-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
High oil prices= a good thing?
Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
sniperruff
Lifer
the rising oil prices reminds me of the current NYC cigarette tax hike- now it's $9.50 for a pack of marlboro.
there was a spike in requesting free nicotine patches in the month following the tax hike, so more people are quitting smoking, which is a good thing if you ask me.
same for the rising gas prices- it's driving more people away from burning more gas, adopt more efficient modes of transportation, live closer to work, etc. all of those which increases our efficiency in energy usage. in my opinion, the government is not doing a good job in subsidizing alternative energy (no, inefficiently processing corn into ethanol is not feasible), or we'd just jump to that like the free nicotine patches provided by the NYC government.
oil wells will run dry some time. it's better to feel the pinch now than later.
there was a spike in requesting free nicotine patches in the month following the tax hike, so more people are quitting smoking, which is a good thing if you ask me.
same for the rising gas prices- it's driving more people away from burning more gas, adopt more efficient modes of transportation, live closer to work, etc. all of those which increases our efficiency in energy usage. in my opinion, the government is not doing a good job in subsidizing alternative energy (no, inefficiently processing corn into ethanol is not feasible), or we'd just jump to that like the free nicotine patches provided by the NYC government.
oil wells will run dry some time. it's better to feel the pinch now than later.
Remember that crazy bastard Ross Perot. He pledged to impose a $0.50 tax on every gallon of gas to fund alternative energy development. Thank god the American people are not stupid, like we would have elected anyone that would have made us pay $1.50 for a gallon of gas.
It's not the "high" price of oil anyways, it's the devaluation of our currency. I blame Nixon, Reagan, Dubya, Greenspan, the Fed, & the fractional banking system. Of course none of the damage would have been done without the free spending politicos from both sides that passed the budgets, particularily during the Reagan administrations. The deficit spending that forced Nixon to take us off the gold standard was the beginning IMHO.
Not here to attack or defend one party over another, they are both corrupt and self serving. Our deficit spending is not sustainable, in less than 10 years there will simply not be enough foreign investment money out there to satisfy our daily needs. Be thankfull China is dumping US dollars around the globe buying up precious nonrenewable resources, mines, land, and operations to process the materials. If those dollars were coming back to the US you would be dreaming of the "good old days of $4 gas...."
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm
We saw the largest influx of foreign investment capital in the US since WW2 during this period. This fiscal responsibility was the reason for the boom enjoyed on the markets and in our economy. Went to shit as soon as Dubya hit the door and deficit spending resumed. For all the posturing and stereotypical beliefs the GOP is much worse when it comes to spending. The worst part of that is their policy is essentially wealth redistribution, and most of it it funnels into the hands of the already wealthy.
We saw the largest influx of foreign investment capital in the US since WW2 during this period. This fiscal responsibility was the reason for the boom enjoyed on the markets and in our economy. Went to shit as soon as Dubya hit the door and deficit spending resumed. For all the posturing and stereotypical beliefs the GOP is much worse when it comes to spending. The worst part of that is their policy is essentially wealth redistribution, and most of it it funnels into the hands of the already wealthy.
Throckmorton
Lifer
The only question is whether we want high oil prices now, or castastrophically high prices and civilization destroying shortages later.
Brainonska511
Lifer
You started off nicely with Ross Perot, but then took a quick turn to crazy town once you started on the banking system.
Sorry, not a big fan of the fractional banking system. It allows banks to eventually turn a $100 deposit into $1000 (w/a 10% reserve limit). I must have missed the part in the constitution where banks were given the power to create money.
I also have a problem with the US federal reserve's ownership/control structure. Wall street should not control US currency supply.
Why do you think gas is $4 a gallon now, when it was only $2 a couple of years ago? Do you honestly believe every cost involved in the extraction/refining/trasportation doubled in that same time period? It costs roughly the same, your dollar just has less purchasing power thanks to inflation. That has been caused by our deficit spending, overproduction of our currency supply, and compounded x10 by fractional banking.
You do understand why/how there is a real estate bubble about to explode, and the roles/motivation of the fed and banks working hand in hand in that matter? I for one don't really want to see a "bank run" on the US dollar. Current US debt load, public and private, is overwhelming, meanwhile more money is being created which makes every one less valuable (inflation, see price of gas). Soros considers our situation the most significant financial crisis (opportunity) he has witnessed in his life. For a man who made his billions crashing currencies to come out of retirement based on what he sees is a scary thought....
I will concede greater demand by China has helped affect the price of oil, but their influence on the market is only at the base of a mountain they are quickly climbing.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
its like saying food shortage is a good thing because it'll drive innovation.
its not a good thing. it makes people esp at the bottom suffer. even lower middle class have to begin trading off quality of life because of fuel costs. green yuppies who are insulated from most effects will squeal in glee, but its rather misguided.
just don't forget what cheap fuel sources we do have. we have boatloads of wood. and even more coal.
if fuel costs enough people are just going raise their emissions not reduce them.
its not a good thing. it makes people esp at the bottom suffer. even lower middle class have to begin trading off quality of life because of fuel costs. green yuppies who are insulated from most effects will squeal in glee, but its rather misguided.
just don't forget what cheap fuel sources we do have. we have boatloads of wood. and even more coal.
if fuel costs enough people are just going raise their emissions not reduce them.
The only people who think absurdly high fuel prices are a good thing are those that can afford to easily weather it.
How many grandma's and grandpa's freezing to death because they can't afford heating oil are they willing to read about before its not such a good idea anymore? These high fuel costs are seriously hurting people (mostly the poor and middle class) and I don't think the avg. American can withstand 10-30 years of extremely high and increasing fuel prices until alternatives can be brought into widespread use.
Fritzo
Lifer
No, it's not. Food can not be obtained from other sources and it does not hurt the environment. Energy can be obtained from many sources and our existing methods hurt the environment. We're not at a point where we're smart enough to obtain our energy from clean sources, but it's going to take time. Our choices are:
Continue on the current course and let other countries determine our supply and our economy, plus spend more money to modify our lifestyles to deal with the environment.
-or-
Retool our grid to accept wind, geothermal, solar, etc and reduce dependance on other countries in 10 years, but we'll have to deal with high costs until that happens.
Fritzo
Lifer
Tell me, exactly how many grandmas and grandpas are freezing to death? There are programs in place for people that can't afford heat, so it should be near 0% in the US. You're saying we should keep everything the way it is----if you don't want to change anything, and it sucks right now, you're saying you're happy with the status quo?
Squisher
Lifer
This extreme change in energy costs is killing people. Yay! That'll teach'em.
Just suck it up and get over it.
EDIT:
While oil consumption in the US will go down for the same amount of energy used to produce product and sustain life one of the main reasons oil is so high is that the rest of the world is using so much of it. So, now you moved consumption of oil to the second and third world where environmental concerns are not even part of the equation.
Because oil is going up the pressure to open up what was once marginal oil sources is now a full court press to open up all sources. With all this new found oil speculation sites and speculators getting into the oil production equation chances for oil and environmental mishaps will be greatly enhanced.
It is not like we here in the US have zero mortality due to poverty. As oil goes up so do ALL products that utilize oil in its production (just about everything). Given a high enough rise in price in those things needed to sustain life it is not a stretch in the imagination that at some time life will be lost due an inability to afford those necessary items. As secondary to the direct cause of oil increases are those things done to compensate for it like the use of corn to create Ethanol. As the price of food goes up and given that the US is a net exporter of food there are now people dieing in the world because they can no longer afford our food.
As a Michigan resident I am witness to the high cost of oil causing families to lose their jobs, savings, and houses. Maybe someone not affected by this I could sit back and say ?that?ll teach?em to bank on low oil prices,? but unfortunately I have a hard time looking into the face of suffering with a self-serving smirk on my face.
Change is inevitable. Oil was bound to go up, but I don?t think anybody expected so much so fast. When evolution turns into revolution nobody benefits.
Just suck it up and get over it.
EDIT:
While oil consumption in the US will go down for the same amount of energy used to produce product and sustain life one of the main reasons oil is so high is that the rest of the world is using so much of it. So, now you moved consumption of oil to the second and third world where environmental concerns are not even part of the equation.
Because oil is going up the pressure to open up what was once marginal oil sources is now a full court press to open up all sources. With all this new found oil speculation sites and speculators getting into the oil production equation chances for oil and environmental mishaps will be greatly enhanced.
It is not like we here in the US have zero mortality due to poverty. As oil goes up so do ALL products that utilize oil in its production (just about everything). Given a high enough rise in price in those things needed to sustain life it is not a stretch in the imagination that at some time life will be lost due an inability to afford those necessary items. As secondary to the direct cause of oil increases are those things done to compensate for it like the use of corn to create Ethanol. As the price of food goes up and given that the US is a net exporter of food there are now people dieing in the world because they can no longer afford our food.
As a Michigan resident I am witness to the high cost of oil causing families to lose their jobs, savings, and houses. Maybe someone not affected by this I could sit back and say ?that?ll teach?em to bank on low oil prices,? but unfortunately I have a hard time looking into the face of suffering with a self-serving smirk on my face.
Change is inevitable. Oil was bound to go up, but I don?t think anybody expected so much so fast. When evolution turns into revolution nobody benefits.
LegendKiller
Lifer
Fractional lending isn't the banks "creating" money. Considering that deposits are only about half of what banks fund themselves with these days, it's not that huge of a deal. Additionally, there haven't been any increases in the money lent by banks themselves, or reserves dropped. The housing situation was caused by non-bank held debt, which is completely outside of fractional lending.
All I see here is "fractional" this and "fractional" that, when you also don't realize that the amount of double-down deposits is far smaller, thus the "money multiplier" is a completely overstated amount. All assets financed by a bank have liabilities or equity backing them. The deposits kept are only a portion of the total financing a bank has. Otherwise, it's a 1:1 ratio.
If you have proof to the contrary, including an analysis of banks' balance sheets, please provide.
Blaming oil on the Fed is completely ignoring the actual problem, speculation. Lending or the Fed have nothing to do with the current outlook on oil. It's only driven by a blow-up of investment in commodities. If it were about the dollar, or inflation, then you'd not have seen the dollar fall by 35% in 7.5 years and oil go up by 616%.
Fritzo
Lifer
I don't know if people just read the title of my OP or actually read my post, but I'll restate it in a shorter version:
Increased oil may be a good thing in the long run as it will force us to take action in developing technologies for clean energy now instead of saying "the next generation will do it." Nowhere was this "ha- poor people are going to die off! Good!" mentality ever stated.
Then something about ice cream.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
yea sure but you werent arguing from a national security point of view, but a sneering sadistic environmentalist pov in your original post.
and actually those aren't our choices. the market makes the choice. if costs go up alternatives become viable, but although alternatives are good, the higher price is still a higher cost for consumers who will be left with less money in their pockets driving down the economy in the same way. right now alternative energy is neither efficient in generation or in cost. and its really insignificant and doesn't deal with the issue because electrical generation is a tiny tiny percentage of our oil use. its best to build up your economy on as cheap a fuel as possible for as long as possible. and right now the problem is there is no shortage, its simply political and the fault of speculators. it is an artificial rise in price.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil...image_us_cons_prod.htm
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil...age_us_cons_sector.htm
major problem here is that its a world market. someone will buy any oil we don't buy. believe me the only thing they are worried about is running out, not a lack of customers.
I remember quite a few people dying last year because they could not afford heating oil. When you factor in the fact that the price of heating oil has almost doubled in the last 12 months I can guarantee this winter will be much worse. Luckily some companies offer level billing so consumers can spread the cost out over the entire year. It will only cost the avg consumer roughly $400 per month (even in the summer) to heat their homes this winter. Tack that on to much higher electrical bills in a lot of places, much higher transportation costs, higher food prices, etc.. and people with fixed incomes will be/are seriously hurting.
And I never said to keep everything the way it is. I have actually been saying quite the opposite for quite a while. We need to invest a ton into alternative fuel sources, invest in upgrading our existing infrastructure, invest in renewable energy production, tax breaks for people/companies that use currently available alternatives to gas (biofuels, CNG, etc), increasing our domestic production of oil and gas, increasing our refining capability, etc...
There is no silver bullet to this problem. We need to do everything we can to develop alternatives to oil as well as increase conservation. At the same time, we will not completely stop using oil/ng for quite some time. It is foolish not to increase our domestic supply. Plus its one of the options that doesn't cost us a damn thing because the oil companies are going to fund it all. We actually profit through increased good paying jobs and royalties paid to .gov which can then help fund alternative research.
My original point remains, saying that these high fuel costs are a good thing is foolish and heartless. I bet you are in the group of people that can afford it.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
-
-