High Gas Prices: Blessing in Disguise?

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: charrison
The car culture is rising in both china and india right now, so we will likely have an answer in a decade. But by then I am not going to be surprised if deisel electric plugin hybrids get 100mpg either...

Call me an optimist...

A researcher in the mid west got his plugin hybird to get 250 MPG. But the plugin hybirds cost about 12k more to produce than standard hybirds which are about 7k normal then a conventional car.

Still would be sweet to pay only 80 bucks a year in gas. I'm not sure what it would do to your electric bill though.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
How many Oil powered Steam engines have you've seen?

They were either wood or coal fired, not Oil.

You can just as readily power a steam engine with oil. I can also convert coal to oil. Both are fossil fuels. Just admit that you said something stupid and move on with your life - you can't hope to weasel your way out of that one.

Originally posted by: Tab
There's a lot of oil in the world, it's just that getting it is much more difficult to find oil deposits that are within are grasp physically and finically.

/wonders why Tab is trying to educate me on the finer points of oil production

 

[YoshiSato]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
How many Oil powered Steam engines have you've seen?

They were either wood or coal fired, not Oil.

You can just as readily power a steam engine with oil. I can also convert coal to oil. Both are fossil fuels. Just admit that you said something stupid and move on with your life - you can't hope to weasel your way out of that one.

Originally posted by: Tab
There's a lot of oil in the world, it's just that getting it is much more difficult to find oil deposits that are within are grasp physically and finically.

/wonders why Tab is trying to educate me on the finer points of oil production

The great thing about steam power is you can use any fuel to boil water, paper, garbage, oil, gas, coal, nuclear fuel rods...ect



Happy?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: YoshiSato
The great thing about steam power is you can use any fuel to boil water, paper, garbage, oil, gas, coal, nuclear fuel rods...ect

Please fix your quote. I don't want to be associated with Dave's ignorance. :disgust:

 

[zugzoog]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Pabster
Blessing in disguise? Perhaps.

Good luck getting any serious debate and discussion on this topic.

I've posted similiar material in other threads (particularly Dave's infamous gas threads) and it has been ignored.

If you are really interested in a source for oil (and lots of it) read Here (PDF-Adobe Acrobat Required). This is the RAND report that, frankly, hasn't received the attention that it deserves. You might be surprised to learn that right here in the continental USA is a larger supply of oil than the entire country of Saudi Arabia.

Originally posted by: Stunt
I know I probably won't get a serious debate, but I enjoy throwing theories and ideas out there, if it makes just one people see a different side of the equation; it is all worthwhile. Maybe I can attract people like yourself, who do want to discuss seriously, to the conversation and teach me a thing or two. I sure as hell don't have all the answers!

Good luck.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

We are slaves to the Oil Barons by design.

It's been that way since the conversion from steam to Oil and it's not about to change anytime soon.

3% of the Australian car fleet runs on Natural gas. At the moment the Natural gas conversion shops have a two month waiting list such is the interest in changing over. As the oil price increases I can only see this trend accelerating.

Not about to change? check this out.

As the oil prices rise, alternatives will be developed. A blessing in disguise.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Tab
There's a lot of oil in the world, it's just that getting it is much more difficult to find oil deposits that are within are grasp physically and finically.

/wonders why Tab is trying to educate me on the finer points of oil production [/quote]

Just commenting.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Personally, I'm quite disappointed that prices for premium gasoline have fallen below $3. It's quite likely that many people will have quite a short memory. Granted, it's probably going to be a painful winter for people that heat with gas or fuel oil. Electricity prices are rising as well due to the NG powerplants.

 

[Ferocious]

Why is it that whatever is seemingly good for Americans in the long term is always so exceptionally good for the rich right now?

High gas prices, job offshoring, etc.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: YoshiSato
A researcher in the mid west got his plugin hybird to get 250 MPG. But the plugin hybirds cost about 12k more to produce than standard hybirds which are about 7k normal then a conventional car.

Still would be sweet to pay only 80 bucks a year in gas. I'm not sure what it would do to your electric bill though.

That was using battery power as well. Electricity is for the most part developed using coal, not to metion all the energy and materials used to make all the batteries in the man's car.

While some see coal as an alternative resource, I see it as a half assed attempt at innovation.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Why is it that whatever is seemingly good for Americans in the long term is always so exceptionally good for the rich right now?

High gas prices, job offshoring, etc.

Didn't you get the memo? The rich ARE America! Want an audience with your elected representative . . . you better be well-off. Want an audience with your President . . . you better be ridiculously wealthy (or a 70s coke dealer).

 

[digiram]

It's funny to think back to all the repubs warning against the "liberal" democrats wanting nothing but to tax oil and raise gas prices, but in the end it's the Republicans that allow the oil barons to rape the public. Oh the irony!!!!

Back to the topic. I certainly hope and fully the support the idea of new technology that will make us less dependant of oil. However, as Dave has mentioned already, it's a long shot for our government is nothing but a whore for big corps. That goes for Dems and Repubs. Oh well.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: YoshiSato
The great thing about steam power is you can use any fuel to boil water, paper, garbage, oil, gas, coal, nuclear fuel rods...ect

Please fix your quote. I don't want to be associated with Dave's ignorance. :disgust:

Hey Mr Oil Baron, I bet you don't like Stirling Engines either.

 

[Genx87]

I have the same feeling, it is a free market commodity, the only way to get people to conserve or think about conserving is when it starts to affect their pocket book. Companies wont start to invest in looking for alternative energy sources until people start demanding it with their pocket books.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I have the same feeling, it is a free market commodity, the only way to get people to conserve or think about conserving is when it starts to affect their pocket book. Companies wont start to invest in looking for alternative energy sources until people start demanding it with their pocket books.

Oh, you bought a Bridge this morning too. Congratulations

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87
I have the same feeling, it is a free market commodity, the only way to get people to conserve or think about conserving is when it starts to affect their pocket book. Companies wont start to invest in looking for alternative energy sources until people start demanding it with their pocket books.

Oh, you bought a Bridge this morning too. Congratulations

Outside of proclaiming your slavery to oil barons what have you contributed to this thread? What do you contribute to any thread for that matter?

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I have the same feeling, it is a free market commodity, the only way to get people to conserve or think about conserving is when it starts to affect their pocket book. Companies wont start to invest in looking for alternative energy sources until people start demanding it with their pocket books.

True enough. And when alternative energy can be produced for equal or less cost, which it can't today.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Hey Mr Oil Baron, I bet you don't like Stirling Engines either.

1. I have no affiliation with any oil company. Simply because I understand the workings of engines doesn't mean I'm beholden to them, regardless of what your ignorance leads you to believe.

2. Stirling engines are terribly inefficient, since efficiency increases with temperature gradient in any engine. They're more or less useless unless you happen to need almost no power and are already venting a lot of waste heat. So, if you're powering one with fossil fuels, you're wasting 90%+ of the input energy. So no, I'm not a big fan. Maybe you should drag up here and sit in on my thermodynamics class so you can educate yourself. Or, as I predict, you will proceed forth in ignorance - it's all you know, and it's worked for you this far.

 

[desy]

Damn Toyota has the car they just won't make it have for over 5 yrs!!
This is where I hold auto manufactureres responsible for keeping down choices.OVER 100 mpg over 5 yrs ago
Stirling engines have a place the car isn't one of them, maybe airplanes. . .

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: desy
Damn Toyota has the car they just won't make it have for over 5 yrs!!
This is where I hold auto manufactureres responsible for keeping down choices.OVER 100 mpg over 5 yrs ago
Stirling engines have a place the car isn't one of them, maybe airplanes. . .

November 08, 2002
Toyota Shelves 100 MPG Car


Do you honestly believe "Toyota" shelved the car on their own???

If so, congratulations, you've bought a Bridge today too.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: Genx87
I have the same feeling, it is a free market commodity, the only way to get people to conserve or think about conserving is when it starts to affect their pocket book. Companies wont start to invest in looking for alternative energy sources until people start demanding it with their pocket books.

True enough. And when alternative energy can be produced for equal or less cost, which it can't today.

That's b/c gasoline is highly subsidized. The Gulf War was about access to oil . . . granted a lot of nations chipped in on that one. The environmental damage due to the production, storage, and use of gasoline is not factored into the cost of gasoline.

 

[desy]

OK they have the car its even on Toyo's website they first showed it in Frankfurt in 2001
Who shelved it then, they obviosuly pushed the gasoline hybrid, why not the diesel?
Esp for the Europen market where they tested it and half of all car sales are already diesels?
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/01/0912.html

A nice long article about it

 

[kleinwl]

Everyone needs to understand that while high gas prices will increase capital spending on R&D, the us (even at $5/gal fuel) is quite a bit cheaper than the EU, and we haven't seen large improvements in fuel economie from their R&D.

Basically the US has 3 major problems:
1) Lack of funding for mass-transite
2) Lack of basic R&D (R&D funding is at a all time low in terms of %GDP)
3) Fear of Diesel

There is a reason that over 50% of cars sold in the EU are diesel. A 400bhp BMW can get over 35mph using Diesel. So... who cares about hybrids? The EU certainly doesn't.

There is also a reason that the EU/Mexico/Russia/etc all have great mass-transit systems. It is a benifit to society. However, in the US, no one is willing to walk to the store, nor take a bus to work. I can't blame them. The stores are miles away, and the bus takes hours for a simple 15 mi drive. So, everyone is forced into cars by default. Isn't Urban sprawl wonderful.

Just understand. The US problems are too expansive to be cured quickly. We are stuck with these horrible facts: Poor mass-transite/Urban Sprawl/Fear of Diesel. In the short run, we are out of luck... Long term, maybe something could be done... but the US lacks the political will to do so until forced into it (perhaps by $800/barrel oil?)

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: kleinwl
There is also a reason that the EU/Mexico/Russia/etc all have great mass-transit systems. It is a benifit to society. However, in the US, no one is willing to walk to the store, nor take a bus to work. I can't blame them. The stores are miles away, and the bus takes hours for a simple 15 mi drive. So, everyone is forced into cars by default. Isn't Urban sprawl wonderful.

I disagree with the generalization that all local transportation in the US is horrible. Admittedly, it takes longer. But there are cities where there is decent transportation that is affordable. The problem is most people won't use it. I'd like to see a study though on usage of public transportation relative to gas prices. IE how many more people ride public transportation when gas is $3.50 a gallon versus $2.25.

European transit is vastly superior. No doubt about that.

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: kleinwl
There is also a reason that the EU/Mexico/Russia/etc all have great mass-transit systems. It is a benifit to society. However, in the US, no one is willing to walk to the store, nor take a bus to work. I can't blame them. The stores are miles away, and the bus takes hours for a simple 15 mi drive. So, everyone is forced into cars by default. Isn't Urban sprawl wonderful.

I disagree with the generalization that all local transportation in the US is horrible. Admittedly, it takes longer. But there are cities where there is decent transportation that is affordable. The problem is most people won't use it. I'd like to see a study though on usage of public transportation relative to gas prices. IE how many more people ride public transportation when gas is $3.50 a gallon versus $2.25.

European transit is vastly superior. No doubt about that.

Mass transit or not, it doesn't matter. Americans like their freedom to go wherever they want, whenever they want to. Hence why the automobile is so successful. When we built our nation, even back before cars, people still lived far apart. We have lots of open land and people take advantage of it. If someone wants the mass transit life, move to a big city and walk.

The bottom line is that gas prices aren't as bad as the left wants it to be. If gas prices rise to a point where alternative fuels can be produced and sold for less, then we'll see alternative fuel vehicles hit the market en mass. As it stands now, most auto manufacturers don't think hybrid technology is that great when there are other alternatives available today and research is being done on alternatives that don't use any oil. Despite what the left says, consumers aren't demanding hybrids -- there just isn't a huge rush for people to change over. Again, American consumers speak with their money. Contrary to the forum liberals, people do think for themselves.

In the end, if OPEC drives up the price of oil, people will seek alternatives. This is why I think they will try to keep the price down. In the meantime, pump prices will rise over time due to a shortage in refinery production and due to the cost to tanker in gasoline.

By the time oil prices go crazy, alternatives will be in place. One can hope that this recent blip in prices will encourage energy companies to put R&D money into alternatives. Only time will tell, but I'll be right, despite what the forum liberals say.