Legal or Illegal). That is nothing; we have more Illegals coming into California than Legal and Illegal Hispanics in your whole state in one year. You cannot fathom what the border states are dealing with Rainsford. When you see these protests on the news you are just seeing the very tip of a HUGE iceberg. For that matter we have more people celebrating Cinco De Mayo in the streets of LA every year than the whole Hispanic population of your state.

Very clever...but what your mad intelligence gathering skills might not have revealed is that, before I moved to Maryland (about 2 years ago) I spent a significant amount of time living and working in California, north of San Francisco in Sonoma county. While you're right about Maryland not exactly being a haven for Hispanics, where I lived in California definitely was...especially as that area is wine country, and a LOT of illegal aliens and legal immigrants lived there and worked on the surrounding farms and vineyards.

And you know what? If anything, living there made me care even less about the influx of Hispanic immigrants, legal or otherwise. They aren't invaders or the ridiculous villains portrayed in the conservative press, hellbent on destroying America. Most of them seem to want pretty much the same things the rest of us do, and while I think more of them should probably learn English, if only to expand their own opportunities, I don't understand why people get so worked up about that. And I personally LIKED the fact that that area offered some cultural variety...I don't see what the big deal is.

And in all seriousness, I'm sick and tired of this "you just don't know what you're talking about" bullshit. Don't assume everyone has the same closeminded reaction to things that you do.

You lived in a beautiful place when you lived in Northern California. If I only lived there and Maryland I would probably think like you to. I go wine tasting with my friends a few times a year two so I know the area and can tell you they are worlds apart. Move to a major border city and see how you feel after you get hit by a car and the guy doesn?t speak English or have a license, and you have no recourse.

It?s like me telling you how to drive in snow. LOL

As I've said like 10 times I live in San Diego. That's a major border city... and I agree 100% with Rainsford. The more I live here the less I care about it. To be honest it's nice to live in a city where it isn't 100% vanilla faces.

So no, people don't all have the same closeminded reaction to things that you do, even those in border cities.
 
Originally posted by: dna
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I don't believe I've said anything about my views on borders or illegal immigration, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't take too long for any discussion of illegal immigration to turn to "those damn Mexicans".
Thank you for your contribution on the matter -- there's always a need for a P.C. specialist with a tweaked Racist-o-Meter.

Illegal immigration, for a lot of you at least, is just cheap political cover, because the days of openly being racist are long gone. Sort of like how discussions of "law and order" in the bad old days were cover for cracking down on black people who were getting too uppity.
Those blacks people you refer to were legally in the country, so they had every right to get uppity. This huge bunch got uppity when they have no right to be here.

In any case, it is obviously you're here to slap the label racist on anyone who doesn't conform to your world view, and no doubt you are disconnected from reality as to how the influx of illegals has benefitted neighborhoods.

So, what can I say? It's one thing to break the law, and it's another to rub it in other people's face, especially when they don't notice all the "benefits" brought by the illegals.

I'll tell you what I have notice: there's a lot more people loitering around at street corners nowadays, and that's always a good thing.

Utter and complete bullshit. You and many others like you try to go on the offensive by twisting any racial discussion into "pc". There are many cases of political correctness, and I disagree with it, too. I think inclusive language goes overboard. I don't believe in "hate crimes" - all crimes should be judged on the action, and not the racial motivation.

But your argument here that these comments are "pc" is just spin. It is a fact that many people in this country dislike Hispanics, particularly Mexican, and it is a fact that many of these discussions of "illegals" becomes a justification of anti-Hispanic sentiment. You personally may not be doing that, but it is CRYSTAL clear in this thread that this has happened. All you have to do is go back and look at the characterizations, and ask yourself whether these comments have anything to do with the people being illegal, or if it has more to do with them being Hispanic or Mexican.

 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: rpanic
To: Rainsford

I was looking at the Census for 2000 for your state you are so insulated from this topic. Your whole state comes up to 4.3% or 227,196 Hispanics (Census Does not say Legal or Illegal). That is nothing; we have more Illegals coming into California than Legal and Illegal Hispanics in your whole state in one year. You cannot fathom what the border states are dealing with Rainsford. When you see these protests on the news you are just seeing the very tip of a HUGE iceberg. For that matter we have more people celebrating Cinco De Mayo in the streets of LA every year than the whole Hispanic population of your state.

Very clever...but what your mad intelligence gathering skills might not have revealed is that, before I moved to Maryland (about 2 years ago) I spent a significant amount of time living and working in California, north of San Francisco in Sonoma county. While you're right about Maryland not exactly being a haven for Hispanics, where I lived in California definitely was...especially as that area is wine country, and a LOT of illegal aliens and legal immigrants lived there and worked on the surrounding farms and vineyards.

And you know what? If anything, living there made me care even less about the influx of Hispanic immigrants, legal or otherwise. They aren't invaders or the ridiculous villains portrayed in the conservative press, hellbent on destroying America. Most of them seem to want pretty much the same things the rest of us do, and while I think more of them should probably learn English, if only to expand their own opportunities, I don't understand why people get so worked up about that. And I personally LIKED the fact that that area offered some cultural variety...I don't see what the big deal is.

And in all seriousness, I'm sick and tired of this "you just don't know what you're talking about" bullshit. Don't assume everyone has the same closeminded reaction to things that you do.

You lived in a beautiful place when you lived in Northern California. If I only lived there and Maryland I would probably think like you to. I go wine tasting with my friends a few times a year two so I know the area and can tell you they are worlds apart. Move to a major border city and see how you feel after you get hit by a car and the guy doesn?t speak English or have a license, and you have no recourse.

It?s like me telling you how to drive in snow. LOL

As I've said like 10 times I live in San Diego. That's a major border city... and I agree 100% with Rainsford. The more I live here the less I care about it. To be honest it's nice to live in a city where it isn't 100% vanilla faces.

So no, people don't all have the same closeminded reaction to things that you do, even those in border cities.

It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

 
Originally posted by: rpanic
It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

Maybe you should just list the areas that its okay to live in so that someone can have an informed opinion on illegal immigration in your eyes.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

Maybe you should just list the areas that its okay to live in so that someone can have an informed opinion on illegal immigration in your eyes.


To many to list right now ask me in 50 years when there are almost none 🙂
 
Originally posted by: rpanic
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

Maybe you should just list the areas that its okay to live in so that someone can have an informed opinion on illegal immigration in your eyes.


To many to list right now ask me in 50 years when there are almost none 🙂

I meant that you said before that Rainsford didn't understand the immigration problem, he mentioned that he lived in California... which you said wasn't good enough and that someone would have to live in a large border city. I said that I currently live in a large border city, but apparently my large border city (despite having the largest crossing area in the world), is not border-y enough for me to have a valid opinion either.

I'm just trying to figure out what cities one needs to live in so that their opinion on immigration is valid... because I know an awful lot of people who live in border areas who are incredibly greatful to the immigrants who come here.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Your notice of street corner populations is certainly far more important then in depth economic analysis done that has showed there are significant benefits to middle class and up Americans from illegal immigration. Why doesn't the xenophobe crowd try and use some actual academic papers/research on the subject instead of chain mails, op-ed pieces, and personal anecdotes?
Gee, what a surprise: the contractors who exploit these people for work, the slum lords who stuff 100 of them into a one studio, and the homeowners who -- as Sayd Kutb -- are obssesed with their lawn all benefit from the influx of illegals.

No doubt that we all benefit from having two different tiers in our society and the impressive teen pregnancy rates that the illegals bring with them -- we could definitely use another batch of illiterates who think somebody owes them something just for existing.

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
But your argument here that these comments are "pc" is just spin. It is a fact that many people in this country dislike Hispanics, particularly Mexican, and it is a fact that many of these discussions of "illegals" becomes a justification of anti-Hispanic sentiment.
Still waiting for you to tell us how you're so knowledgable about the effetcs of illegal immigration. As for hating Hispanics, there's plenty illegal Chinese, Russians and others; the big difference (besides the numbers), is the fact that the other groups have not stage a street protest to demand rights.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

Maybe you should just list the areas that its okay to live in so that someone can have an informed opinion on illegal immigration in your eyes.


To many to list right now ask me in 50 years when there are almost none 🙂



I'm just trying to figure out what cities one needs to live in so that their opinion on immigration is valid... because I know an awful lot of people who live in border areas who are incredibly greatful to the immigrants who come here.


Another greatful city to illegal immigrants:

LINK


Immigrants strain Big Easy's healthcare

Post-Katrina, New Orleans copes with workers who often can?t afford care
By Ron Mott
Correspondent



NEW ORLEANS - The baby business has never been as busy or costly for Dr. Kevin Work.

"I'm really not making any money," he says.

His deliveries are up six-fold since Katrina, to about 65 a month.

"This whole situation is straining the system, but whose problem it shouldn't be is the patient's," he says.

Patients like 21-year-olds Juliana and Ricardo, recent immigrants from Mexico.

In the past two years, some 10,000 Latinos have moved here, many lured by the promise of construction work as the city rebuilds from Hurricane Katrina ? jobs that pay up to $15 an hour.

The money's good, but insurance is out of reach and a risk.

"He accepted us without papers," says Juliana.

And he asked no questions, she says, important for undocumented workers worried about deportation.

Despite those fears, many immigrants head to home supply stores and busy street corners nearly every day looking for work to support their growing families. It's a scene some critics find offensive and exploitative.

"There is simply no way that the cost ? the value provided by those illegal workers ? is going to be more than what it's costing the community to provide all these services," says Dan Stein with the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

Because of their legal status, many immigrants forego standard medical care. Charity Hospital, New Orleans' largest for low-income patients, remains closed.

"We're trying to get every woman into prenatal care," says Shauna Lovera with the Latino Health Access Network. "Regardless of if it's free or not free, it's still better for the baby and the mother."

But when expectant mothers show up at private hospital emergency rooms ? already in labor ? the law says they must be treated, even if they can't pay.

Juliana and Ricardo are trying to pay their own way, but they can afford little more.


 
Woman SSN stolen and sold over and over by 81 Illegals. Her life is screwed.

LINK



Suspected illegal immigrants steal woman's identity; problem draws fire from activist groups


(AP) Audra Schmierer's Social Security number really gets around. It has been used by at least 81 people in 17 states, most of them probably illegal immigrants trying to get work.

The federal government took years to discover the number was being used illegally, but authorities took little action even then.

"They knew what was happening but wouldn't do anything," said Schmierer, 33, a housewife in this affluent San Francisco suburb. "One name, one number, why can't they just match it up?"

Her case is an example of an increasingly common problem: Many thieves are able to steal personal information because employers do not have to verify Social Security numbers or other documents submitted by job seekers.

The situation has long drawn fire from anti-illegal immigration groups, but Congress has only recently moved to fix it. Both the House and Senate have passed immigration-reform bills that call for employers to verify Social Security numbers in a national database.

Homeland Security officials have taken it a step further, calling on Congress to allow the Social Security Administration to share information with immigration-enforcement agents at work sites.

Under current law, if the Social Security Administration or the Internal Revenue Service find multiple people using the same Social Security number, the agencies send letters informing employers of possible errors.

The IRS can fine employers $50 for each inaccurate number filed, a punishment that companies often dismiss as just another cost of doing business.

"Sending letters is the limit to what can be done," Social Security spokesman Lowell Kepke said. "We expect that will be able to fix any records that are incorrect."

The information on mismatched names is seldom shared with law enforcement agencies.

Schmierer realized she had a problem in February 2005, when she got a statement from the IRS saying she owed $15,813 in back taxes _ even though she had not worked since her son was born in 2000.

Perhaps even more surprising, the taxes were due from jobs in Texas.

Schmierer called the IRS and learned that numerous people were using her Social Security number. Officials said the erroneous balances would be eliminated, but the agency would have to correct the problem again in future years.

"They told me they couldn't do anything else," Schmierer said.

IRS officials declined to talk about Schmierer's case, citing privacy laws.

Schmierer has done a little investigating of her own, combing through tax bills sent to her for names and locations of employers who hired people using her number.

She has also obtained more than 200 W-2 and 1099 tax forms that contained her Social Security number but different names. Schmierer provided copies of the records to The Associated Press.

People used her Social Security number from Florida to Washington state, at construction sites, fast-food restaurants and even major high-tech companies. Some opened bank accounts using the number.

Most of the people worked multiple jobs in the same year, though some remained at the same company for several years. The top wage earner made $39,465, but most reported income of less than $15,000.

Though impossible to verify in every case, information gleaned from criminal investigations, tax documents and other sources suggested that most of the users were probably illegal immigrants.

Schmierer filed a police report after learning one man had used her information in 2003 at janitorial and landscaping companies near Haltom City, Texas.

Investigators found the man, who told officers he had bought a fake Social Security card at a flea market, according to a police report. He was not arrested.

Schmierer tracked down other people, finding that her number had been used to get work but not to access her credit card or bank accounts.

What started as a hassle turned into a major headache earlier this year when she sought work through a temporary agency that learned her Social Security number had been used by a woman in Texas two years earlier. The agency could not hire Schmierer for more than a month while the situation was clarified.

"How do you prove that you are you?" Schmierer said. "It's like you are guilty until proven innocent."

While returning from a trip to Mexico with her husband last year, Schmierer was detained for four hours in a Dallas airport by immigration officials. The reason: a woman using her Social Security number was wanted for a felony.

Schmierer never determined how her number became so widely used. Sellers of fake documents often make up numbers and use them repeatedly.

Schmierer's number became so compromised that Social Security officials finally took a rare step used only in extreme cases: They gave her a new one.

Schmierer hopes that will end her frustrations, but she suspects her old number will continue to be misused.

"It's clear to me that because my number has been used for so long, it's not going to stop," she said.
 
Evaristo Silva came to the U.S. illegally to chase the American Dream. Now a citizen and farm owner, he sees a need to restrict immigration.

By Miguel Bustillo, L.A. Times Staff Writer
June 21, 2006

June 21, 2006

TIETON, Wash. ? His name is Evaristo Silva, but the immigrant farm hands address him with reverence as Don Varo.

He once was one of them ? a poor and desperate young man from Mexico who left behind a pregnant wife and three children and risked his life crossing the border on an illegal search for the American Dream. Now he is everything they aspire to be.

The farmworker became a farm owner, saving enough to buy a small apple orchard on the outskirts of Yakima. The illegal immigrant became a United States citizen, benefiting from the amnesty President Reagan offered to his generation of undocumented migrants.

"For me, this really was the land of opportunity," Silva, 62, said as he walked along the tidy rows of his red delicious apple trees. "In Mexico, I would wake up on many days without knowing how I was going to eat. I may not have much here, but I am so much better off than I would have been if I had stayed."

But now that the campesino is a ranchero, and needs illegal immigrants to pick and prune his apple orchard, he has found that they don't need him any more to succeed in America.

Silva now wants to end illegal immigration. He wants an expanded guest worker program so that farm owners like him could still benefit from the cheap labor of Mexican workers. The foreigners could come into the U.S. to work harvests, but would then have to go home.

He feels this way despite understanding that such a radical shift ? most fruit pickers are illegal immigrants ? would separate fathers from their families every growing season, and guarantee that younger field hands never get the opportunities he had.

"Everything has a limit," Silva said in Spanish, the language he's most comfortable speaking. "People who are working and have been here a long time should be allowed to stay. But if half of Latin America keeps coming ? Hondurans, Salvadorans, Mexicans ? you will reach a point where we don't all fit."

Silva's new stance on immigration is largely based on his own bottom line. Yakima Valley apple growers are struggling to survive because they face global competition from farmers in China and Chile who undercut their prices.

Silva is having a hard time finding field hands willing to work for $8 to $10 an hour ? the most he and other farmers say they can afford ? because illegal immigrants can now earn more as year-round construction workers and janitors.

Silva scrounged up a crew last year to harvest his 40 acres, but other farmers were less fortunate: Some of their apples rotted on the trees. Still, low apple prices have so eroded Silva's profits that for the last two years, he has not been able to make payments on his orchard.

Without a guest worker program, the farm hand turned farm owner believes he will lose his land.



As Silva toured his orchard, tugging wayward branches at just about every step, he marveled at how much he had accomplished since sneaking into the U.S. three decades ago.

A small man with evocative brown eyes, graying hair and a bushy mustache, Silva wore a red-check flannel shirt, faded blue jeans and brown work boots. Somewhat jarringly, he also wore a yellow construction helmet, a habit he picked up as a field hand worried that a falling apple might thump him in the head.

His had not been an easy life, he conceded; he was sometimes "treated like another piece of farm equipment" in his years as a farmworker. But as he surveyed his family's homestead amid the gently rolling hills of his apple orchard, he stopped and said, "I have lived a beautiful life."

Silva is a native of Pajacuaran, a poor old farming town in the Mexican state of Michoacan. Generations of men from his town ? including Silva's father, Jesus ? have illegally entered the U.S. to work the fields. Their wages, often just a few thousand dollars a year, were princely compared with what the same work would pay in Pajacuaran.

Silva started out working the harvests in America and returning home each year. But after he nearly died crossing the desert east of San Diego in 1972, he got scared of crossing back and forth and decided to stay in the U.S.

A devout Roman Catholic and devoted family man, Silva lived away from his children for so long that when two of them unexpectedly showed up on his doorstep one day, he did not recognize them. The memory of it made him cry. "At the time my children needed me most, I was away," Silva said, wiping away tears. Apologizing, he continued: "But it was out of necessity."

The entire family eventually reunited in Washington, where Silva followed in his father's path and found plentiful work as an apple picker. His children also became citizens; his wife, Maria, became a legal resident.

"When my husband first told me he was in Washington ? to me, a Mexican, it sounded very cold, like he was at the end of the world," Maria said with a smile. "But we have really done well here as a family. This is our home now."

Don Varo belongs to a generation of migrant field hands that has transformed the Yakima Valley into a postmodern melting pot east of the Cascade Range. Yakima County's population in 1990 was 188,823, and was less than one-fourth Latino. A decade later, its population grew by 34,000, and about 27,000 of the newcomers are Latinos, according to U.S. census figures.

Side by side with the burger joints and rib shacks on Yakima's increasingly urban thoroughfares, restaurants sell authentic antojitos Mexicanos, or Mexican small dishes, and a popular downtown supermarket called La Bodega Yakimex features ethnic delicacies such as nopales, an edible part of the prickly pear cactus.

Although Latino immigrants have been praised for creating a bustling small-business community that has invigorated the Yakima Valley, they have also been blamed for higher crime, as well as overcrowding in some of the city's oldest neighborhoods, where it is common for several immigrant families to share a single worn-out bungalow. Numerous street gangs roam Yakima, and their graffiti brands venerable buildings with crude monikers such as "Original Loko Boyz" and "Can't Stop Mexicans."

"It wouldn't be so bad if migrant laborers did what they used to do: work, pick up and go home. But the current system, where they bring their families and stay, has the potential to bankrupt us," said John Tierney, a former state trooper who is chairman of the Yakima County Republican Party. "If you talk to people who've been here a while, including the legal Latino immigrants, many will tell you we have seen an erosion of quality of life."

Silva's hometown of Tieton, about 15 miles northwest of Yakima, is just a few streets of modest bungalows and a handful of agricultural packinghouses surrounded by family owned orchards. It has not escaped the changes, or the resulting friction. But it is still a sleepy backwater of 1,150 people.

For Silva, it is everything he wanted: He and his wife, the children and their families all live within a few hundred feet of one another amid his apple trees.

At the crest of the road from his old ranch house sit two boxy manufactured homes, with satellite dishes pointing skyward and bicycles and plastic toys strewn where grandchildren had left them. One is the home of his oldest daughter, Maria, who is studying to become a beautician; the other is the home of his only son, Evaristo Jr., who owns a carpet and tile business.

At the bottom of the slope in a weathered gray farm cottage lives Lucia, who runs her own day-care center. Another daughter, Lupe, a church secretary, lives down the road in a large trailer. "I am who I am," she said, "because of the United States."

Adriana, the youngest, who was born in the U.S., is living with her parents while she attends community college to become a dental hygienist.

Silva's children range from 19 to 38 years old. He has 11 grandchildren, with another on the way, and he has high hopes for them all ? that they become engineers, doctors or lawyers. His own education, he reminds them, ended after fifth grade so he could help support his family.

Silva's six brothers also sneaked across the border in search of a better life, and all live legally in America now, part of an extended family of more than 250 parents, children and grandchildren. When they all go together, the Silvas fill a Yakima Valley Catholic church. When they gather for Christmas, they rent a conference hall.

By American standards, the Silvas' standard of living remains modest at best. But as Silva's wife, Maria, likes to say, even average Americans "live like the rich of Pajacuaran."



The five varieties of apple trees Silva planted a decade ago are now mature, and they bear beautiful fruit. They grow sweet yellow-specked gala apples, big golden delicious apples, heart-shaped red delicious apples.

But they don't bring Don Varo much money.

The first few years were good ? the trees made him a sweet profit. But the market for Washington apples went into a slump, and Silva has fallen more than $40,000 behind on his land payments.

The old farmer he is buying the land from is sympathetic, and patient. Still, Silva wonders how much longer he can continue. He had hoped to leave the land to his children. Now he thinks he may only be able to keep their homes.

"What Evaristo has, that is probably the lowest number of acres you can have and still make a living," said a neighboring farmer, Tony Pottratz, as he stopped his tractor to chat with Silva.

Pottratz didn't mention it, but he was helping the Silvas put Adriana though college by paying $500 toward her tuition every semester. She would be the first in the family with a college education.

Silva had hoped to ease into retirement; instead, to pay his bills he is driving a tractor for a larger grower. His wife still works the early shift at a fruit packing plant.

As he cut through another neighbor's rows of cherry trees on the walk home, Silva ran into a crew of Mexican field hands clipping branches. The younger men were clumsily performing a task Silva had mastered, and he began to give them unsolicited advice, telling them to trim some stems that had grown too close together.

"This man here with me, he is with la migra. He has some questions for you," Silva said in jest. The workers did not laugh.

Silva started talking about illegal immigration. He told them he supported tightening the borders and limiting opportunities to guest programs that required workers like them to return home.

"You all no longer want to do this kind of work, and I understand, because you can hardly pay your bills," Silva said. "But you can go to work for a factory," while farmers have no choice but to find ways around labor shortages.

"Let the Americans come and do this," a laborer chimed in with a grin before going back to work.

Most of the men kept trimming, but one, clad in a soiled Central Washington University sweatshirt and a baseball cap emblazoned with the letters "Mexico," turned around.

"If you want us here to work, you should give us a chance to become citizens," said Jesus Estrada, 50, a father of eight children who lives with his family in Yakima year-round. "Coming here to work and then being forced to go home again ? that's not opportunity."

"If it keeps up like this, people won't fit here anymore," Silva said of illegal immigration. "Have you seen the graffiti in Yakima? They are having urban problems there, gang problems. It was never like that before."

"You used to see migrant workers from California, even Texas, up here during the harvest," said Estrada, who has been pruning local apple orchards for 20 years. "But now you owners are paying $7 an hour, $8 an hour, and that is just not enough to live."

"When you are a worker, I know, it does not sound like a lot," Silva said, "but if you are a ranchero like me, believe me, it is a lot."

If farmers like him go broke, Silva said, there will be less work for men such as Estrada.

If workers like him cannot earn enough to pay their bills as field hands, Estrada countered, they will not travel to Yakima as illegal immigrants or legal guest workers, and the labor shortages will only get worse.

As a chilly breeze blew, the two men continued arguing for a few minutes, but it was clear that neither was going to change his mind. The farmer went back to his apple orchard, and the field hand resumed trimming the cherry trees.

 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

Maybe you should just list the areas that its okay to live in so that someone can have an informed opinion on illegal immigration in your eyes.


To many to list right now ask me in 50 years when there are almost none 🙂

I meant that you said before that Rainsford didn't understand the immigration problem, he mentioned that he lived in California... which you said wasn't good enough and that someone would have to live in a large border city. I said that I currently live in a large border city, but apparently my large border city (despite having the largest crossing area in the world), is not border-y enough for me to have a valid opinion either.

I'm just trying to figure out what cities one needs to live in so that their opinion on immigration is valid... because I know an awful lot of people who live in border areas who are incredibly greatful to the immigrants who come here.

To be honest I base most of my personal opinions from living in LA and traveling for business. And I have never seen any place as bad as Los Angeles. I was in Huston and Dallas for a half a month stints and it looked like it was on the way in some areas. Chicago (I know not border city) also looked bad, but none of these come even close to LA but that is probably because I live here and see things on a daily basis. I don?t want the way LA has turned out to be the fate of the rest of the US.

I said the comment about Rainsfield because as far as I know he has lived in the two very nice places that hasn?t been hit by all the negative effects of mass illegal immigration. I am sure when he lived in Sonoma encountered immigrants but in a much different setting than here, same with San Diego, you don?t see the same things so spread out as you do here. All you have to do is just take side streets instead of the freeway around here and you see a whole different world. And you know what, I am sure part of it is because I have become jaded to the subject because of things that have happened to me but at least I am discussing this honestly as I can.

And I am not saying they are evil or anything, it?s just my self, family, and friends have all been negatively impacted by illegal immigration. And I think if we were living in the US and had only legal immigration from all over the world including south of the border there would be hardly any problems and we wouldn?t be having this discussion.

Also I have lots of Hispanic friends which just like my self I would prefer to just call Americans. I don?t know why we have to add the country of origin (African-American Irish-American Mexican-American and so on I think that?s another divisive thing but I guess that?s another subject.


 
Originally posted by: rpanic
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

Maybe you should just list the areas that its okay to live in so that someone can have an informed opinion on illegal immigration in your eyes.


To many to list right now ask me in 50 years when there are almost none 🙂

I meant that you said before that Rainsford didn't understand the immigration problem, he mentioned that he lived in California... which you said wasn't good enough and that someone would have to live in a large border city. I said that I currently live in a large border city, but apparently my large border city (despite having the largest crossing area in the world), is not border-y enough for me to have a valid opinion either.

I'm just trying to figure out what cities one needs to live in so that their opinion on immigration is valid... because I know an awful lot of people who live in border areas who are incredibly greatful to the immigrants who come here.

To be honest I base most of my personal opinions from living in LA and traveling for business. And I have never seen any place as bad as Los Angeles. I was in Huston and Dallas for a half a month stints and it looked like it was on the way in some areas. Chicago (I know not border city) also looked bad, but none of these come even close to LA but that is probably because I live here and see things on a daily basis. I don?t want the way LA has turned out to be the fate of the rest of the US.

I said the comment about Rainsfield because as far as I know he has lived in the two very nice places that hasn?t been hit by all the negative effects of mass illegal immigration. I am sure when he lived in Sonoma encountered immigrants but in a much different setting than here, same with San Diego, you don?t see the same things so spread out as you do here. All you have to do is just take side streets instead of the freeway around here and you see a whole different world. And you know what, I am sure part of it is because I have become jaded to the subject because of things that have happened to me but at least I am discussing this honestly as I can.

And I am not saying they are evil or anything, it?s just my self, family, and friends have all been negatively impacted by illegal immigration. And I think if we were living in the US and had only legal immigration from all over the world including south of the border there would be hardly any problems and we wouldn?t be having this discussion.

Also I have lots of Hispanic friends which just like my self I would prefer to just call Americans. I don?t know why we have to add the country of origin (African-American Irish-American Mexican-American and so on I think that?s another divisive thing but I guess that?s another subject.

I think you missed the point of my living in California story. Ignoring for a moment how ridiculous you sound judging that area from "going wine tasting a few times a year", you are right to a large extent...it IS a nice place to live. If I ever get the chance, I'll be moving back there because I enjoyed living there. Which is exactly the point, there were a ton of immigrants, legal and illegal, and it was still a very nice place to live. The fact that LA is a shithole is simply another data point, there is nothing about LA that makes it somehow a more authentic immigration experience than northern California. You're starting with a foregone conclusion, and then rejecting everything that doesn't agree with you. Your point about Maryland is valid, there AREN'T a lot of Mexican immigrants here, illegal or otherwise, so it's a poor way to judge the effects of immigration. But northern California has a ton of them, and so is a very valid way to judge their effect on the country. The fact that my experience doesn't support your conclusion is not really my problem.

Your previous crack about snow is actually an excellent analogy. Although Maryland does get snow during the winter, we don't get it very often, and consequently the people here are TERRIBLE at driving in the snow. If we get more than a few inches, everything closes down because it's "too dangerous" to drive. Anyone observing Marylanders driving in the snow would quickly assume that driving in the snow is really hard, no matter how little there is. It seems ridiculous to me, because I have lived somewhere other than Maryland and California...Iowa and Minnesota, where winter really means winter. In Minnesota, we frequently went to school with more than a foot of snow on the ground, and while everyone drove a little slower, they drove just fine. Now, are those two different experiences a result of one not being "authentic" enough, or is it possible that the world is not completely uniform?
 
Why is LA a huge shit hole.

I wonder how Palestinians? feel about Jewish settlements expanding into there country. I bet they feel invaded. A little different but in some ways the same.
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: rpanic
It?s not that bad in San Diego because Illegals tend to skip over that city in fear of easy deportation. I have been there many times, and have family there it?s a nice place.

Maybe you should just list the areas that its okay to live in so that someone can have an informed opinion on illegal immigration in your eyes.

rpanic is right. Illegal aliens stay away from San Diego for fears of being caught by ICE. Those fears go back to the years when there was more enforcement than there is now. It's the same reason that they fear going to the airport, federal bldg, etc. Those fears may be unfounded, however they do exist.

 
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