Hillary informs Santorum of the obvious

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic
Exactly what is so wrong with the family and so great about the village? Oh, oh... I know. Families are real and villages are a fictional creation.


edit: Link this to my arguments against communism (if you want). Many people think the problem with the "communist ideal" is that it is unnatural, i.e. that it goes against human nature. That is wrong. The problem is that it goes against physcial reality, i.e. not just human nature but contrary to the known scientific make-up of the physical universe and nature's laws as we know them to exist on earth. Case in point. Families have a real, physical existence. Villages are a work of fiction, i.e. something we thought up amongst ourselves.

Jeepers, I would have thought that the village refers to the society in which kids grow up. I know how wonderful it would be to have a great Ma and Pa and grow up among psychopathic greedy killer apes. I'd just skip down the street laughing my ass off and singing, 'Ain't I the greatest, cause Ma and Pa say so, yes my Ma and Pa say so. You can take your drugs and crime and stick them up your ass. The village will never touch me.'

Since I live in a metaphorical village that doesn't exist, I want it to be the best metaphorical village it can be.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Jeepers, I would have thought that the village refers to the society in which kids grow up. I know how wonderful it would be to have a great Ma and Pa and grow up among psychopathic greedy killer apes. I'd just skip down the street laughing my ass off and singing, 'Ain't I the greatest, cause Ma and Pa say so, yes my Ma and Pa say so. You can take your drugs and crime and stick them up your ass. The village will never touch me.'

Since I live in a metaphorical village that doesn't exist, I want it to be the best metaphorical village it can be.

Ah, Moonie... when will you put down the pipe and see the world as it is instead of how you want it to be?

There is no "us", Moonie. There is just a vast collection of "I's". If you wish to improve the plurals that we fictionally create, then you must begin with the improvement of the one singularity which you know to be real. In other words, if you want a better village, you will need to start with better families. If you want a better group, you will need to start with better individuals (of which the group is comprised).

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Jeepers, I would have thought that the village refers to the society in which kids grow up. I know how wonderful it would be to have a great Ma and Pa and grow up among psychopathic greedy killer apes. I'd just skip down the street laughing my ass off and singing, 'Ain't I the greatest, cause Ma and Pa say so, yes my Ma and Pa say so. You can take your drugs and crime and stick them up your ass. The village will never touch me.'

Since I live in a metaphorical village that doesn't exist, I want it to be the best metaphorical village it can be.

Ah, Moonie... when will you put down the pipe and see the world as it is instead of how you want it to be?

There is no "us", Moonie. There is just a vast collection of "I's". If you wish to improve the plurals that we fictionally create, then you must begin with the improvement of the one singularity which you know to be real. In other words, if you want a better village, you will need to start with better families. If you want a better group, you will need to start with better individuals (of which the group is comprised).

Moonbeam pwns you all!

Seriously, he understands the world way more than you think, obviously.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Moonbeam pwns you all!

Seriously, he understands the world way more than you think, obviously.

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind while he preaches to me about how I just need to stop hating myself while at the same time calling me a monkey.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Wow some of you are REALLY dense. Anybody with a decent upbringing understands the "village" concept. My wife grew up in Wisconsin and I grew up in North Carolina but we both had communities where people looked out for one another and definitely looked out for the children of others.

In the good old days, your neighbors were cops, your kids' teacher, or a local businessman. These days your neighbor is that arsehole that keeps letting his dog crap in the yard.

Prick Santorum is a moron. He spends most of his days telling lies in the Senate or begging special interests for money. His wife is raising his SIX kids. Daddy just comes for irregular visitation. Granted, she obviously dropped them off somewhere when she did her book signing tour.

Personally, I have very little respect for women that don't work . . . assuming they've got skills. If they don't, who cares where they go or what they do? Granted, I think the same of men (fathers). Now most kids under 5 obviously need some serious home-training but afterwards most kids are in school. It doesn't take a genius (or an idiot from PA) to say that somebody should be home when your kids get home and that Mom and Pop should teach their children well.

I had a patient this week that's one of 4 kids (age 4-9) being homeschooled by dear old mom. She's got 4 young kids so of course she stays at home, while her husband makes mad bank. But I would endorse the converse as well. Unless your kid is on the it, Daddy can do the same job . . . if he wants to do it. She's a stay-at-home that I respect, but I have no reason to endorse the concept as some great achievement. Now a single mom working two jobs that manages to keep her kids out of trouble and reasonably well adjusted . . . that's an achievement.

All it takes to be a good parent is love and patience. All it takes to be a good family is love and understanding. All it takes to be a good village is to give a shyte. When you put it all together, it makes it much easier to raise all children. But only twits politicize such issues.

 

[arsbanned]

We need people to lead on social issues. Her ideas are better than the "keep 'em barefoot and pregnant" crap the right continues to spew, IMO.

 

[Tab]

BabyDoc, so we can I get your copy of "It takes a village and a family" ? ;P

I have respect for anyone who works hard, doesn't matter if they're a stay at home mom.

 

[bamacre]

I think that if Santorum and Clinton are the candidates for 2008, Americans really need to start questioning,..., ah, fvck it. Nevermind.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Jeepers, I would have thought that the village refers to the society in which kids grow up. I know how wonderful it would be to have a great Ma and Pa and grow up among psychopathic greedy killer apes. I'd just skip down the street laughing my ass off and singing, 'Ain't I the greatest, cause Ma and Pa say so, yes my Ma and Pa say so. You can take your drugs and crime and stick them up your ass. The village will never touch me.'

Since I live in a metaphorical village that doesn't exist, I want it to be the best metaphorical village it can be.

Ah, Moonie... when will you put down the pipe and see the world as it is instead of how you want it to be?

There is no "us", Moonie. There is just a vast collection of "I's". If you wish to improve the plurals that we fictionally create, then you must begin with the improvement of the one singularity which you know to be real. In other words, if you want a better village, you will need to start with better families. If you want a better group, you will need to start with better individuals (of which the group is comprised).

I am dedicated to making you better by pointing out that you are a self hating ape. In order to improve you have to be willing to understand the nowhere from which you will have to start. And the first lesson isn't about what 'us' is.

It's not nurture or nature, it's both and you are what you swallow.

 

[MonkeyK]

We are all just "I" apes and it's never just a family. Something that we all need to relearn is how we all are connected; how even though you pay for it, you depend on the baker who bakes your bread.
I've been thinking about adapting some ideas from Buddhism to form a cultural training camp. One aspect of this would include temporarily renouncing all possesions (empty your pockets at the door) and beg for your food for a week. No begging = no food for the day. The hope would be that participants would gain some insight into how we are dependant on each other.

 

[episodic]

I'm right your wrong nyahh nyahh. . .


About as sad as the fool me once speech. . .sheesh.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Jeepers, I would have thought that the village refers to the society in which kids grow up. I know how wonderful it would be to have a great Ma and Pa and grow up among psychopathic greedy killer apes. I'd just skip down the street laughing my ass off and singing, 'Ain't I the greatest, cause Ma and Pa say so, yes my Ma and Pa say so. You can take your drugs and crime and stick them up your ass. The village will never touch me.'

Since I live in a metaphorical village that doesn't exist, I want it to be the best metaphorical village it can be.

Ah, Moonie... when will you put down the pipe and see the world as it is instead of how you want it to be?

There is no "us", Moonie. There is just a vast collection of "I's". If you wish to improve the plurals that we fictionally create, then you must begin with the improvement of the one singularity which you know to be real. In other words, if you want a better village, you will need to start with better families. If you want a better group, you will need to start with better individuals (of which the group is comprised).

I am dedicated to making you better by pointing out that you are a self hating ape. In order to improve you have to be willing to understand the nowhere from which you will have to start. And the first lesson isn't about what 'us' is.

It's not nurture or nature, it's both and you are what you swallow.

HA! Moonie, you shoulda been a preacher with all your "Get Born Again" bull. It sounds exactly the same. And no, I won't be swallowing any of it.

And of course, it's both nurture and nature. I never said any different, nor did I even bring it up.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
We are all just "I" apes and it's never just a family. Something that we all need to relearn is how we all are connected; how even though you pay for it, you depend on the baker who bakes your bread.
I've been thinking about adapting some ideas from Buddhism to form a cultural training camp. One aspect of this would include temporarily renouncing all possesions (empty your pockets at the door) and beg for your food for a week. No begging = no food for the day. The hope would be that participants would gain some insight into how we are dependant on each other.

But the baker bakes my bread because I provide him the means to build his house. It's a fair trade of equals (* 6 billion), not the degradation of begging. There's a crucial difference you ought to consider for your "insight."

Besides, when we are ALL begging, who shall be giving the alms?

 

[racebannon]

I'm still laughing over the appropriate definition of "village".

I'd expect to find a cobbler, and a well with a rope and bucket.

I like Hillary, far better than that puke-filled diaper Santorum. But she should have used some other word than "Village".

Santorum's book should have been entitled, "It Takes a Church". And if that little twit went to my church, I'd punch him in the kidney in the Narthex, immediately following the evening service.

 

[Deudalus]

Santorum wrote that respect for stay-at-home mothers "has been poisoned by a toxic combination of the village elders' war on the traditional family and radical feminism's mysogynistic crusade to make working outside the home the only marker of social value and self-respect."

I gotta agree with the guy. I don't care about the church aspect that I have no doubt he puts in the book, you don't need church to raise children well.

But, you do need a family and you don't need a village. Often times the village is not only unnecessary but a hinderance to raising a child.

Sure if you live in suburbia millionaire neighborhoods like Hillary must, a village would be a good thing. You are surrounded by rich and successful people. A family and no village or a family and village are both fine there.

But possibly the crack whore, the drunk hobo living in a box, and the drug dealer trying to recruit your child into service aren't the best villagers for inner city kids. A family and no village there is optimal.

But in no situation can you raise a child well with no family and only a village. The village is just added fluff. To insinuate that no child has ever been raised well in a rough area because he only had an awesome mom and dad is silly.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: racebannon
I'm still laughing over the appropriate definition of "village".

I'd expect to find a cobbler, and a well with a rope and bucket.

I like Hillary, far better than that puke-filled diaper Santorum. But she should have used some other word than "Village".

Santorum's book should have been entitled, "It Takes a Church". And if that little twit went to my church, I'd punch him in the kidney in the Narthex, immediately following the evening service.

Yeah, don't it make you sick. Thousands of years of human wisdom wrapped up in proverbs and sayings passed down, this one from Africa and damn it had to use the word village. Crap villages are in England. What sophisticated tough American lives in a village.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Why either/or?

There are families, and there are "villages".

I don't know what Hillary refers to, but the village is the community.

Vic, villages are as much a natural consequence of human social interaction as a family is of sex. If that baker decides to be an island, let him build his house then. People band together for their common interests. Where on earth do you find people who do NOT live in communities except for the occasional hermit? No where.

BBD, I have every respect for a woman who does as she chooses as long as she does it well. Raising a family is in no way inferior to being employed. What good is "liberation" if you cannot pick your path and be respected for it.

A family supports the community, and the community supports the family. If either is abusive, it needs to be addressed. If either needs help then that also needs to be tended to.

This is not an adversarial situation, it is a symbiotic one. What is it with people who love to choose conflict over cooperation every time?

 

[RichPLS]

Before the 2001 inauguration of George Bush, he was invited to a get-acquainted tour of the White House. After drinking several glasses of iced tea {remember his history and his 40th birthday pledge to Laura ; )), he asked Bill Clinton if he could use his personal bathroom.
When he entered Clinton's private toilet, he was astonished to see that Clinton had a solid gold urinal. That afternoon, George told his wife, Laura, about the urinal. "Just think," he said, "when I am president, I can have a gold urinal too. But I wouldn't do something that self-indulgent."

Later when Laura had lunch with Hilary at her tour of the White House, she told Hilary how impressed George had been at his discovery the gold urinal.

That evening, when Bill and Hilary were getting ready for bed, Hilary smiled, and said to Bill, "I found out who pissed in your saxophone."

 

[judasmachine]

Have you guys noticed that kids who are homeschooled seem to have certain social problems? You have to be exposed to differant viewpoints, and customs to become a well balanced human being, and not a short-sighted selfish monster. It takes a family and a village. Your teachers, friends, extended family, police officers, store clerks, etc. are a vital part of your social development.

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: Vic
But the baker bakes my bread because I provide him the means to build his house. It's a fair trade of equals (* 6 billion), not the degradation of begging. There's a crucial difference you ought to consider for your "insight."

Besides, when we are ALL begging, who shall be giving the alms?

See that's the problem. We think that because we exchange money that the relationship/dependancy does not exist. We treat money as a stand-in for the relationship. The fact is that we depend on a lot of different types of services and people (a villiage) being available. We use money to enforce that the services exist, but we still depend on them.

Regarding the begging, I do not suggest that everybody in the world beg simultaniously, some people (appearently such as yourself) are not interested in this sort of "insight". I do however think that at any given time a large city can handle the few people who are looking for this sort of "insight". Also, consider that Buddhist monks in Thailand already do this.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: RichPLS
Before the 2001 inauguration of George Bush, he was invited to a get-acquainted tour of the White House. After drinking several glasses of iced tea {remember his history and his 40th birthday pledge to Laura ; )), he asked Bill Clinton if he could use his personal bathroom.
When he entered Clinton's private toilet, he was astonished to see that Clinton had a solid gold urinal. That afternoon, George told his wife, Laura, about the urinal. "Just think," he said, "when I am president, I can have a gold urinal too. But I wouldn't do something that self-indulgent."

Later when Laura had lunch with Hilary at her tour of the White House, she told Hilary how impressed George had been at his discovery the gold urinal.

That evening, when Bill and Hilary were getting ready for bed, Hilary smiled, and said to Bill, "I found out who pissed in your saxophone."

LMAO!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
See that's the problem. We think that because we exchange money that the relationship/dependancy does not exist. We treat money as a stand-in for the relationship. The fact is that we depend on a lot of different types of services and people (a villiage) being available. We use money to enforce that the services exist, but we still depend on them.

Regarding the begging, I do not suggest that everybody in the world beg simultaniously, some people (appearently such as yourself) are not interested in this sort of "insight". I do however think that at any given time a large city can handle the few people who are looking for this sort of "insight". Also, consider that Buddhist monks in Thailand already do this.

There is no problem.

THE single biggest strawman used against capitalism is the "No man is an island" bullsh!t. An absolute joke if it wasn't so painfully ignorant of plain reality. Not for one moment do capitalists believe that any man is an island. What they do believe is the free exchange and barter between free individuals acting as equals. Money is the system that was derived to provide the fairest and most equal of mediums. After all, just how many chickens does it take to make a cow? For this reason, money was created as, prior to the creation of money, mankind spent most of its time at war trying to figure out that question.

And of course you don't want everyone to beg simultaneously. That was obvious in my question. Naturally, under your system, there must be beggars and givers -- masters and slaves. Reality can be disguised, but it cannot be wished away.


Back on topic: it is not uncommon for a good kid to come out of a bad neighborhood because of good parenting, but it is very common for a bad kid to come out of a good neighborhood because of bad parenting. Of course, for both parents and neighborhood to be good would be best, but it's quite clear which is most important to the development of the child.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
We are all just "I" apes and it's never just a family. Something that we all need to relearn is how we all are connected; how even though you pay for it, you depend on the baker who bakes your bread.
I've been thinking about adapting some ideas from Buddhism to form a cultural training camp. One aspect of this would include temporarily renouncing all possesions (empty your pockets at the door) and beg for your food for a week. No begging = no food for the day. The hope would be that participants would gain some insight into how we are dependant on each other.

But the baker bakes my bread because I provide him the means to build his house. It's a fair trade of equals (* 6 billion), not the degradation of begging. There's a crucial difference you ought to consider for your "insight."

Besides, when we are ALL begging, who shall be giving the alms?

And if 1 baker refuses to bake me bread I find another baker.

 

[RichPLS]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: RichPLS
Before the 2001 inauguration of George Bush, he was invited to a get-acquainted tour of the White House. After drinking several glasses of iced tea {remember his history and his 40th birthday pledge to Laura ; )), he asked Bill Clinton if he could use his personal bathroom.
When he entered Clinton's private toilet, he was astonished to see that Clinton had a solid gold urinal. That afternoon, George told his wife, Laura, about the urinal. "Just think," he said, "when I am president, I can have a gold urinal too. But I wouldn't do something that self-indulgent."

Later when Laura had lunch with Hilary at her tour of the White House, she told Hilary how impressed George had been at his discovery the gold urinal.

That evening, when Bill and Hilary were getting ready for bed, Hilary smiled, and said to Bill, "I found out who pissed in your saxophone."

LMAO!

Did you hear that Monica has finally come to her senses and stopped supporting Democrats?

She says they left a bad taste in her mouth.

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: MonkeyK
See that's the problem. We think that because we exchange money that the relationship/dependancy does not exist. We treat money as a stand-in for the relationship. The fact is that we depend on a lot of different types of services and people (a villiage) being available. We use money to enforce that the services exist, but we still depend on them.

Regarding the begging, I do not suggest that everybody in the world beg simultaniously, some people (appearently such as yourself) are not interested in this sort of "insight". I do however think that at any given time a large city can handle the few people who are looking for this sort of "insight". Also, consider that Buddhist monks in Thailand already do this.

There is no problem.

THE single biggest strawman used against capitalism is the "No man is an island" bullsh!t. An absolute joke if it wasn't so painfully ignorant of plain reality. Not for one moment do capitalists believe that any man is an island. What they do believe is the free exchange and barter between free individuals acting as equals. Money is the system that was derived to provide the fairest and most equal of mediums. After all, just how many chickens does it take to make a cow? For this reason, money was created as, prior to the creation of money, mankind spent most of its time at war trying to figure out that question.

And of course you don't want everyone to beg simultaneously. That was obvious in my question. Naturally, under your system, there must be beggars and givers -- masters and slaves. Reality can be disguised, but it cannot be wished away.


Back on topic: it is not uncommon for a good kid to come out of a bad neighborhood because of good parenting, but it is very common for a bad kid to come out of a good neighborhood because of bad parenting. Of course, for both parents and neighborhood to be good would be best, but it's quite clear which is most important to the development of the child.

I think it was Dostoevsky who said that there is pleasure in taking offense. Are you looking for something to find disagreeable?

I do not believe that I argued against capitalism. Whether money tying this stuff together is a good or bad thing is a completely seperate issue (BTW even with money you still have the problem of how many moneys a chicken is worth. The money corrects the problem of someone wanting chickens for his cow and all you have are ducks).
I did not say that any man is an island, if fact I said that the exact opposite is inescapable. The problem that I mentioned is that, more and more, I see people considering themselves islands. For example you said that because you paid the baker, you did not depend on him. Not recognizing the relationship is, IMO, a social ill.

I am trying to understand your master and slave statement. I think you misunderstand the intent of my proposal. The point of begging is not to make a slave of someone. The point is to remember that you depend on others on a more fundamental level than through financial relationships.

Also, my proposal is hardly a "system". I suggested begging for a week, admittedly the details need to be worked out. While I did mention that it would only be a few people, I suppose that I did not mention that I intend this to be voluntary. For people who are desperately trying to remember what it means to be connected to the world.