High End system upgrade opinions...

[Goi]

Hi guys...after living on my current 4 year old, upgraded to almost the max platform(see "The Rack" in my system rigs to get an idea), I decided its finally time to move on and perform the much needed(or at least wanted) system upgrade. Basically, I'm going almost all out for performance, but with of course some vague price limitation, so nothing too extravagant like 2GB of PC1066 RDRAM or 8 way RAID or anything. Here's what I'm thinking of.

CPU -P4 2.26/2.4/2.53/2.66 C1 stepping overclocked to 3+GHz(air cooled with Alpha/Swiftech P4 cooler)

Motherboard - i845PE chipset motherboard(ASUS P4PE, Abit BE-7 or Gigabyte 8PE667) or i850 chipset motherboard(ASUS P4T533 or Abit TH7-2)

Memory - 512MB-1GB DDR-SDRAM or PC1066 RDRAM(512MB if RDRAM, 1GB if DDR due to limited budget of course)

Graphics - ATI Radeon 9700 128MB(original ATI, Hercules or Gigabyte)

HDD - Single 80-120GB WD Caviar w/8MB buffer(not interested in RAID)

CD-RW - Iomega or TDK 48x/24x/48x CD-RW drive(Lite-Ons aren't available in my area)

Things I will reuse are

Soundcard - Turtle Beach Santa Cruz

Monitor - 21" Nokia 445XPro

DVD-ROM ASUS DVD-E616 16X/48X ATA100

Case/PSU - Modified Addtronics 6896A(older 3 fan intake version) w/Enermax EG465P-VE 431W PSU

Keyboard/Mice - IBM Model M, MS Intellimouse Optical 1.1A, Logitech First Mouse 3-button

FDD - NEC 1.44MB FDD

Any general opinions on the above setup? I have a few queries too...

1) Would it be moreworthhile to go for an i850 system with 512MB PC1066 RDRAM or an i845PE system with 1GB PC2700/PC3200 DDR-SDRAM?

2) Is PC3200 SDRAM(Corsair/Kingston) memory worth the price difference over the JEDEC approved PC2700 DDR-SDRAM? I've seen reviews that show some PC2700 DDR-SDRAM with the BH-6 memory chips clocking higher than other PC3200 DDR-SDRAM

3) Is it realistic to aim for 3+GHz with an air-cooled(Alpha/Swiftech) C1 stepping P4 2.26/2.53/2.66 CPU?

4) Are there any performance/quality differences between original ATI Radeon 9700 Pros and the ones built by Gigabyte/Hercules?

5) Which are the best i850/i845PE motherboards when it comes to overclocking and performance?

Thanks!

 

[Duvie]

I will say right of the bat...Put that Rdram notion out the window. For the cost and the fact the Granite Bay Dual channel DDR mobos should be out next week (at least in some reviews). Dual PC2100 should equal the performance of pc1066 on an i850e mobo so you can imagine you take a GB DCDDR mobo and oc an 1.8 to 3ghz and you will have around 166fsb and running dual pc2700 and you will be smoking.

Rdram may be the best right this moment...BUt!!! It is not the best platform to OC and it likley wont be the best overall platform in a few days....

I would get some Corsair PC3000 cas 2 and you will be set...Rumor has it many of the these DCDDR mobos are not coming with any better ratio then 1:1 so this will give you room as cas 2 up to 185-192fsb which should be plenty of room to work even with a 2.26ghz@3.2ghz...

 

[Goi]

Duvie, thanks for the suggestion. I wasn't thinking about DCDDR on Granite Bay because I didn't think it would be out anytime soon, since I haven't seen any reviews of any motherboards or even press releases of any motherboards based on this chipset, and I really hope to upgrade within this month since I've put off upgrading far too long(was originally intending to upgrade in June 02)

How far is Granite Bay away from being released to the market, i.e. being able to go to a store and buy an ASUS/Abit motherboard based on it? If its not that soon, would it be that much of a "downgrade" if I stuck with i845PE?

My other questions also require answers, thanks

 

[HendrixFan]

1)If you are looking for a high end upgrade, I would go for the Granite Bay chipset for the dual channel DDR RAM. Im guessing you'll have to wait another month or so, but I think it would certainly be worth the wait.

2)The Corsair Memory is certainly worth it IMO. With Corsair, you know the DDR3200 will do 400Mhz at CAS2, its worth the small increase in price to get the guaranteed speed (and warranty).

3)From the posts Ive seen in various forums, 3.0Ghz seems to be pretty much guaranteed from the C1s.

4)The only real difference is warranty. Right now (unless things have changed in the past week) all the 3rd party manufacturers are actually selling built by ATI chips. Any other heatsink differences arent really too important. Overclocking the GPU gives the biggest gains, and that has alot to do with the chip, just luck of the draw.



With a high end system, it might be worthwhile for you to get the Sony DRU 500A DVD combo burner. You might wanna go for a better monitor, since you are going high end. And you would certainly want a nice set of speakers, Logitech and Klipsch are good offerings.

 

[Goi]

Hmmn, that's 2 recommendations for Granite Bay...I guess I'll keep that as an option. Still waiting for the press releases and reviews to roll in though.

I don't need a DVD-burner, at least not just yet, CD-RWs are still the way to go for me, besides, the standards in recordable DVD format are mind boggling...I think I'll wait it out first before jumping on the bandwagon...as for my monitor...I think its pretty high end even though it ain't a flat panel...monitors are meant to last, which is why I got this model at the time, so I'm not changing it right now, a higher end monitor is gonna be way over my budget...as for speakers, I'm cool with my current ones too...

 

[Duvie]

I hear reviews will leak out maybe this monday and definitely expect them to be for purchase in about 2-3 weeks following that...definitely here for the xmas buying season....You need to remember to get matching pairs of sticks. You definitely need 2 sticks as opposed to one, but be safe by matching them perfectly....


I think the DCDDR mobo is a most wait, maybe so then anything of late....I could say same thing about hammer, but my trust in amd getting things out the door is severly limited and I am sure you dont want to wait possibly 6 months since it said to be late 1h of 2003....

 

[Goi]

Haha, I was never considering the Hammer. Back in 1H02 I was considering upgrading to a T-bred 2200+ with KT400 and a Parhelia, but all 3 turned out to be big disappointments, which is why I'm not skeptical on waiting any longer on technology that promises a lot but ends up short on delivering it. I guess I can wait till perhaps December, but mid December is the latest I wanna wait for. I sure hope Granite Bay ends up to be worth the wait?

 

[Duvie]

There are some leaked reports that show very high bandwidth numbers and you know how starved the p4 is for memory bandwidth.... I would expect i850e rdram performance a default levls but if you can get to dual pc2700 you should be around 4000 in sandra scores and if you get to pc3000 levels you will be 4500 or about 32% better then rim4200 rdram pc1066....This depending on the apps could be anywhere from 0-15percent better in performance. The pc1066 is only about 500 more points in sandra then pc800 and if you look at reviews it can mean ion some apps anywhere form 3-10 percent better in performance...So I think I am being conservative....

 

[Goi]

Cool, I'll wait for the reviews and the ETA confirmation before making a decision then. What about my other queries, especially #2,3,4?

 

[Duvie]

Here are some links....

I read in quite a few that 18th of November or this monday willbe the start of the reviews...PLus that many of the GB mobos will be released by end of the moth or about 2 weeks...

ASUS GB mobo pics
Some release info from a guy who has reviewed the mobos
Gigabyte GB pics
Some more release info
Some more info on releases and hint of reviews...

#2...yes cause you want ot make sure you can run in cas 2 and the corsair rated pc3000 anc pc3200 can do it at the higher levels...I can run mine cas 2 all the way up to 390mhz stable and tested...


#3...very reasonable as many are getting c1's to 3ghz level with air cooling...Did you see latest review had their 3.06ghz about 3.4ghz air cooled...Lukfilm's recent 2.0ghz p4s that did 3.2ghz was air cooled as well....

#4...I don't know on this, but I say you take a chance getting non built by ATI cards...That is my experience in the past in buying Le models...now at least they support many of the non built by ati cards well at ati's site...Rumor has they sometimes don't put the same speed and quality of ram on it...Likely oc higher with retail ATI card in my experience...

 

[Goi]

Thanks again Duvie, its great having people like you around the board

Anyway, based on those links, there are conflicting reports on when the boards will be available...I guess I'll have to wait a week or so to find out...

 

[npcom]

Originally posted by: Goi
Hi guys...after living on my current 4 year old, upgraded to almost the max platform(see "The Rack" in my system rigs to get an idea), I decided its finally time to move on and perform the much needed(or at least wanted) system upgrade. Basically, I'm going almost all out for performance, but with of course some vague price limitation, so nothing too extravagant like 2GB of PC1066 RDRAM or 8 way RAID or anything. Here's what I'm thinking of.

CPU -P4 2.26/2.4/2.53/2.66 C1 stepping overclocked to 3+GHz(air cooled with Alpha/Swiftech P4 cooler)

Motherboard - i845PE chipset motherboard(ASUS P4PE, Abit BE-7 or Gigabyte 8PE667) or i850 chipset motherboard(ASUS P4T533 or Abit TH7-2)

You said something about the AMD 2200+ being dissapointed... do look at how the 2800+ is comparing to the 3000 P4. They are neck and neck. Its your call. Also, ASUS has the Nforce board which gives it the edge.

[/quote]
HDD - Single 80-120GB WD Caviar w/8MB buffer(not interested in RAID)
[/quote]

I have these in a RAID... not as loud as I thought they would be. Fast yes.

CD-RW - Iomega or TDK 48x/24x/48x CD-RW drive(Lite-Ons aren't available in my area)

TDK... They are $90 at WalMart with a 10pak of HiSpeed CDRs. I've retired my 2year old TDK 12x to another computer.

Things I will reuse are

Soundcard - Turtle Beach Santa Cruz

Plan on adding the SB Audigy2, its very kick-ass. I have the Platinum version. Shoved the data cable into a round plastic tube.

Case/PSU - Modified Addtronics 6896A(older 3 fan intake version) w/Enermax EG465P-VE 431W PSU

This case is rather old... but its a well designed unit. There are plenty of junky new ones on the market. If you do look for an upgrade in the case (like for more HD space) look at the Antec and LianLi

Keyboard/Mice - IBM Model M, MS Intellimouse Optical 1.1A, Logitech First Mouse 3-button

I know you already have the ibm keyboard... just a warning to others. Other than the standard LOW-end IBM keyboard, DO NOT get ANY of the NEW internet or hi-end models!! I bought one on sale for $10 (new) and IT SUCKS! IBm thought it would be very helpful to put in "internet" page keys that also effect Windows applications (even without drivers). They are placed above the cursor LEFT & Right keys. Guess what happens half the time! (I used this keyboard on a work system) - keep pressing the wrong keys which have cause problems with programs being switched over and such. HOW STUPID, IBM! Otherwise, their $20 basic keyboards are very good for the price.

 

[Prodigy^]

keyboard and mouse are a personal thing, but i don't see why you should stick with a totally basic 3 button mouse. i just got the Logitech Dual Optical mouse, and i can definitely tell you that ball mice are dead. the dual optical is totally precise and feels excactly like a normal mouse in terms of acceleration, movement, etc. the scroll wheel is a tad tight to press, but i suspect that it'll get a bit looser with time, so i'm not worried. it feels good in the hand and the thumb button is very nice, much more than i expected. every thought about how much you use the 'Back' button in your browser? i have the thumb button linked to that now and i use it constantly. you can link it to practically any other button and function you like.

as for a keyboard, i don't know the IBM one, but i'm pretty happy with my logitech internet keyboard. the internet keys are worthless to most people, but they're sadly hard to avoid these days. they can be alright though, the volume control and mute buttons are nice. the wrist rest is a must these days and the keys feel nice to press.

 

[Goi]

Thanks for the suggestions/opinions guys...

You said something about the AMD 2200+ being dissapointed... do look at how the 2800+ is comparing to the 3000 P4. They are neck and neck. Its your call. Also, ASUS has the Nforce board which gives it the edge.

Yup, in fact I was pretty set on an Athlon XP system, but time after time intel has shown to have beaten AMD on the high end. The original T-bred 2200+ was a huge disappointment due to its high heat output, lacklustre performance and poor overclockability. The 2800+ systems won't be available where I am for quite some time, while the P4 2.8s are already available here. I'm in Singapore so mail order isn't an option. I have to go to a local B&M store to buy my hardware, so I'll have to go by what's the fastest they have available, and currently the fastest readily available AMD chip they have is stillthe 2200+, with the 2400+ and 2600+ just starting to appear on their inventory. If the 2800+ and nforce2 are available now they'd definitely be an option to me, but I think even then an overclocked P4 3+GHz would still outperform it.

I have these in a RAID... not as loud as I thought they would be. Fast yes

Unfortunately, even though this is a "high end system", going with 2 of these babies would really push the envelope of my budget beyond what I'm comfortable with

TDK... They are $90 at WalMart with a 10pak of HiSpeed CDRs. I've retired my 2year old TDK 12x to another computer.

From what I've heard both the TDK and the Iomega are clones of Lite-Ons, but I prefer the look of the Iomega, the TDK Cyclone's translucent blue tray doesn't go as well with my case. In any case they're the same price, and go for something like SG$105 or US$58 for the retail boxed version.

Plan on adding the SB Audigy2, its very kick-ass. I have the Platinum version. Shoved the data cable into a round plastic tube.

Heh, I'm sorry but I'm not a huge Creative fan. Everything up to the original Audigy has been unsatisfactory for me, and the jury's still out on the Audigy2. The TBSC has done good for me for the past year or so, so I think I'll keep it.

This case is rather old... but its a well designed unit. There are plenty of junky new ones on the market. If you do look for an upgrade in the case (like for more HD space) look at the Antec and LianLi

You bet its old, they even updated its front intake from the 3x80mm design I have to a single 120mm design...but I've spent so much time and effort modifying it that I've grown attached with it, and it runs really cool too. Perhaps if I had another few hundred bucks, I'd get the Coolermaster ATC-710, that's the most sexy case I've ever laid my eyes on...but that's for another project in the future...

I know you already have the ibm keyboard... just a warning to others. Other than the standard LOW-end IBM keyboard, DO NOT get ANY of the NEW internet or hi-end models!!

Thanks for the heads up, the IBM Model M however, is a vintage 1984 model which I bought for the price of something like $1 at a local flea market I love its design, feel and features so much that the only way you're getting it off me is to pry it from my cold dead hands.

keyboard and mouse are a personal thing, but i don't see why you should stick with a totally basic 3 button mouse.

Yeah I know, but as you've said its a personal thing...as you can see I'm using 2 mice though, I have the MS Intellimouse Optical 1.1A with the 6KHz scanrate and 5 buttons for my everyday usage...the Logitech 3 button is for gaming...I know it sounds weird, you're probably wondering what a demented guy I am for using a 3 button ball mouse for gaming when I have a Intellimouse Optical, but that's just me...I play better with 3 buttons...I love the scroll wheel for everyday usage, but when it comes to gaming I just need the middle button(and no the dual function scroll wheel doesn't cut it for me unfortunately). It'd be nice if Logitech came up with an optical version of their 3 button mouse though...

Thanks again!