Hillary Clinton exclusively used personal emails at st dpt

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runzwithsizorz

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
3,497
14
76
Now ^that^ is a straw man. The irony! :D
Wrong, those aren't real, or imagined easily defeated nut jobs, propped up like straw men.
I said nothing of the sort, (cough, "blatant propaganda", cough), nor is that a position I've offered.



Actions speak louder than words.
You would be correct to assume my position on the Clinton machine, but that's about it. Again, you don't know me.



ibid.
You would be hard pressed to find any, "objective and credible source", from left leaning media that sheds a bad light on the Clinton's. You say you're interested, and so am I, and believe me, I've looked. Even they have admitted they are afraid of her. Ergo, your work.
So far you have my respect, in that you haven't yet lowered yourself to childish name calling. Kudos to you sir. Oh, and then there's this; -----
" I'm not a Clinton fan. " :)
 
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Attic

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2010
4,282
2
76
Hilary's Email Defense is Laughable
-Dan Metcalfe

From Politico
Full Article

Takes Hilary to task for her corruption of language and deceptions used to cover up the significance of her actions regarding her exclusive use of private email while conducting government business.

Author says he'd vote for Hilary regardless and is a staunch Democrat. Understandable given alternatives, and he's making the point how clear cut this scandal is even for the die hards.

Few bits:

First, while it is accurate for Secretary Clinton to say that when she was in office there was not a flat, categorical prohibition on federal government officials ever using their personal email accounts for the conduct of official business, that’s a far different thing from saying (as she apparently would like to) that a government official could use his or her personal email account exclusively, for all official email communications, as she actually did. In fact, the Federal Records Act dictates otherwise.

That law, which applies to all federal agency employees who are not within the White House itself, requires the comprehensive documentation of the conduct of official business, and it has long done so by regulating the creation, maintenance, preservation and, ultimately, the disposition of agency records. When it comes to “modern-day” email communications, as compared to the paper memoranda of not so long ago, these communications now are themselves the very means of conducting official business, by definition.

To be sure, this cannot as a practical matter be absolute. When Obama administration officials came into office in 2009, the Federal Records Act certainly allowed room for the occasional use of a personal email account for official business where necessary—such as when a secretary of state understandably must deal with a crisis around the world in the middle of the night while an official email device might not be readily at hand. That just makes sense. But even then, in such an exceptional situation, the Federal Records Act’s documentation and preservation requirements still called upon that official (or a staff assistant) to forward any such email into the State Department’s official records system, where it would have been located otherwise.

This appears to be exactly what former Secretary of State Colin Powell did during his tenure, just as other high-level government officials may do (or are supposed to do) under such exceptional circumstances during their times in office. Notwithstanding Secretary Clinton’s sweeping claims to the contrary, there actually is no indication in any of the public discussions of this “scandal” that anyone other than she managed to do what she did (or didn’t) do as a federal official.

and touching on the corruption of language employed by Clinton in her defense of her actions, the use of "convenience" to create false impressions.

Let’s start with her opening sentences of the press conference: “First, when I got to work as secretary of state, I opted for convenience to use my personal email account, which was allowed by the State Department….”

This statement, right off the bat, gives a false impression, through two key words that are used and one that is missing. Her use of “opted” (which, incidentally, was readily accepted by her first questioner) strongly implies that she actually had a choice under the Federal Records Act; she did not. And the word “allowed” likewise connotes that what she did was permissible as a matter of law. It was not. It obviously was “allowed by the State Department” in one sense because it did proceed to happen; no one tackled her in the hallway before she could do it. But that does not mean that it was properly allowed, which is what she repeatedly implies. The missing word, of course, is “exclusively.” Officials were not absolutely barred from ever using their personal email accounts. But again, that is a far cry from what this answer falsely implies—that the law and regulations, either back then or now, allow the use of a personal email account exclusively. She never should have been using a personal account exclusively for her email correspondence. That’s the key ingredient that made her email setup contrary to policy, practice and law.

Let’s take, as another example, her claim that what she did was in compliance with law because “the federal guidelines are clear.” OK, please now tell us, Secretary Clinton, exactly which “federal guideline” (even one will do, notwithstanding your claim of plurality) makes it “clear” that you can unilaterally decide, dispositively and with such finality, which of your work-related records are “personal” and which ones are not, even with FOIA requests pending? Years ago, I worked on a case in which a presidential appointee—who shall remain nameless though not blameless—after becoming caught up in an especially controversial matter, intransigently declared that all of the records on a credenza behind his desk were “personal” and thus were beyond the reach of the FOIA (and that of the agency FOIA officer, whom he physically prevented from going back there). This official was severely castigated by a federal judge after it was found that he was, in no small part, quite mistaken about both things; the judge’s opinion was so pointed that we used the case regularly in our FOIA training programs. So yes, Secretary Clinton’s suggestion that federal officials can unilaterally determine which of their records are “personal” and which are “official,” even in the face of a FOIA request, is laughable.


Both parties do this stuff, generally it's a result of abuse of power rather than a partisan political tool, though Dems appear more willing to accept the inherent and open corruption of their own political leaders judging by this forum membership. Bigger bungholes I'd guess.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
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I think the most crazy thing to hear in all this is that they are allowed to use non-Gov servers and accounts at all for anything Gov related. I'm not allowed to do that where I work according to work policies and generally I'm working on nothing touching Gov. - it's simply policy to use your work accounts for work and not use your personal accounts for work related items. HowTF is this even allowed (for anyone in Fov)?
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,088
10,786
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There seems to be highly conflicting information about this. Some say it's "unprecedented" for a high level official to use personal email like this. Others (including the State Department, IIRC) say that John Kerry was the first to routinely use a .state.gov email. In any case "unprecedented" seems wrong since as already noted the Bush minions were doing it.

Anyway here's the solution: vote for Jeb - The Smart One in the Family™! All his emails are posted on the interwebs "in the spirit of transparency". They're all there - every last one. Jeb says so.

Apparently Jeb uses Outlook, and the actual PST files are available for download. My question is: is anyone on the planet so insufferably bored and have so much time on their hands that they've actually done so?

I expect that the "House Permanent Subcommittee on Benghazi" is excited at this prospect. Its about opening another subpoena mine.

This could be just the break needed to add more momentum to the Draft Romney movement!

I dunno... before e-mail existed, back in the Dark Ages, we used to use things called "pens" and "typewriters."

Does anyone believe that the Secretary of State is now forbidden from picking up a pen, writing a letter to a colleague or a foreign potentate, sealing it, affixing a stamp to it, and mailing it?
 

Knowing

Golden Member
Mar 18, 2014
1,522
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The idea that having a new domain, an email server, and all of their requisite trappings set up in your home is more convenient than having some GS4 IT peon generate your account just like he does for the other 60,000 odd state department employees is completely beyond any kind of reason.

Her delay in addressing the allegations was not because this was another right wing "not scandal," it was because she was waiting for it to blow over and / or getting pointers from her legal staff on precisely what language to use in order to waste a maximum amount of time in parsing.

Anyone who believes the repeated and particularly convenient IT faux pas by this "transparent" administration is lying to themselves.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
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I think the most crazy thing to hear in all this is that they are allowed to use non-Gov servers and accounts at all for anything Gov related. I'm not allowed to do that where I work according to work policies and generally I'm working on nothing touching Gov. - it's simply policy to use your work accounts for work and not use your personal accounts for work related items. HowTF is this even allowed (for anyone in Fov)?
It's allowed because it suits ALL of them. These are the people that make the rules and they will decide which ones they wish to obey and which ones they don't. The media is their enabler. The media used to be an entity they feared.

Changing gears on a related path, want to log into mail.clintonemail.com? They have web access enabled.

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2015/03/securitay-anyone-can-try-to-log-on-to.html
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
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641
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And she didn't sign an OF-109 separation form which would obviously be the best story to put out there. Better she didn't sign it than to have signed it and not turned over the emails. This is quite a shocking development. :rolleyes:
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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I think the most crazy thing to hear in all this is that they are allowed to use non-Gov servers and accounts at all for anything Gov related. I'm not allowed to do that where I work according to work policies and generally I'm working on nothing touching Gov. - it's simply policy to use your work accounts for work and not use your personal accounts for work related items. HowTF is this even allowed (for anyone in Fov)?

I think under special (emergency type) circumstances it should be OK to use their personal accounts. I don't care who you are, who you work for, sometimes the preferred email will be unavailable. This of course would be limited to those higher level employees who could be expected to have to work around the clock and away from their office, particularly in the case of emergencies.

I have been wondering if the use of her own server exclusively could, under some legal theory, render or convert that private server into a defacto State Dept server. I.e., it's no longer "private" under the law.

Fern
 

runzwithsizorz

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
3,497
14
76
And she didn't sign an OF-109 separation form which would obviously be the best story to put out there. Better she didn't sign it than to have signed it and not turned over the emails. This is quite a shocking development. :rolleyes:
I knew this all along. She is a smart seasoned veteran, and a lawyer that plans for almost any contingency. I say almost cuz the first few months her server was wide open. She then encrypted, and hired a third party, hands on spam filter company, a division of McAfee :eek: Hmmm, I wonder if they archive?:whiste:
 
Feb 19, 2001
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I thought you said lying is wrong. You just posted two lies above. First, Clinton only had one device, a Blackberry, when she was SOS. She only recently got the iPhone as a gift, long after she stepped down.

Second, it is completely dishonest to insist multiple devices are more convenient than a single device at all, let alone a "total lie." Every person on my staff has the option of carrying a single device covering both personal and business use, or two separate devices. Only one person has opted to carry two devices, and that's mostly due to inertia. For the vast majority of people, a single device is much more convenient. There are other, legitimate reasons to challenge the Clinton's' use of their own email, but claiming convenience is a "total lie" is in itself a total lie.
How do you know she never had another personal device that was never revealed?

Multiple devices might not be more convenient, but I am a multiple device carrier and I don't find it that much more inconvenient. In fact I like being able to separate my personal stuff from my work stuff even if I don't work with classified documents. Two of my coworkers have the the exact same setup as I do, and they're females. I can name a few others that have to frequently be on call that also have multiple devices.

Furthermore, while having one single device makes sense, why would it make sense to have EVERYTHING flow to one account? I would NOT want one email inbox for my personal stuff AND work stuff. In fact I juggle 3 inboxes regularly (work, personal, and my nonprofit). Sure maybe you could do it with some super slick Gmail filter, but why would you? Ask any business professional today to conduct their work through their personal Gmail and that would be a joke.

No matter what excuse you can come up with, I don't see how ANY successful professional today could see mixing personal and work email as a brilliant idea.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,745
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Another fine example of CBD right here folks! He can't imagine why he would use one device therefore there can't possibly be any other reason someone else might have. Therefore all other reasons must be nefarious!

Why are you people so fucking stupid?


How do you know she never had another personal device that was never revealed?

Multiple devices might not be more convenient, but I am a multiple device carrier and I don't find it that much more inconvenient. In fact I like being able to separate my personal stuff from my work stuff even if I don't work with classified documents. Two of my coworkers have the the exact same setup as I do, and they're females. I can name a few others that have to frequently be on call that also have multiple devices.

Furthermore, while having one single device makes sense, why would it make sense to have EVERYTHING flow to one account? I would NOT want one email inbox for my personal stuff AND work stuff. In fact I juggle 3 inboxes regularly (work, personal, and my nonprofit). Sure maybe you could do it with some super slick Gmail filter, but why would you? Ask any business professional today to conduct their work through their personal Gmail and that would be a joke.

No matter what excuse you can come up with, I don't see how ANY successful professional today could see mixing personal and work email as a brilliant idea.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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Another fine example of CBD right here folks! He can't imagine why he would use one device therefore there can't possibly be any other reason someone else might have. Therefore all other reasons must be nefarious!

I really don't care how many devices she used, it's pretty much irrelevant. What is relevant is that she specifically chose to use private email instead of the state dept emails to avoid scrutiny and retention. Pretending she went to all the trouble to have someone set up servers and email etc because it was "convenient" or some other bs story is just political damage control.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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I don't have any illusion that the public will see this as yet another example of how much of a lying scumbag she is and toss her to the curb. We've demonstrated time and again that as a collective voting public we are utterly stupid and we get the representation we deserve.

Stop hating on Amercia. This is the greatest country on earth, and the public continues to make decisions that move us in a positive direction.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Since it's "missing", I don't understand why we can't ask Hillary to sign the OF-109 now, as it's a legally REQUIRED separation statement for ALL State Department personnel.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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Since it's "missing", I don't understand why we can't ask Hillary to sign the OF-109 now, as it's a legally REQUIRED separation statement for ALL State Department personnel.

...signed, Doc Savage Fan, experienced government attorney
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,745
17,400
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Well you see, the whole reason I quoted him was because to him it was relevant;)


I really don't care how many devices she used, it's pretty much irrelevant. What is relevant is that she specifically chose to use private email instead of the state dept emails to avoid scrutiny and retention. Pretending she went to all the trouble to have someone set up servers and email etc because it was "convenient" or some other bs story is just political damage control.

If you've followed this thread then you know where I stand on this issue. Just because I take issue with politicians using private email to handle government business doesn't mean I also swallow up all the right wing bullshit pile on.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
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How do you know she never had another personal device that was never revealed?
Sorry, you have that backwards. Rudeguy bears the burden of proof. He asserted as fact that she did have two devices then, and that she lied when she claimed otherwise. Unfortunately for Rudeguy, he missed the fact that his purported proof was an iPhone Clinton received recently, long after she left State.

It's yet another example of my point in this thread. Just like the other big "scandals" flogged by the nutter propaganda mill, there is far more innuendo and speculation being parroted as fact than there is actual fact.


Multiple devices might not be more convenient, but I am a multiple device carrier and I don't find it that much more inconvenient. ...
Good for you. When you are the subject of an email "scandal," your personal preferences may be relevant. They are irrelevant to Clinton's preferences.


No matter what excuse you can come up with, I don't see how ANY successful professional today could see mixing personal and work email as a brilliant idea.
Personally, I agree. If only the nutter propaganda mill and its army of rubes limited its attacks to such points. And in fairness, I'm not Clinton and I don't have a huge staff of admins to filter and sort my incoming correspondence.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
The idea that having a new domain, an email server, and all of their requisite trappings set up in your home is more convenient than having some GS4 IT peon generate your account just like he does for the other 60,000 odd state department employees is completely beyond any kind of reason. ...

Perhaps, if Hillary Clinton had to set up the server herself. Clearly, she did not. She told someone what she wanted and it was done. Very convenient for her. But it was even easier than that, because they already had the server. It was set up for Bill Clinton originally, ready and waiting for Hillary. All she needed was an additional domain name and she was good to go.
I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand. Executives have people to handle such mundane work.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Is it? Care to cite the statute?
I doubt there's a law per se, but it's an extremely strict government policy to safeguard national security. State Department employees should automatically suffer consequences for not signing this document, the first being a full investigation of potential security violations. Is this not reasonable?
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
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I doubt there's a law per se, but it's an extremely strict government policy to safeguard national security. State Department employees should automatically suffer consequences for not signing this document, the first being a full investigation of potential security violations. Is this not reasonable?

Is it retroactive? ;)
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,745
17,400
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I doubt there's a law per se, but it's an extremely strict government policy to safeguard national security. State Department employees should automatically suffer consequences for not signing this document, the first being a full investigation of potential security violations. Is this not reasonable?

Is it reasonable to want that requirement? Yeah, I think it's reasonable. Is that what your original post said?

Since it's "missing", I don't understand why we can't ask Hillary to sign the OF-109 now, as it's a legally REQUIRED separation statement for ALL State Department personnel.

No and you were called on it.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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... Wrong, those aren't real, or imagined easily defeated nut jobs, propped up like straw men. ...
I won't belabor this further. You simply, factually do not understand what a straw man argument is. Instead of twisting a short clip from a dictionary to match your misconception, please read something more substantive and less subject to misinterpretation. I suspect Wikipedia has a good page on it, and there are several sites that explain different fallacies with examples.


You would be hard pressed to find any, "objective and credible source", from left leaning media that sheds a bad light on the Clinton's. You say you're interested, and so am I, and believe me, I've looked. Even they have admitted they are afraid of her. Ergo, your work.
So far you have my respect, in that you haven't yet lowered yourself to childish name calling. Kudos to you sir. Oh, and then there's this; -----
" I'm not a Clinton fan. " :)
First, the so-called "left leaning media" have published all sorts of negative stories about the Clintons, including heavy coverage of this email issue. More to the point, however, I never suggested you limit your search to media sites. Look for original source documents like court documents, sworn statements, etc.

Also, be sure you're searching for the right stuff. If the best you can find is there are lots of accusations, but nothing's held up in court, don't waste your time. I know that. Everyone knows that. If you can find something specific, credible, and documented, that is good fodder for discussion. I truly am not a Clinton fan and suspect she's been involved in all sorts of shady stuff over her career. Suspicions are not fact, however.
 
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