Hiring and references

[Mark R]

Was interviewing at work last week looking to hire someone for a particular job.

Anyway, it was time to make the decision, so we had a big meeting and all the scores and references were brought out.

I had quite liked one of the candidates, but their references were quite shocking. Essentially, their current employer (they were working a 6 month contract) basically said "Mr X is unreliable and frequently late with poor attendance. His basic knowledge is poor and not sufficient for the position he has applied for. He has caused significant animosity among the staff and clients. He will not be considered for extension of his current term or rehire. I regret to inform you that I cannot recommend Mr X."

I must admit I've never come across a flat-out bad reference like this before. I was kind of wondering whether to ignore the references, on the basis, that maybe the boss had some sort of personal problem with him.

However, I was spared that decision as the other candidates all scored much higher on interview and resume points, and I didn't want to be the one explaining to a court why I hadn't hired someone who was, objectively at least, the better candidate.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Skipping references is a truly horrible idea. I've been tempted to skip them in the past as well and I'm always extremely glad I didn't. I also run a credit check on people I want to hire because inability to handle money tells me they're either secretly stupid or too irresponsible to be worth the risk. So far, I've hired 18 people and never had a dud, so I believe my methodology works pretty well.

Edit: Also, the bad reference in this case sounded very legit and not at all like a personal problem, at least to me. I've had people say much, much worse about potential candidates. Usually if the reference is bad, I don't even care how true it is. There are usually ways to smooth things over well enough to have the person not rip you to shreds. If that fails, you should be smart enough not to list them as a reference or figure out how to use someone else. Either way, it makes no difference to me because if I get the slightest sense that you're a problem, I'm moving on to another candidate. I don't have time for that shit.

 

[D1gger]

Wow! I'm shocked that the current employer would be that open about the employee. I have only once given a negative reference regarding a past employee and I was very careful to do it only verbally to someone who I knew very well. I don't need a lawsuit if a past employee doesn't get a good reference.

 

[MrDudeMan]

Wow! I'm shocked that the current employer would be that open about the employee. I have only once given a negative reference regarding a past employee and I was very careful to do it only verbally to someone who I knew very well. I don't need a lawsuit if a past employee doesn't get a good reference.

Why not? If I had an employee treat my business as poorly as the person in the OP, I'd rip them a fucking new one if someone called to ask for a reference. As long as you tell the truth and can back it up, you're allowed to say whatever you want.

I've given poor references for sub-contractors who tried to use me as a reference after I fired them. I didn't have any control over hiring them, but I was able to fire them - weird situation. Anyway, they knew I was pissed (hence being fired) and listed me anyway. Dumb.

 

[Pens1566]

Some companies direct their employees to not give references at all. They're only allowed to answer simple questions about whether or not the person worked there and the time period. Anything else must be directed to human resources.

 

[mrjminer]

Some companies direct their employees to not give references at all. They're only allowed to answer simple questions about whether or not the person worked there and the time period. Anything else must be directed to human resources.

Every employer I've worked for has had this policy for confirming employment. For references at that employer you specify, I *think* it's pretty much anything goes as along as it is true, so choose wisely. I'm not an HR person, though, so I couldn't say for sure.

Personally, if it were me, I would ask the candidate to explain / rebut, otherwise you're just taking some other person's word for it that you don't know either. Also, even if I didn't believe them, to let them know so the poor bastard could at least get a job somewhere else by omitting the reference. For all you know, they could have just used the microwave for too long one day with the other person behind them in line.

 

[KB]

It's possible the current employer didn't want the employee to be hired away so he lied. I am amazed by the direct reference too. I have been told you can be sued if you say too much about a reference.

 

[mizzou]

lol! Ive never coached my references, because I know they would genuinely say positive shit. Thats crazy he uses someone from a prior employer that hates his guts hahahah

 

[JManInPhoenix]

Surprising. Usually the kiss of death reference is "Mr X was employed here from January 2013 to March 2014" - with nothing else added.

 

[jpiniero]

Some companies direct their employees to not give references at all. They're only allowed to answer simple questions about whether or not the person worked there and the time period. Anything else must be directed to human resources.

Some? I thought that was the standard these days at any company that's not tiny to the point I almost wondered why people even ask for references.

Of course contractors are fair season.

 

[alkemyst]

Wow! I'm shocked that the current employer would be that open about the employee. I have only once given a negative reference regarding a past employee and I was very careful to do it only verbally to someone who I knew very well. I don't need a lawsuit if a past employee doesn't get a good reference.

QFT, this reference sounds like someone that is bitter about the employee leaving.

The stuff he mentioned is mostly very objective though and could be proved if needed.

 

[Mai72]

I'm surprised the employer was so truthful about his past employee. He just opened himself up to a lawsuit. Most employers today will refrain from saying anything bad because they fear that they may be sued. He should have given the start and end date of this employee and that's it.

I know it's not the correct thing to do. It's reality and we live in a litigious society where people will sue over anything.

 

[MrDudeMan]

He just opened himself up to a lawsuit.

I don't know why people keep saying this. If everything he said is true, then he's completely safe. I've been there, done that, and I'm telling you about it. People can sue if they want, but if you say truthful things that can be proved, they won't have a leg to stand on. If you have a single performance review that's signed by the employee stating all of the things you want to say for a reference, you're golden. Even if you don't, other employees who are able to corroborate your story are more than enough.

People always confuse the act of filing a lawsuit with actually winning. You have to lie to lose, so just don't lie and that's it. I've personally been involved with this type of thing directly and indirectly multiple times (I was never the one getting the bad reference) and the shit definitely hit the fan during two of those situations. The idiot who filed the suit even though he knew what they said was true ended up winning zilch and had to pay for legal fees.

 

[veri745]

Surprising. Usually the kiss of death reference is "Mr X was employed here from January 2013 to March 2014" - with nothing else added.

Kiss of death?

I've heard my and other managers say that that's the only thing they're allowed to say to people calling for references.

 

[PowerEngineer]

I was kind of wondering whether to ignore the references, on the basis, that maybe the boss had some sort of personal problem with him.

Maybe? It is so important to hire the right people. You shouldn't be willing to bet on the remote possibility that negative feedback from one of the candidate's own references is somehow wrong. People who do well (subjectively) in interviews aren't necessarily as impressive when actually working in the jobs they get. Never, ever go with your "gut feeling".

I don't know why people keep saying this. If everything he said is true, then he's completely safe.

What you say is technically true, however most people (and companies) aren't going to be happy devoting the time and effort (and possible risks) to prove what they have said is true. The safest and least costly approach is to say nothing negative.

 

[jaedaliu]

Kiss of death?

I've heard my and other managers say that that's the only thing they're allowed to say to people calling for references.

Yeah, my previous manager told me that's all the company allows them to say.

 

[OCGuy]

Make sure that it is legal to use that information. Here in CA, there are rules as far as what a previous employer is allowed to tell me, (but nobody really follows that).

It is very poor business to call a current employer. Although it isn't your fault that the candidate listed them, a quick decision not to hire due to poor judgment is much better than potentially outing him to his current employer, which may force him to quit before being hired somewhere else.

Think about it this way. If your potential new GF called all of your old girlfriends asking about you, the information you get is going to be very skewed.

Now imagine if she called your current GF. :biggrin:

 

[Newell Steamer]

Sounds like Mr. X banged the reference employer's girlfriend.

 

[Insomniator]

I don't understand references... you should be able to figure out if the person is hirable from your own judgement. If they end up sucking, then find someone new. References are unreliable, from people you don't know, and from circumstances/times you have no idea about.

Also, what if its my second real job ever? I put my current/1st employer down as a reference. They did call and my place said good things about me, but that doesn't mean crap.

Credit checks... also a little ridiculous. You don't know what the circumstances are. Yeah, thats 'not your problem' but I wouldn't put a lot of weight to that if they were otherwise good candidates.

 

[BUTCH1]

I think the lack of references stems from a fear of lawsuits, if you say Mr X was a good employee and 3 months later he brings a gun to work and shoots up the place you could be sued for giving him a positive reference. Yea, total BS, how could the 1st Co. have known the guy would snap?, doesn't matter these days, lawsuits get filed anyway over the stupidest things you could imagine. One dude flew his Cessna into the side of a mountain, the plane exploded on impact and he died, toxicology reports revealed he had 3X the legal limit for DRIVING a car, never mind operating an aircraft but the family got a lawyer and sued Cessna anyway, when you buy a plane a lot of the price includes $$ the manufacturer has to set aside for anticipated lawsuits.

 

[OCGuy]

I think the lack of references stems from a fear of lawsuits, if you say Mr X was a good employee and 3 months later he brings a gun to work and shoots up the place you could be sued for giving him a positive reference. Yea, total BS, how could the 1st Co. have known the guy would snap?, doesn't matter these days, lawsuits get filed anyway over the stupidest things you could imagine. One dude flew his Cessna into the side of a mountain, the plane exploded on impact and he died, toxicology reports revealed he had 3X the legal limit for DRIVING a car, never mind operating an aircraft but the family got a lawyer and sued Cessna anyway, when you buy a plane a lot of the price includes $$ the manufacturer has to set aside for anticipated lawsuits.

No.

 

[OCGuy]

I don't understand references... you should be able to figure out if the person is hirable from your own judgement. If they end up sucking, then find someone new. References are unreliable, from people you don't know, and from circumstances/times you have no idea about.

Also, what if its my second real job ever? I put my current/1st employer down as a reference. They did call and my place said good things about me, but that doesn't mean crap.

Credit checks... also a little ridiculous. You don't know what the circumstances are. Yeah, thats 'not your problem' but I wouldn't put a lot of weight to that if they were otherwise good candidates.

References are important to verify what the candidate puts down on their resume as far as experience level. You would be amazed at how many people "spruce up" their resume by claiming they held a position higher than they really did.

If someone tells me they were a supervisor, I like to see at least one employee that worked for them. Not to find out if the employee liked him or thought he was a good supervisor, but to confirm that they were in fact reporting to my candidate.

Also I think some are confusing references with previous employer contact information. To verify someone was employed, you usually get connected to their HR. The "References" list usually contains names of former managers, co-workers, clients, etc.

 

[Phoenix86]

Some companies direct their employees to not give references at all. They're only allowed to answer simple questions about whether or not the person worked there and the time period. Anything else must be directed to human resources.

There are basically three questions you are "allowed" to answer. Start date, end date, rehire status.

Answering anything outside those questions can cause legal action, which is why many companies have this type of policy.

Reading between the lines you can still get all the information needed with that last question. Rehire status=yes=good employee. Rehire status=no=bad employee. You just can't get the details as to why.

edit: forgot about the question of job title, that's kosher.

 

[PenguinPower]

Skipping references is a truly horrible idea. I've been tempted to skip them in the past as well and I'm always extremely glad I didn't. I also run a credit check on people I want to hire because inability to handle money tells me they're either secretly stupid or too irresponsible to be worth the risk. So far, I've hired 18 people and never had a dud, so I believe my methodology works pretty well.

Edit: Also, the bad reference in this case sounded very legit and not at all like a personal problem, at least to me. I've had people say much, much worse about potential candidates. Usually if the reference is bad, I don't even care how true it is. There are usually ways to smooth things over well enough to have the person not rip you to shreds. If that fails, you should be smart enough not to list them as a reference or figure out how to use someone else. Either way, it makes no difference to me because if I get the slightest sense that you're a problem, I'm moving on to another candidate. I don't have time for that shit.

Hope you are either hiring for a financial institution, executive or management personnel, or for positions that work with contracts with defense, intelligence, national security, or space agencies of the federal government...otherwise what you are doing is illegal.

 

[MustISO]

I only put down someone who would give me an excellent reference. There's no chance I'm going to use my current boss even though he would give me a great reference. There's always a chance they would say something bad because they were pissed I was leaving.

I always thought you could only answer a few questions like how long they worked with you, what their role was, etc. From what I've read online (who knows how true it is) you can say anything that is true.