Hillary says it's time to eliminate the Electoral College

[ivwshane]

Its even worse that that. I consider the other big problem to be that battleground states are the only ones that are pandered to. States that are considered in the bag get nothing. They are basically irrelevant in the election. This gives certain states way the hell more influence in elections than others. Of course if the electoral college goes away, none of the states with small populations would ever be important again and I suppose that could be considered bad by them. Kind of sabotaged my own argument a bit there I guess.

Negative. The whole point of the senate is to give smaller states more legislative representation. Removing the EC would definitely give larger states, or more precisely, larger population areas more representation because politicians would pander to those areas and I don't see how that's a negative.

 

[trenchfoot]

You know who else was for getting rid of the EC ? The same guy who now loves it since he won, Drumpf.

Slam dunk brah. :Thumbsup:

 

[pmv]

That's a bit like asking, what's the difference between the category "black people in the UK" and the category "England." A state is more than a group of people. They're also sovereign governments, even if that sovereignty is shared.

Actually, that's a perfectly reasonable answer.

But Scotland has been teetering on the brink of independence for some time now (I think Scottish independence has a lot of logic to it, myself, it would at least solve the dilemma of whether it should get special treatment and over-representation or face being overwhelmed by English voters), and the constituent nations of the UK are just that - nations.

Unless there's a serious possibility of US states going their own way and the country breaking-up, I would question the case for treating them as if they were actual nations. I just don't see that Nevada, say, has such a meaningful independent identity that it needs to be recognised as a collective in that way. US states seem more like an equivalent to English counties.

 

[justoh]

Actually, that's a perfectly reasonable answer.

Unless there's a serious possibility of US states going their own way and the country breaking-up, I would question the case for treating them as if they were actual nations. I just don't see that Nevada, say, has such a meaningful independent identity that it needs to be recognised as a collective in that way. US states seem more like an equivalent to English counties.

The framers felt differently, with the principle of federalism intentionally and explicitly a critical feature of the political system, with the desire that the states themselves be important entities in the process. I recall the weight given to representatives being equal/fair among the various states, but every state also has two senators, so it's a fair distribution + 2. Alaska only has 1 vote based on its representation in the US house of representatives, plus 2 for their senators, ending up with 200% more voting power than if it was just population based (or at least based on its representation in the house, if not quite fair). The +2 votes in California is only 2 out of the 55.

So if I have that right, maybe they could just remove those 2 senatorially derived votes, as a better solution than abolishing the college altogether, since that would mean candidates campaigning, pandering to, and generally giving a shit only about cities/large centers of population.

As for counties v states. Counties are just geographical areas carved out of a sovereign entity, with powers delegated. The states began life as sovereign entities, whose power isn't delegated but instead limited, by the federal govt, to the extent that the US constitution (which they've signed on to) either explicitly mentions or is interpreted to mean by the US judiciary.

#MAGA

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes. Every time a small racially motivated group causes an American Statue to be removed.

Yeh, the symbols of "Southern Heritage" raised by White Supremacists to glorify treason, slavery & Jim Crow.. They're municipal property so the people who live there can melt them down to make commemorative buckles of the march on Selma or recast them as statues of Frederick Douglass if they want.

While it is possible to get the EC vote and not the popular vote, it's not that common. It's only happened 4 times in our history. Get over it snowflakes.

Correct. The EC yields anomalous results & that's the part you like. Trump is President by virtue of a glitch in the system, not the Will of the People. The sooner his snowflake supporters admit that they're not the majority & lack the moral authority to govern as if they were the better off we'll all be.

 

[fskimospy]

So if I have that right, maybe they could just remove those 2 senatorially derived votes, as a better solution than abolishing the college altogether, since that would mean candidates campaigning, pandering to, and generally giving a shit only about cities/large centers of population.

Maybe you can explain why 'only' (which is almost certainly wrong) giving a shit about places where all the people live is not preferable to only giving a shit about a handful of states that happen to be swing votes?

 

[bshole]

I still don't understand why collective groups, as opposed to individuals, are considered to require representation _only_ when those groups are populations of states. Why is there not the same concern about whether racial minorities, or the disabled, or other minority collective groups that are geographically dispersed will ever be important in an election?

If you don't want one-person-one-vote because it would make small states unimportant, why not worry about what other groups it makes unimportant? What's so special about geography as opposed to other forms of common interest and identity?

Wouldn't that open the door for powerful states to fuck over smaller states?.... kind of like Illinois is always fucking with Wisconsin. Those dirty fuckers send a constant stream of garbage trucks filled with their waste to dump in our state. It really pisses me off.

 

[pmv]

Wouldn't that open the door for powerful states to fuck over smaller states?.... kind of like Illinois is always fucking with Wisconsin. Those dirty fuckers send a constant stream of garbage trucks filled with their waste to dump in our state. It really pisses me off.

Having thought about it, I have concluded the only answer is to scrap all your existing states and redraw them on the basis of equal populations. Glad to have solved that one for you!

The whole thing relates to my ambivalence about the EU, really. American pro-EU friends have argued that bigger is always better, and that 'coming together' is 'more progressive' than remaining separate. But the US itself demonstrates a problem with that - if the only way of bringing and keeping sub-nation-level entities together is to give the smaller ones disproportionate power, and they then use that power to impose a political ideology on the majority that the majority don't want...then maybe it's better to stay separate?

Either become truly one nation, with one-person-one-vote, or stay as properly independent nations.

Half-way-houses always run into problems, which is what seems to be the ongoing problem with the EU, it being stuck in the no-mans-land of neither a nation nor a collection of independent nations.

 

[justoh]

Maybe you can explain why 'only' (which is almost certainly wrong) giving a shit about places where all the people live is not preferable to only giving a shit about a handful of states that happen to be swing votes?

It's the difference between taking votes for granted and entirely ignoring them. I think. Maybe. What was the question again?

 

[Jhhnn]

Wouldn't that open the door for powerful states to fuck over smaller states?.... kind of like Illinois is always fucking with Wisconsin. Those dirty fuckers send a constant stream of garbage trucks filled with their waste to dump in our state. It really pisses me off.

Dunno about your garbage issue but it obviously wouldn't occur w/o permission of your state.

I do know that the interests of less populous states are well taken care of in the US Senate. Two Senators from Wyoming have as much say as two Senators from California. 585K people have as much say in the Senate as 39M people.

 

[fskimospy]

It's the difference between taking votes for granted and entirely ignoring them. I think. Maybe. What was the question again?

In our current system the vast majority of the states are effectively ignored/taken for granted and almost all the attention is paid to a handful of swing states. Why is this better than a popular vote system that focuses on where all the people live? It seems a system that focused on where the majority of America actually lives as opposed to a small fraction of it would be an extremely large improvement.

 

[shortylickens]

I've gone over this whole thread, and much like every other place in my life, I could not find one person who actually gives a solid reason for keeping the electoral college,

I've seen plenty of people explain why THEY like it, why its good for them. But no can tell me why its good for America.

 

[fskimospy]

I've gone over this whole thread, and much like every other place in my life, I could not find one person who actually gives a solid reason for keeping the electoral college,

I've seen plenty of people explain why THEY like it, why its good for them. But no can tell me why its good for America.

The closest I've ever seen to a cogent argument for keeping it is that politicians would focus on population centers to the detriment of rural areas.

Of course to me having politicians focus on the areas where the vast majority of the citizens they are supposed to serve live is a feature, not a bug.

 

[justoh]

In our current system the vast majority of the states are effectively ignored/taken for granted and almost all the attention is paid to a handful of swing states. Why is this better than a popular vote system that focuses on where all the people live? It seems a system that focused on where the majority of America actually lives as opposed to a small fraction of it would be an extremely large improvement.

Incorrect. You forgot to carry the one.

 

[Jhhnn]

I've gone over this whole thread, and much like every other place in my life, I could not find one person who actually gives a solid reason for keeping the electoral college,

I've seen plenty of people explain why THEY like it, why its good for them. But no can tell me why its good for America.

I think it's impossible to change at the black letter Constitutional level. That why I favor the national popular vote compact which would accomplish the same end in a different way.

 

[shortylickens]

The closest I've ever seen to a cogent argument for keeping it is that politicians would focus on population centers to the detriment of rural areas.

Of course to me having politicians focus on the areas where the vast majority of the citizens they are supposed to serve live is a feature, not a bug.

Yeah but the last election just proved politicians can focus on rural areas AND win, so obviously the electoral college doesnt prevent that.

 

[fskimospy]

Incorrect. You forgot to carry the one.

I've invited you to explain why several times now, so whenever you're ready feel free.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah but the last election just proved politicians can focus on rural areas AND win, so obviously the electoral college doesnt prevent that.

Oh I meant politicians wouldn't care about rural areas WITHOUT the electoral college. As someone who thinks politicians should focus on voters and not dirt, this is a plus.

 

[Alpha One Seven]

Dunno about your garbage issue but it obviously wouldn't occur w/o permission of your state.

I do know that the interests of less populous states are well taken care of in the US Senate. Two Senators from Wyoming have as much say as two Senators from California. 585K people have as much say in the Senate as 39M people.

Except that the senators never vote the way the constituents want, they vote the way that pads their bank accounts the most, it's votes to the highest bidder.

 

[Jhhnn]

Except that the senators never vote the way the constituents want, they vote the way that pads their bank accounts the most, it's votes to the highest bidder.

Bullshit. They keep getting re-elected, don't they?

 

[bshole]

Dunno about your garbage issue but it obviously wouldn't occur w/o permission of your state.

I do know that the interests of less populous states are well taken care of in the US Senate. Two Senators from Wyoming have as much say as two Senators from California. 585K people have as much say in the Senate as 39M people.

Outstanding point.

 

[Alpha One Seven]

Bullshit. They keep getting re-elected, don't they?

Some people feel that the devil you know is better than one you don't know. Simple human nature.

 

[sdifox]

Wouldn't that open the door for powerful states to fuck over smaller states?.... kind of like Illinois is always fucking with Wisconsin. Those dirty fuckers send a constant stream of garbage trucks filled with their waste to dump in our state. It really pisses me off.

Free market economy?

 

[Victorian Gray]

How dare she help poor people around the world! It's shameful!

He always writes that shit as if the Clintons were personally pocketing the foundation money. Sad.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

I've gone over this whole thread, and much like every other place in my life, I could not find one person who actually gives a solid reason for keeping the electoral college,

I've seen plenty of people explain why THEY like it, why its good for them. But no can tell me why its good for America.

The best reason for keeping the Electoral College is sitting in the White House right now which really pisses off our political elites. The second best reason is how much it pisses of our political elites. The third best reason is that helps to distribute power to smaller and less populated States, something else that really, really pisses off the political elites.
If you don't like it, change it legally. There's a pathway for it.
http://uselectionatlas.org/INFORMATION/INFORMATION/electcollege_history.php