Hillary should drop out

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: Vic
Will Clinton's ex-supporters switch en masse to McCain? Will they become McCain's biggest following?

it's a tough choice for me that I'll have to do some long, hard thinking about.

I agree with Obama on most issues, but what I don't agree with him with is a pretty major issue -- Iraq.

at least I could trust that Hillary was lying and being disingenuous when she talked about quick withdraws, Obama might actually mean it.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic
Will Clinton's ex-supporters switch en masse to McCain? Will they become McCain's biggest following?

I hope this will not be the problem it appears to be now.

I mean, can the Democrats really fuck up this bad, and allow the Republicans 4 more years in the white house?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues

Originally posted by: RY62
As another Clinton supporter, I'll admit that she's finished but I hope she fights on. For myself, it was never about being for her, it was about being against Obama and I can continue being against him whether she's in or out.

It's hard to believe that, after voting Democrat for 28 years, tonight I'd rather be a Republican.

the democratic party is most likely better off without you and the entire clinton machine

The Clinton machine is the reason the Democratic party has the edge on the economy.
Take out the Clinton years, and you have Jimmy Carter and LBJ's war on poverty debacle. Obama is following in those footsteps, with predictable results.

the clinton machine is as good as the rove style of politics they decided to turn to. their thirst for power after having it has corrupted them beyond redemption. tehse arent your parents clintons.

good riddance to these pandering clintons.

we really need a multiparty system, where the ron pauls could have some clout with representatives in the senate and congress, where the greens had some, when people would really have to build coalitions and compromise.

but for now, we got dems and repubs - at least the better dem won.

You seem to be more interested in the political process than the results.
Politics isn't pretty if you want to be effective. I don't think Obama has the stomach, he is more interested in his image.

the fact that obama has made it this far with minimal negative campaigning and not getting dirty and nasty like clinton/rove and her 'he isnt a muslim as far as I know' type rhetoric, or playing the politics of fear, and is making it this far this strong should tell you something.
since you dont like it, you belong voting for McSame.

OK, what does his campaign style tell me about his positions on the issues? Absolutely nothing. I can see he is a good advocate, but I don't know what the hell he is advocating aside from himself becoming president.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

I've read it, it's all fluff.

This is his economic plan:

Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief

Obama will cut income taxes by $1,000 for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay.

* Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.

How is he going to pay for this? Oh wait, we can't say, because that doesn't fit with the whole hope and change thing. You have to be honest about this, and Obama sticks to fluff when push comes to shove.

* Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.

Peanuts, and boo hoo, it will save me 1 hr a year. Great "plan." Again, fluff and soundbytes, but no substance. He hits all the talking points without coming up with a coherent economic policy what so ever.

you are just like your candidate hilary, shady as fuck and dishonest.

you quoted barely a portion of his economics plan and tried to present as THE economic plan he has.

the only thing fluff here is any sense of integrity you may have had.

go vote repub, they need some of the dirty rabid clinton/rove-ites to have a prayer in the fall.

I can keep going, the rest of it is fluff too. I will hold my nose and go vote repub, and yes I am a rabid Clintonite.

 

[JSt0rm]

do we really need to quote the entire thread?

 

[OREOSpeedwagon]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Again, I find it very strange that the people who support Clinton are saying that they want to go vote for someone who opposes nearly every major policy position she has on contentious issues. What's also interesting is that your preferred candidate will shortly be endorsing Obama after he wins the nomination, and so you will ignore both the policy positions and the recommendations of the person you wanted to win the presidency.

I mean everyone's free to vote how they want, it just seems like a bizarre way to evaluate candidates.

Agreed... I'm not sure if I would vote in the general if Hillary was the nominee, but I sure wouldn't vote for McCain. Seriously think about if you really want Bush 2.0

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Again, I find it very strange that the people who support Clinton are saying that they want to go vote for someone who opposes nearly every major policy position she has on contentious issues. What's also interesting is that your preferred candidate will shortly be endorsing Obama after he wins the nomination, and so you will ignore both the policy positions and the recommendations of the person you wanted to win the presidency.

I mean everyone's free to vote how they want, it just seems like a bizarre way to evaluate candidates.

Agreed...

If we had a Republican congress, I would be for Obama over McCain.
But as it stands now, Gridlock > Obama + Democrat Congress.
Obama is a liberal activist, and I really don't trust the Democrat Congress to provide effective checks and balances on him. We have seen for 6 years the damage that single party control with an activist president can do.

 

[OREOSpeedwagon]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Again, I find it very strange that the people who support Clinton are saying that they want to go vote for someone who opposes nearly every major policy position she has on contentious issues. What's also interesting is that your preferred candidate will shortly be endorsing Obama after he wins the nomination, and so you will ignore both the policy positions and the recommendations of the person you wanted to win the presidency.

I mean everyone's free to vote how they want, it just seems like a bizarre way to evaluate candidates.

Agreed...

If we had a Republican congress, I would be for Obama over McCain.
But as it stands now, Gridlock > Obama + Democrat Congress.
Obama is a liberal activist, and I really don't trust the Democrat Congress to provide effective checks and balances on him. We have seen for 6 years the damage that single party control with an activist president can do.

It would allow him to implement his plans for change more easily with a Democratic Congress. If you are a Hillary supporter, I don't see why your decision would change because their platform is essentially the same. I guess it just comes down to whether or not you trust the candidate. Personally, I wouldn't have trusted Bush to walk my dog, but I believe Obama is a sincere candidate who really cares about the American people and making America a better place.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Again, I find it very strange that the people who support Clinton are saying that they want to go vote for someone who opposes nearly every major policy position she has on contentious issues. What's also interesting is that your preferred candidate will shortly be endorsing Obama after he wins the nomination, and so you will ignore both the policy positions and the recommendations of the person you wanted to win the presidency.

I mean everyone's free to vote how they want, it just seems like a bizarre way to evaluate candidates.

Agreed...

If we had a Republican congress, I would be for Obama over McCain.
But as it stands now, Gridlock > Obama + Democrat Congress.
Obama is a liberal activist, and I really don't trust the Democrat Congress to provide effective checks and balances on him. We have seen for 6 years the damage that single party control with an activist president can do.

It would allow him to implement his plans for change more easily with a Democratic Congress. If you are a Hillary supporter, I don't see why your decision would change because their platform is essentially the same. I guess it just comes down to whether or not you trust the candidate. Personally, I wouldn't have trusted Bush to walk my dog, but I believe Obama is a sincere candidate who really cares about the American people and making America a better place.

Hillary is a moderate on the issues though. She is polarizing politically, but if you look at the issues, she, like Bill, is already moderate and pragmatic. Obama is a liberal activist. I am sure he means well and is sincere, but so was Jimmy Carter.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RY62
As another Clinton supporter, I'll admit that she's finished but I hope she fights on. For myself, it was never about being for her, it was about being against Obama and I can continue being against him whether she's in or out.

It's hard to believe that, after voting Democrat for 28 years, tonight I'd rather be a Republican.

You and me both. McCain checked by a Democrat Congress > Obama and his hope dope new age nonsense.

I'm afraid McCain and the Democrat Congress will undermine us by expanding government in the same exact ways an unchecked Obama would.

 

[MadRat]

McCain is a loose cannon. No, really. /kablooey

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RY62
As another Clinton supporter, I'll admit that she's finished but I hope she fights on. For myself, it was never about being for her, it was about being against Obama and I can continue being against him whether she's in or out.

It's hard to believe that, after voting Democrat for 28 years, tonight I'd rather be a Republican.

You and me both. McCain checked by a Democrat Congress > Obama and his hope dope new age nonsense.

I'm afraid McCain and the Democrat Congress will undermine us by expanding government in the same exact ways an unchecked Obama would.

Well, that's the other thing, McCain could turn out a lot more liberal than the way his current pandering to the GOP base suggests. I really don't think people of his age change their stripes.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RY62
As another Clinton supporter, I'll admit that she's finished but I hope she fights on. For myself, it was never about being for her, it was about being against Obama and I can continue being against him whether she's in or out.

It's hard to believe that, after voting Democrat for 28 years, tonight I'd rather be a Republican.

You and me both. McCain checked by a Democrat Congress > Obama and his hope dope new age nonsense.

Checked like how Bush has been checked? Haha You guys are such bitter losers. Didn't you ever read Aesop's fable about the sour grapes?

I mean everyone's free to vote how they want, it just seems like a bizarre way to evaluate candidates.

They are just being cry babies. It doesn't take a phd in psychology to know that when push comes to shove they will actually vote for Obama. These polls with 70% of hillary supporters saying they won't hold no more meaning than a drunk on new year's eve saying that next year is the one they lose weight, pay off their debt, etc. Her supporters will vote for Obama.

Hillary is a moderate on the issues though. She is polarizing politically, but if you look at the issues, she, like Bill, is already moderate and pragmatic.

Wtf, she is basically a hardcore socialist with beligerent foreign policy. Her ideas on how to take yet more of my money to throw at the indolent lower classes are insane. Hardly merits argument now, though, as her campaign is caput.

 

[rockyct]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RY62
As another Clinton supporter, I'll admit that she's finished but I hope she fights on. For myself, it was never about being for her, it was about being against Obama and I can continue being against him whether she's in or out.

It's hard to believe that, after voting Democrat for 28 years, tonight I'd rather be a Republican.

You and me both. McCain checked by a Democrat Congress > Obama and his hope dope new age nonsense.

I'm afraid McCain and the Democrat Congress will undermine us by expanding government in the same exact ways an unchecked Obama would.

Well, that's the other thing, McCain could turn out a lot more liberal than the way his current pandering to the GOP base suggests. I really don't think people of his age change their stripes.

McCain is not liberal, he just holds some views that don't fit in with the standard definition of a Republican.

The biggest reason why the Democrats cannot let McCain win is because of the court appointees. The Supreme court is tilted pretty conservative right now and we cannot let them stack the deck anymore. I'm not talking about stacking the deck for liberals, I just want some balance back into it. There are only two members of the court appointed by a Democrat right now. Clinton: 2, W: 2, HW: 2, Reagan: 2, Ford: 1(although his appointee is more liberal, but he's also 88).

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
Will Clinton's ex-supporters switch en masse to McCain? Will they become McCain's biggest following?

I hope this will not be the problem it appears to be now.

I mean, can the Democrats really fuck up this bad, and allow the Republicans 4 more years in the white house?

One of the speakingheads last night was talking about poll results and said the number of clinton peeps voting mccain vice BHO was up to about 39%. So you could say a vote for BHO is a vote for Mccain.

 

[bl4ckfl4g]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
Will Clinton's ex-supporters switch en masse to McCain? Will they become McCain's biggest following?

I hope this will not be the problem it appears to be now.

I mean, can the Democrats really fuck up this bad, and allow the Republicans 4 more years in the white house?

One of the speakingheads last night was talking about poll results and said the number of clinton peeps voting mccain vice BHO was up to about 39%. So you could say a vote for BHO is a vote for Mccain.

and it was basically exacty the same percentages when asking bho people if they would vote mccain instead of clinton.


I was going to vote McCain over clinton is she got the nom and I still might have but I don't think I gotta worry about it now.

Biggest prob with McCain is that his VP will be very conservative and will be President within the next 2 or 3 years if McCain is elected.

 

[Lemon law]

I quite frankly see this thread as mainly GOP masturbation. As they try to convince themselves that the losing democratic candidate and their supporters will be in such snit that they will vote for McCain. Which may be true in a few cases, but false in the overwhelming majority of cases. But that GOP dream dies hard and why should anyone forcefully yank those straws the GOP delusional cling to.

Lets face the facts, Obama is now unstoppable. He just won North Carolina by 14 points which is a bigger margin than the 10 points Hillary took Pennsylvania with. Obama lost Indiana very small, only 2 points, but that is enough to just keep Hillary in.

But May 6 still marks the point of the democratic end game. And right now Hillary math is almost impossible. With only 217 elected delegates left to win and 270 supers still on the fence, Hillary needs almost 70% of that set. With Indiana and
NC supers now free to declare, its very possible that enough of the remaining 270 supers will SOON declare, leaving Hillary math probably looking far worse. The lions share of the elected delegates will be gone after West Virgina in a week and Oregon and Kentucky in two weeks.

I now look for the supers to step in and end it very soon. May 21 may be the end of the line for Hillary because she can't beat Obama by a 70 30 split. And if any of her semi pledged supers defect, its really curtains for her. And soon nearly every democratic leader will be privately calling on Hillary to throw in the towel. And now Hillary just needs that face saving moment to do so. It can't be West Virginia on May 13 because its too small. But Hillary will need to win both Kentucky and Oregon huge on May 20. She will likely win Kentucky but not with the 70 30 needed. And if Obama gets a raw win in Oregon which is likely, its all over.

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh, Please- the vast majority of Dems will rally to whoever wins the nomination, so long as it's won fairly, comments like those from RY62 and Senseamp not withstanding.

It's time to put principles ahead of personalities, policy ahead of politics. Anybody who thinks that a McCain presidency won't be more of the same, an extension of Bush/ Neocon/ Hyper-Conservative policy has rocks in their head. No Democrat worthy of the label will vote for that.

Hillary supporters demean themselves with this "I'll take my ball and go home if we don't get to pick the team captain" childishness. Grow Up. Get Real. Smell the Coffee.

As a Democrat, I'd back Hillary if she won the nomination, and I think her champions need to take the same POV wrt Obama. We need the Whitehouse and the Congress to clean up the rightwing filth that's washed up on the body politic in this country, and we'll have to stand together on our principles to do that.

 

[lupi]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Oh, Please- the vast majority of Dems will rally to whoever wins the nomination, so long as it's won fairly, comments like those from RY62 and Senseamp not withstanding.

It's time to put principles ahead of personalities, policy ahead of politics. Anybody who thinks that a McCain presidency won't be more of the same, an extension of Bush/ Neocon/ Hyper-Conservative policy has rocks in their head. No Democrat worthy of the label will vote for that.

Hillary supporters demean themselves with this "I'll take my ball and go home if we don't get to pick the team captain" childishness. Grow Up. Get Real. Smell the Coffee.

As a Democrat, I'd back Hillary if she won the nomination, and I think her champions need to take the same POV wrt Obama. We need the Whitehouse and the Congress to clean up the rightwing filth that's washed up on the body politic in this country, and we'll have to stand together on our principles to do that.

That's the spirit we like to hear!


What happened the last time there was this much upheaval about the GOP, Jimmy Obama was elected. How'd that turn out; so well it only took several landslide victories for the country to remember there was a democratic party.

 

[JJChicken]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: OREOSpeedwagon

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Again, I find it very strange that the people who support Clinton are saying that they want to go vote for someone who opposes nearly every major policy position she has on contentious issues. What's also interesting is that your preferred candidate will shortly be endorsing Obama after he wins the nomination, and so you will ignore both the policy positions and the recommendations of the person you wanted to win the presidency.

I mean everyone's free to vote how they want, it just seems like a bizarre way to evaluate candidates.

Agreed...

If we had a Republican congress, I would be for Obama over McCain.
But as it stands now, Gridlock > Obama + Democrat Congress.
Obama is a liberal activist, and I really don't trust the Democrat Congress to provide effective checks and balances on him. We have seen for 6 years the damage that single party control with an activist president can do.

It would allow him to implement his plans for change more easily with a Democratic Congress. If you are a Hillary supporter, I don't see why your decision would change because their platform is essentially the same. I guess it just comes down to whether or not you trust the candidate. Personally, I wouldn't have trusted Bush to walk my dog, but I believe Obama is a sincere candidate who really cares about the American people and making America a better place.

Hillary is a moderate on the issues though. She is polarizing politically, but if you look at the issues, she, like Bill, is already moderate and pragmatic. Obama is a liberal activist. I am sure he means well and is sincere, but so was Jimmy Carter.

Senseamp, I know you mean well and this clinton-obama rift has got both sides mad at each other. Just note that both clinton and obama have very similar policy positions and moreover, the president's role is to LEAD and he will have political advisors who will dish out the policies. I hope you give Obama a chance (and even give McCain a chance) and just try to view his message objectively and study what he really stands for. As long as you make an informed decision, your vote was valuable (regardless of who you vote for). But just voting for one party or another without thinking about how the issues affect you and your family and the nation, thats wasting a vote.

This goes for all you. It's time to pull back some of the sharp attacks against each other. Obama doesn't stand for vilifying his opponents, and if you understand the man, then as a supporter you shouldn't either.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues

Originally posted by: RY62
As another Clinton supporter, I'll admit that she's finished but I hope she fights on. For myself, it was never about being for her, it was about being against Obama and I can continue being against him whether she's in or out.

It's hard to believe that, after voting Democrat for 28 years, tonight I'd rather be a Republican.

the democratic party is most likely better off without you and the entire clinton machine

Yeah, that makes sense. As much sense as all of the Obamabots who say they'll vote for McCain if Obama doesn't get the nomination.

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: lupi

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Oh, Please- the vast majority of Dems will rally to whoever wins the nomination, so long as it's won fairly, comments like those from RY62 and Senseamp not withstanding.

It's time to put principles ahead of personalities, policy ahead of politics. Anybody who thinks that a McCain presidency won't be more of the same, an extension of Bush/ Neocon/ Hyper-Conservative policy has rocks in their head. No Democrat worthy of the label will vote for that.

Hillary supporters demean themselves with this "I'll take my ball and go home if we don't get to pick the team captain" childishness. Grow Up. Get Real. Smell the Coffee.

As a Democrat, I'd back Hillary if she won the nomination, and I think her champions need to take the same POV wrt Obama. We need the Whitehouse and the Congress to clean up the rightwing filth that's washed up on the body politic in this country, and we'll have to stand together on our principles to do that.

That's the spirit we like to hear!


What happened the last time there was this much upheaval about the GOP, Jimmy Obama was elected. How'd that turn out; so well it only took several landslide victories for the country to remember there was a democratic party.

You seem to have forgotten the "It's the Economy, Stupid!" era, and the fact that Perot's candidacy was as much or more about the way repubs do business than the way Dems have.

At least Dems learn- when you let the rich get a bigger slice of the pie, everybody else gets less. pretty simple math. So you have to cover that up with big deficits. and when you start wars on fearmongering and unrealistic pollyanna predictions of victory, you get stuck to the tarbaby. Not to mention what happens when you pander to big oil, big pharma, and the fundie fringe...

If you're one of the few, the proud, the lucky or the stupid who think the Bush presidency is the neatest thing since sliced bread, then vote McSame, for more of the same- he won't disappoint, bet on that. Like GWB, he won't have any more influence on the rightwing money machine behind the GOP than any other cardboard cutout they choose to stand up...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
Will Clinton's ex-supporters switch en masse to McCain? Will they become McCain's biggest following?

I hope this will not be the problem it appears to be now.

I mean, can the Democrats really fuck up this bad, and allow the Republicans 4 more years in the white house?

It's not a problem, it's a joke. The big Republican secret about McCain is that they hate his guts.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
Will Clinton's ex-supporters switch en masse to McCain? Will they become McCain's biggest following?

I hope this will not be the problem it appears to be now.

I mean, can the Democrats really fuck up this bad, and allow the Republicans 4 more years in the white house?

It's not a problem, it's a joke. The big Republican secret about McCain is that they hate his guts.

Do Republicans hate McCain more than Hillary shills hate Obama?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Vic
Will Clinton's ex-supporters switch en masse to McCain? Will they become McCain's biggest following?

I hope this will not be the problem it appears to be now.

I mean, can the Democrats really fuck up this bad, and allow the Republicans 4 more years in the white house?

It's not a problem, it's a joke. The big Republican secret about McCain is that they hate his guts.

So, it's not FUD that McCain is actually a maverick? What do they disagree with him on that makes them not dislike but hate him?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Again, I find it very strange that the people who support Clinton are saying that they want to go vote for someone who opposes nearly every major policy position she has on contentious issues. What's also interesting is that your preferred candidate will shortly be endorsing Obama after he wins the nomination, and so you will ignore both the policy positions and the recommendations of the person you wanted to win the presidency.

I mean everyone's free to vote how they want, it just seems like a bizarre way to evaluate candidates.

Vote for McCain is not a vote for his stands, it's a vote for gridlock, which has its merits.
I mean we got gridlock here in CA with Arnold getting elected, and it sure as hell has been better for the Democrat party here than Gray Davis being governor.
A vote for Obama is most likely, and we don't know for sure because he doesn't really stand up for any issues, a vote for Carter 2.0.

So you're okay with the war continuing for the entirety of McCain's presidency? Again, this is bizarre that you would vote to elect someone who stands against most of the things you believe in with the vain hopes that a Democratic congress would oppose him enough (where there is very limited evidence to their effectiveness in doing that) instead of electing someone who shares nearly every single value your candidate does.

I still do not understand why you would not want gridlock with Hillary, as she and Obama have almost the same platforms. Why are you afraid of Obama implementing his, but not Hillary implementing hers when they are IDENTICAL?