high flow cat on a F150?

[stev0]

time for my truck to get a little love and i'm thinking about going with a power tower (throttle body spacer) and high flow cat(1). what do you guys think?

2k F150 ext cab flareside 5.4L v8
k & n fipk intake
custom magnaflow catback
superchip power chip
ar 17" rims bfg a/t ko 33.5" x 11.5'' tires
standard adds (tints, color matched low profile bug deflector, ventshades, access tanou, bed rug)

only other thing that i'm interested in atm is an ignition system and headers, but don't really want to re-do my entire exhaust system.

 

[IGBT]

will it pass smog with the mods??

 

[TechnoKid]

I'd prefer to get an ignition before getting headers. Ignition will let you have a cleaner spark, and usually better efficiency, which equals better gas milage.

 

[Shockwave]

I'd ask these guys

They have a pretty good forum, and alot of knowledgable people over there dedicated to squeezing every ounce of juice from Fords.

 

I'd prefer to get an ignition before getting headers. Ignition will let you have a cleaner spark, and usually better efficiency, which equals better gas mileage.

Not on a stock vehicle, a high performance ignition system on a low compression engine will do nothing for HP, (once you add other performance mods, then it might make a difference) a freer flowing intake or exhaust system is just about guaranteed to make more ponies.

Remember that once the spark kernel has initialized, the voltage requirements to keep the kernel lit is very low, on the order of a few thousand volts.
A high compression engine or one with very little camshaft overlap (high cranking pressure) will require a higher voltage to initialize the kernel because of the increased pressure at top dead center.

 

[Shockwave]

I like the 4 3's.
300 - Catback exhaust
300 - Cold air intake (ok, a bit less then 3...)
300 - HP chip
300 - Electric fan

1200 bucks. And a helluva lot of ponies for the money. 100 or so, ballpark estimate a little high. Throw a larger throttle body on there instead of the fan if you prefer.

 

[LAUST]

Don't get a high flow CAT unless you have forced induction, and then at that I still have stock CAT's on mine and I have F/I. CAT's of today are not like they were in the 80's, they flow quite well now from the factory.

Like Roger said Ignition isn't going to help a Stock/Mild Modded vehicle, Besides the 5.4 has a distributerless ignition as it is anyway.

As far as the CAT-Back and the K&N Gen II intake, good move, Never get a open element intake on these new trucks without letting it breath on the back end also.

I found the ceramic coated headers in my truck never really added inital power, but what they did do is lower my engine compartment temperatures, making my fan turn on a lot less.

As far as the chip, I don't think I would really bother unless you have a blower on it (and the chip is made for that exact combo), or have a Diesel. Most chips you have to go with Premium gas afterwards (timing) and for maybe 25HP increase. I got a S/C and need Premium but I gained 160HP, just seems like a good trade.



N/A trucks of today I think are best off with things like CAT-Backs, Air Intake, good set of wheels/tires, shocks (most stock one's suck) and Electric fan's (get a kit made for your specifiv model)

 

[Shockwave]

Actually not all chips require a blower OR high octane. They chips now have "Dip switchs" so you can swith between factory programming, a mild boost and a high performance mode.

Diable is one such maker of chips, theres a few others I cant think of right off. But, i like the looks of the Diablo cause they will re program later on at no charge. So, buy it now. Then when you get a bigger throttle body of blower, sned it in for reburn.

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: Shockwave
Actually not all chips require a blower OR high octane.

As far as the chip, I don't think I would really bother unless you have a blower on it

I know, I just don't think they are worth it without them

 

[alkemyst]

My dad and I just got done with most of a 96 Bronco Eddie Bauer build up....

Hi flow cats = yes and were definitely a lot better than the stock units.

Complete setup:

1996 Bronco EB

351W stroked to 408ci with Eagle Forged Crank and SRP forged pistons

AFR 185 heads (58cc)

Comp Cams custom roller cam with Pro Magnum roller rockers (built as a street not race truck although it can totally break the rear tires loose until you decide to let them hook up, 5000lb truck by the way ).

42lb injectors

255 lpr fuel pump

FMS Shortie Headers S/S

Bassani S/S header back system with cats

Edelbrock EFI Performer Manifold

Dual 61mm BBK throttle body

K&N AirCharger (new setup with cold air box)

E4OD reworked

32" Tires on 16" wheels

ignition is next...

Å

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: Shockwave
Actually not all chips require a blower OR high octane.

As far as the chip, I don't think I would really bother unless you have a blower on it

I know, I just don't think they are worth it without them

Depends on the vehicle...the Bronco is going to need a chip as well....doubled horse power + the 42lb injectors (stock was 19lb) makes it a little hard for the stock ECU to regulate properly and it surges occassionally and other times it 'dies out' (leans).


Å

 

[stev0]

Originally posted by: Roger

I'd prefer to get an ignition before getting headers. Ignition will let you have a cleaner spark, and usually better efficiency, which equals better gas mileage.

Not on a stock vehicle, a high performance ignition system on a low compression engine will do nothing for HP, (once you add other performance mods, then it might make a difference) a freer flowing intake or exhaust system is just about guaranteed to make more ponies.

Remember that once the spark kernel has initialized, the voltage requirements to keep the kernel lit is very low, on the order of a few thousand volts.
A high compression engine or one with very little camshaft overlap (high cranking pressure) will require a higher voltage to initialize the kernel because of the increased pressure at top dead center.

well... what would you suggest roger?

going to go check into the electric fan right now

 

Anything that allows the engine to breathe better, think of your engine as a air pump, the more air/fuel in, the more power you are going to see.

Throttle body spacers increase (up to a point) the Hiemholtz effect, this effectively rams in more air at certain R.P.M. levels, a freer flowing exhaust will also increase the volumetric efficiency as well.
A cold air intake will see a slight increase but the big bang for the buck will be a tuner chip, but and this is a big but you will have to run premium fuel, your emissions will go out the door and you will shorten the life of the catalytic converter.

The chip changes fuel flow, ignition timing and shift points (auto only), a lower temp thermostat will give you a few HP at the sacrifice of engine life in the long haul.
A cooler running engine has better intake volume efficiency but because the oil never fully warms up the contaminants in the oil do not burn off fully.

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: LAUST

Originally posted by: Shockwave
Actually not all chips require a blower OR high octane.

As far as the chip, I don't think I would really bother unless you have a blower on it

I know, I just don't think they are worth it without them

Depends on the vehicle...the Bronco is going to need a chip as well....doubled horse power + the 42lb injectors (stock was 19lb) makes it a little hard for the stock ECU to regulate properly and it surges occassionally and other times it 'dies out' (leans).


Å

We were talking about a stock F-150 with an exhaust and intake

Trust me I know about dealing with fuel injectors, I PROGRAM my own PCM in my truck.. Stock injecters were 21# 5.3, now I have 30# from the GM 8.1 liter

2001 8.1 - Flow Rate = 3.77 13.997 13.891 11.337 5.0912 3.3739 1.6565
1.4286 1.2006 1.079 0.9574 0.8663 0.7903 0.7295 0.6687 0.6231 0.5623 0.5319
0.5015 0.4711 0.4407 0.4103 0.3951 0.3647 0.3495 0.3191 0.304 0.2888 0.2736

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: LAUST
We were talking about a stock F-150 with an exhaust and intake

Trust me I know about dealing with fuel injectors, I PROGRAM my own PCM in my truck.. Stock injecters were 21# 5.3, now I have 30# from the GM 8.1 liter

2001 8.1 - Flow Rate = 3.77 13.997 13.891 11.337 5.0912 3.3739 1.6565
1.4286 1.2006 1.079 0.9574 0.8663 0.7903 0.7295 0.6687 0.6231 0.5623 0.5319
0.5015 0.4711 0.4407 0.4103 0.3951 0.3647 0.3495 0.3191 0.304 0.2888 0.2736

We weren't just talking about exhaust and intake....There was a ton of misinfo you dealt out, leaning towards if you aren't running a blower nothing matters....There are so many people around here that run paxton/vortechs/eaton's and think they are engine gurus, often times not even doing the labor themselves, yet claim to have 'ported and polished their pistons' when they had the heads off (for a vortec?!?)....anyways...

Of course any of the below that you said, COULD be true sometimes....if that was said, but it wasn't:

You said chips are only good for FI (well not worth it you said also): FALSE

You said hi flow cats are only good for FI: FALSE (it is true however Cat technology on stock vehicles has improved....some cars have more decent stock cats than others)

You said upgraded ignition is not good for a stock truck (and also mention it doesn't have a distributor anyway...which has nothing to do with upgrading the IGNITION): FALSE

there are several stock trucks that can benefit from all of the above and several that may actually run worst with some combos.

When you talk about 'programming' your own injectors I am betting on the whipple programmer or equvalent and just typing in 'known' values from the net, if you are doing it on a dyno thats a different matter, but still more a set it and forget it type thing....also 160hp is a heck of an increase for a stock engine (maybe I am wrong on that I think Whipple calls for a max of 50% more power)....this dyno power or your 'guess'.

Å

 

[LAUST]

Delete

 

[Tom]

Any time you can read about the Heimholtz effect and big butts in the same post,

it's a good thing.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: LAUST
"ar 17" rims bfg a/t ko 33.5" x 11.5'' tires
standard adds (tints, color matched low profile bug deflector, ventshades, access tanou, bed rug)"
Oh I'm sorry, that bug deflector will really compliment a chip all kidding aside ONE thing outside of Exhaust and Intake.

Five years with more boost then reccomended, lots of towing, racing and offroading, I guess I am just lucky, I'm a tuner without a clue on the loose!! :Q I'm sure I can handle myself fine, have been for almost 2 decades

that was the OP, and it went way outside that when you responded to other things, but fine ignore those details....the rest too as it's clear you have only ideas and haven't tried much....

So what would you suggest he get for his configuration then? a Crane hi6? I would suggest he get rid of the cheap stock wires and get some MSD's tops, but I would not spend any money on an ignition for a near stock vehicle with just intake and exhaust.

I don't know about the newer engines but the 5.8L responded well to a MSD6A (I think that is the one) even with just exhaust and headers.

Now you begin pissing me off with the ASSumptions

I have a OBD2 scanner that I compare results to (AutoTap and EFI Live) I have enough time slips to bookmark every page in Yoda's diary and yah whipple's are rated for 50% increase with the SHIPPED FIVE POUND PULLEY my pulley is a 9lb pulley (actually since I live in Denver (5280ft) I get about 8lbs of boost, thats 3lbs more then what you read on the site and 5 years experience I have tuning it.

Now you tell me how I get a 5300lb 4x4 extended cab with 285/70/R16 tires at 5800ft (bandimere) up from 270HP stock to run a 14.9 with a 50% increase in HP, wait you don't have to tell me, I already said I have a smaller blower pulley that I asked be shipped with mine. I would rather tell you then you Assume . Outside of my own tuning all I have done is exhaust a bigger MAF (not for power but so my intake tube was an easier fit) I upgraded my fuel injectors so I didn't have to do booster injectors, nothing that would really gain me any power, the blower did it all.

And anyway 50% would be a 135HP increase, you really thing getting an extra 25HP out of a blower is really that tough? With almost a 200% increase in boost (9lbs vs 5lbs) over the "50%HP increase" I'm sure it's not far fetched.

well you run 14.7lbs (approx) you get 2x the power everything being equal, which it usually is not due to heat losses. 5 years exp in tuning it too....so bought new and FI'd right away + tuning....commendable, I didn't even know they had whipple for that 99 new engine out right away.

I saw your numbers, the Bronco is 5,000+ lbs also and a 4x4. your 14.9 may be close to 14 down here but the 89 mph you turned is odd for that time. I don't even want to comment on going to a bigger MAF just for an air tube to fit...that's screwy....but I doubt the stock MAF would handle your over 50% increase in power or injector increase properly....I don't work with Chevy's though so maybe they have more range in the stock metering....

Bigger injectors and the MAF, exhaust allowed that blower's power to be realized....you can't have it without the rest.

Oh and lets shoot your last "bet" down the tubes too, there is no "Whipple Computer" in my truck, I use LS1Edit and it's code level, not just some Hypertech Power Programmer, I can program totally different ENGINES for it, so no more ASSuming. Oh and go ahead and look for those values on the net for those injectors. Now are they Bosh style do you think?

Didn't say there was exactly, I asked if that's what you were talking about. I am aware of the EFI/OBDII coders....I am also aware of many people buying them and still have the work all done by someone else....I don't know what the point is about the 'BOSH' injectors.....but in almost any fuel injected vehicle add on injectors are idiotic and only have to be done in unusual circumstances....dealing with GM or Fords there is a ton of injector selection available for almost all streetable power ranges.

Å

 

[Shockwave]

I'll stick by my guns.
Chip
Exhaust
Intake
Fan

Blowers are GREAT for good HP gains, but a helluva lot more expensive then all the above combined. So, if you have a good amount of cash to spare and HP is your thing hell yes go forced induction. But, if you need bang for the buck and just want a bit more snap in the throttle....Well, I got 4 items listed that'll help with that

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Shockwave
I'll stick by my guns.
Chip
Exhaust
Intake
Fan

Blowers are GREAT for good HP gains, but a helluva lot more expensive then all the above combined. So, if you have a good amount of cash to spare and HP is your thing hell yes go forced induction. But, if you need bang for the buck and just want a bit more snap in the throttle....Well, I got 4 items listed that'll help with that

Exactly....no matter how you slice or dice it a Blower/Turbo is great, most bang for the buck....but the bucks are higher

People often say that a s/c or turbo is cheaper than doing all the bolt-ons...but often you have to do a lot of the bolt ons and extras for the FI setup. The way it works is if you do all the labor yourself as well as get lucky to have a $1500 as opposed to $4000 setup for your vehicle it's definitely smarter to go FI....however most people I know with $1500 'kits' by the time they were done changing pulleys, compressors, wastegates, injectors, exhaust, intercoolers, ecu's, etc, etc, etc....they now had a multiple of the $1500 kit.

Å

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

that was the OP, and it went way outside that when you responded to other things, but fine ignore those details....the rest too as it's clear you have only ideas and haven't tried much....

The only things I listed outside the OP were electric fans (which he wants now and I think it's a good move) and Headers, I stated what my results were with those headers

I don't know about the newer engines but the 5.8L responded well to a MSD6A (I think that is the one) even with just exhaust and headers.

5.8 = distributer ignition, I agree the ignition systems do wonders for older engines. About the best I can do for my truck is swap to the 6.0 coils (Used in ASA)

well you run 14.7lbs (approx) you get 2x the power everything being equal, which it usually is not due to heat losses. 5 years exp in tuning it too....so bought new and FI'd right away + tuning....commendable, I didn't even know they had whipple for that 99 new engine out right away.

I have #19 to ever be produced it's been a good system, only thing is I wish they were easier to intercool

I saw your numbers, the Bronco is 5,000+ lbs also and a 4x4. your 14.9 may be close to 14 down here but the 89 mph you turned is odd for that time. I don't even want to comment on going to a bigger MAF just for an air tube to fit...that's screwy....but I doubt the stock MAF would handle your over 50% increase in power or injector increase properly....I don't work with Chevy's though so maybe they have more range in the stock metering....

Bigger injectors and the MAF, exhaust allowed that blower's power to be realized....you can't have it without the rest.

the low MPH comes from all the rotating mass (I run in 4x4 or I just spin all the way up to 3rd), But I have a 2.08 60ft and still have my stock converter
The stock MAF is fine on the GM's (in 2002 it went to a 85mm from 80mm), the injectors though the big problem with mine was in 99 they were only 21#, in 2000 they went to a 24# oh well, thats why I won't buy a 1st model year ever again

Didn't say there was exactly, I asked if that's what you were talking about. I am aware of the EFI/OBDII coders....I am also aware of many people buying them and still have the work all done by someone else....I don't know what the point is about the 'BOSH' injectors.....but in almost any fuel injected vehicle add on injectors are idiotic and only have to be done in unusual circumstances....dealing with GM or Fords there is a ton of injector selection available for almost all streetable power ranges.

no real point actually, I was just cranky last nite The truck injectors on the GM's are actually unfortunantly like no other, they are smaller so they fit with the extra height of the intake's (why I had to go with the 8.1 injectors)

 

[LAUST]

Originally posted by: Shockwave
I'll stick by my guns.
Chip
Exhaust
Intake
Fan

Blowers are GREAT for good HP gains, but a helluva lot more expensive then all the above combined. So, if you have a good amount of cash to spare and HP is your thing hell yes go forced induction. But, if you need bang for the buck and just want a bit more snap in the throttle....Well, I got 4 items listed that'll help with that

Again I never once said you should get a blower,

I just said I don't think you will see the power you will pay for in $$$ for a chip unless it's going to compliment a more then stock vehicle but thats my opinion is all