High End Air or Low End Water?

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: beatle
It's really a point of diminishing returns for many. Some people with more money and the desire for an extra 200-300 mhz will not be satisfied with air. For me, spending $40-$45 for a good HSF is my point of diminishing returns. If the next step is a $200 watercooling setup, I'll pocket that $150 and put it into another component.

The comment about torque on the motherboard is mostly unfounded. If there were actually such rampant issues with a large heatsink causing damage to a motherboard or chip, there would be posts all over the place and not just people saying "yeah, I heard about a guy whose motherboard snapped in half from that heatsink."

uhh, ive done it. So have many others. Usually the result of transporting your machine from 1 place to another.

There used to be threads relating to this topic a while back on AT. And there were a few who snaped there boards in half.

Also sometimes when loading and unload, and you happen to drop your PC (in my case it was 1inch) by accident. It can break something.

Not to mention the most important factor, on a quadcore having that much torque on the side will give you unstable coretemps. <meaning your coretemps wont flatten out even on all 4 cores>

So yes its very possible, and it was also one of my main reasons on why i migrated to water. Also another reason when i shake my head when people ask for heat sinks which dont require a backplate.




<not related to the quote i quotted at top>
Well at any rate, the OP's low end waterkit, isnt even low end. Whats funny is how you guys are all passing judgements on water without owning one.

200-300 added mhz, may not look like much, but how about effectively doubling your processor's life and stability? Also how about not worrying about ambient factors like a hot day, or summer?

Watercooling isnt a something everyone needs. I even recomended the OP with a high end air cooler, however, its funny how people who know so little end up passing so many judgements on a product they have little to no knowledge about.

Ask any recient migration owner about there watersetup. You wont find anyone who migrated to a decient setup within the past year wishing that they could go back to AIR.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: aigomorla

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal

Originally posted by: MetaDFF
Since you are looking at an all-in-one water solution, this Anandtech article summarizes the performance of air versus all-in-one water cooling quite nicely.

"The next time a computer friend tells you water cooling performs better or is quieter than air cooling, tell him his information is out of date. Air coolers have evolved to the point where a top $50 to $75 air cooler will normally outperform a water cooling kit at $300 or below. The best air coolers are much cheaper, easier to install, lower in noise, and provide better overclocking results than water cooling kits that are up to six times more expensive.

However, water cooling is still very desirable if you also want to cool a hot video card or a hot chipset, since almost every available water cooling kit allows the easy addition of VGA and chipset blocks. For many this one feature, the flexibility of additional water blocks, is reason enough to run water instead."

With a Thermalright Ultra Extreme 120 and a Q6600 G0 stepping you should be able to easily hit 3.2 GHz on air.

Water cooling the CPU will also cause the PWM, NB, SB, and RAMs to overheat. A high quality down-draft air unit is more than adequate to push a capable Q6600 up to 3.6GHz.

Slap on a pair of 120 x 38mm medium speed Panaflos plus a side vent and you'll be fine with any quad CPU.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...s&Item=N82E16835103026

so your saying its easier to get 3.6ghz on air then water? All it takes a little fan over your board to keep temps in check. And thats if you dont watercool your NB.
Also, 3.6ghz on air during summer isnt very recomended. I cant see how water would lose to air when your talking about high overclocks in the 3.6ghz range.

Also you know how loud that fan screams when you turn it up on high? im sorry, i rather enjoy my hearing. Also i cant believe you recomended him the gemini. Do you not understand the many issues that lies with TORQUE in mounting something that massive sideways?

Come on serpent, this is the first time ive seen you give such bad advice. What happened?

Originally posted by: kenrippy
OP, you made the right choice in going with air cooling. i ran a custom w/c system a few years ago. it wasn't any quieter than a high end air cooler, and some maintenance was required which makes it not worth it IMO.

A few years ago? how many years ago? what parts? you are aware blocks have changed so much in the past few years. Not to mention the saturation in product line for h2o products. I dont see why you had a bad experience unless you were running a koolance, thermaltake, or some half created custom kit.




In short, people with proper migrations, ones who set them up right, and do spend a little time on them, not to mention enjoy having there rig at the cutting edge, have yet to go back to air once they step into water.

So i dont understand where you guys getting all these statements from. Whats even more funny is that your taking that article wesley wrote like a bible, when i just SHOWED you guys a link that would destory ANY AIR product under 200 dollars.

The bending moment at the MB is zero the top of the CPU cooler is lockwired to the case. Physics 101.

Hot NB and PWM will normally cause instability. Q6600 can cruise at 70C as long as Vcore is limited to about 110% of VID. It is impossible for one little fan to cool the PWM, RAM, NB, and SB.

Those medium speed 120 x 38mm Panaflos are not loud at 2100 rpm (honest 36 dBA or 39dBA with two fans). The major source of noise is from the air turbulence @ +80 CFM. Unless one is Priming 24/7, the PC should be whisper quiet under normal use.

 

[SerpentRoyal]

Originally posted by: beatle
It's really a point of diminishing returns for many. Some people with more money and the desire for an extra 200-300 mhz will not be satisfied with air. For me, spending $40-$45 for a good HSF is my point of diminishing returns. If the next step is a $200 watercooling setup, I'll pocket that $150 and put it into another component.

The comment about torque on the motherboard is mostly unfounded. If there were actually such rampant issues with a large heatsink causing damage to a motherboard or chip, there would be posts all over the place and not just people saying "yeah, I heard about a guy whose motherboard snapped in half from that heatsink."

Don't forget that the average Joe does not have any formal training in physical science. Each mounting hole can easily absorb 10 lbs of shear load. We have four holes, with a total carrying capacity of 40 lbf (~ factor of safety of 20). By tethering the CPU cooler to the case, one can effectively create ZERO bending moment about the MB.

There is no low or high cycle fatigue. Translation, unless there's an earthquake, no harm will come to the MB or any component on the MB.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Only one thing I'd like to add, Shang, ol' man.

First, I should check more posts here and look at some new reviews, but last time I checked, the TR Ultra-120-Extreme was just about THE best.

HOWEVER . . . . . You should get a decent metric ruler and measure the distance between the Antec case side-panel and the top of the processor's IHS. Then compare that distance with the height of the TR-Ultra 120, which you can find on the TR website or in a reseller's posted specs for that cooler.

If you lack sufficient clearance, go with a ThermalRight Ultima 90, or make the same comparison for a Sunbeam Tuniq cooler.

With a G0 stepping, you shouldn't have trouble getting to 3.4 Ghz while keeping the VCORE at a setting that will be comfortable with air-cooling.

If you want to spend the extra ducats for water, you can go higher. Just don't fool yourself with lower temperatures and try kicking up the VCORE too much beyond 1.45V . . .

. . . . unless you won't worry much about the Q6600's longevity . . . . .

Some posts here -- referring to Intel data -- suggest that the VCORE can be bumped as high as 1.5V. Aigo has his set at around 1.456. Mine -- with a TR-Ultra-120-EX -- is set to 1.413V with the B3 stepping. I'm pretty comfortable now with a 3.204 Ghz over-clock, although Aigo has teased me with the idea of water-cooling my rig, and the case is definitely ideal for it.

Interesting choice of a motherboard, by the way. . . . . Doesn't one incarnation of the Maximus have a built-in water-cooling block for the chipset and other mobo components?

 

[MetaDFF]

This might sound silly, but it seems that moving a computer with a large air cooler is bad because it can torque the motherboard and break it. So, why not just flip the computer on it's side such that the heatsink is sitting vertical relative to the motherboard before moving it? If the the heat-sink is mounted with a back-plate it should be pretty safe even if it is jostled around a bit while moving.

 

[RallyMaster]

Get what a cheap Asian would get: a decent 20 dollar heatsink, some loud 120mm Thermaltakes, and earmuffs. From what I remember in Shanghai, they have a lot of Cooler Master products and a lot of Thermaltake shit. If you know anyone in Suzhou, there's a guy there that sells a lot of computer cooling crap and gets it from some big Cooler Master distributor. From what my cousin tells me, he's got some good stock and got me my Cooler Master 4-in-3 device for less than the retail price in the States. I have his MSN as well if you want to contact him.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Rally, just as an aside. You don't know "where our friend Shanghai is comin' from."

It may be easy to refer to Chinese cyber-products as "schlock," just as people did with Japanese wares during my pre-adolescent youth.

Just remember that half the hard-disks and a pile of other things are made in the Far East.

The problem today with Chinese goods -- notably raised in recent news about "toys" -- is quality-control. I've posted my rage about Sunbeam's Theta-101 fan-controller. But this is something that can eventually be fixed.

I DO agree on the matter of some ThermalTake products. But since my Chinese students from the '90s still send me Chinese New-Year e-mail greetings, and I relish the memories of respect shown by those students, it's easy for me to urge tact and sensitivity.

 

[RallyMaster]

Do understand that I am Chinese and nearly all of my computer parts are made in China. In fact, both my Abit motherboards and all of my Logitech mice were made in my hometown (see Anandtech's Abit NF7-S article from way back). I have not had nearly as great of an experience with Thermaltake parts as with CM. Chinese people aren't the worst people in the world, but they certainly aren't the best. Profits always mean more to the contractor than the safety of their workers and the satisfaction of their customers. This is how it was, this is how it is, and this is how it always will be.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Well, that's human nature -- something quite pervasive on either side of the Pacific or either side of the Atlantic. We could really get into a discussion of political and economic philosophy on that note. I speculated that there might be a cultural AND historical reason why (Japanese) QC is a bit lax in mainland China's industry. But that's very likely to change.

TT has produced some innovative things, like their "smart" fans, and a few heatpipe coolers. But they may put people off with the glitzy product color-themes and marketing approach. Some of the cases are pretty good, though. I still covet that Tai-Chi . . . . I just don' wanna pay for it!

As for "worst . . . best," I have a pro-Asian bias. The teaching years were very good years.

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Well, that's human nature -- something quite pervasive on either side of the Pacific or either side of the Atlantic. We could really get into a discussion of political and economic philosophy on that note. I speculated that there might be a cultural AND historical reason why (Japanese) QC is a bit lax in mainland China's industry. But that's very likely to change.

TT has produced some innovative things, like their "smart" fans, and a few heatpipe coolers. But they may put people off with the glitzy product color-themes and marketing approach. Some of the cases are pretty good, though. I still covet that Tai-Chi . . . . I just don' wanna pay for it!

As for "worst . . . best," I have a pro-Asian bias. The teaching years were very good years.

Tai chi's were nice in there time. Now theres no way i would pick one over a MM U2 or a LL Mod Cube.

@Rally, dont blame the country, blame the contractor. Theres a lot of great stuff from china. The main factor is cost. My uncle does business with chinese manufactorers, and they produce great products for my uncles company. The QOA are excellent, and the price is something that cant be matched on the state side.

So i really think its more contractor then the country.

 

[Shanghaiguy]

I thought I would update everyone on how my overclock turned out.

I am currently running at 3.2GHz with a 400MHz FSB and memory running at 1066MHz. My CPU voltage is actually under stock, but I had to pump up the northbridge voltage a couple notches to become stable. This setup passed 12 hours of Prime95 and 8 hours of MemTest86+.

I will start with the good news. My CPU cores idle under 30C and only got up to around 45C during the 12 hour Prime95 run. Ambient temperature was about 20C.

The bad news is that my northbridge runs rather hot. It got up to 55C during my Prime95 run. This is rather high, but doesn't seem to have affected stability.

I think air cooling is sufficient for this level of overclocking, but if I ever decide to do more aggressive overclocking, I will definitely water cool at least the northbridge.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

 

[Owls]

I used watercooling for about 4 years. I finally ditched it in favor of good air cooling instead. I simply can't be hassled into looking after fluid levels anymore, having 2 cars is enough.

 

[aigomorla]

wow talk about thread revival.

this thread was made back when the review for the compact 120 came out.

Well a bit different from now. When the unit first came out it was priced at 169.99

You can now find the unit for around 149.99 if you look hard enough.

And yes the TRUE will keep up with it.


However if you guys step up in radiator, there is no way air can keep up.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Please remember that low end water is worse then high end air.... Anandtech prooved this a while back when they did some tests. If you do go water, do it right, it will be a little pricey, but you will have a very good setup. If price is a factor, go high end air...

 

[aigomorla]

Originally posted by: Fallen Kell
If price is a factor, go high end air...

definitely always excellent advice.