Hezbollah pagers explode all over Lebanon injuring 1000s

[Greenman]

This is typically how peace deals are made.
Go to war, one side is better at bombing than the other side. Side that isn't as good at bombing eventually has enough and signs peace treaty written by the side that is better at bombing.

This is pretty much it. Go back to WW2 and bombing civilian targets was expected. Now the primary target is command and control (for the U.S. anyway). There is always collateral damage, there is always civilian deaths.

 

[fskimospy]

A US ally did it therefore it's not terrorism. This is the Rules Based International Order in action

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836105843739160641

shocker

I get the sense that neither you nor the guy you’re linking to understand what you’re reading. lol.

 

[Brovane]

Lmao... Imagine being excused for bombing your neighbor into a 'peace deal...' What a joke the US has been in this part of the world.

Nobody officially in the US government is going to say anything remotely negative about Israeli right now at this point in the US election cycle.

 

[Jaskalas]

Hezbollah continues rocket attacks into Israel.
Wonder what good striking Lebanon was. Fewer rockets and fewer people to launch them?

Also, I was surprised by the supposed target. Is that profile of Nazareth accurate, mostly Arab Muslims and Christians?
That would make Nazareth a strange target for Hezbollah to attack, no?

Hezbollah strikes Nazareth in rocket attacks; fires break out​

"Another barrage of Hezbollah rockets at Nazareth. The hometown of Jesus, a town which is 70% Muslim & 30% Christian and almost entirely Arab," noted American Evangelical leader Johnnie Moore, president of the Congress of Christian Leaders, on social media.​

 

[KMFJD]

Terrorism is ok when we or our 'allies' do it, got it...

 

[fskimospy]

Terrorism is ok when we or our 'allies' do it, got it...

You would agree that members of Hezbollah are legitimate military targets, correct?

 

[WelshBloke]

Terrorism is ok when we or our 'allies' do it, got it...

I'm not sure I'd class this as terrorism. It was very targeted at members of Hezbollah. It's not like they made random electronics in the hands of random citizens explode.

 

[fskimospy]

I'm not sure I'd class this as terrorism. It was very targeted at members of Hezbollah. It's not like they made random electronics in the hands of random citizens explode.

Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians in order to achieve a political objective. This was basically the opposite of that.

Israel does plenty of bad things that merit criticism. It’s also perfectly reasonable to question the wisdom of this in a larger sense. This isn’t terrorism though. Some people are so blinded by their hatred of Israel they have lost the ability to make that distinction.

 

[WelshBloke]

Terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians in order to achieve a political objective. This was basically the opposite of that.

Israel does plenty of bad things that merit criticism. It’s also perfectly reasonable to question the wisdom of this in a larger sense. This isn’t terrorism though. Some people are so blinded by their hatred of Israel they have lost the ability to make that distinction.

I agree with you 100%, I was just using the usual UK understatement.

It's easy to criticise Israel, and recently they deserve it, but this targeting of Hezbollah shouldn't be one of the things they are critiqued about. And, honestly, I'm in awe of how they pulled it off.

 

[manly]

This is typically how peace deals are made.
Go to war, one side is better at bombing than the other side. Side that isn't as good at bombing eventually has enough and signs peace treaty written by the side that is better at bombing.

How often do terrorist organizations sign peace deals?

I mean when you say "against a US ally" would that include proscribed terrorist organisations?

I definitely don't agree with the NYTs there. They absolutely aren't party to any discussions about the how's and why's of this operation.

Honestly I'm not a supporter of recent Israeli actions (I think that the way they have conducted the Gaza invasion absolutely criminal, and their greater treatment of the Palestinian territories appalling) but this isn't moving my outrageometer needle much at all.
It was very targeted against a terrorist organisation that's actively targeting Israel and it did that with very little collateral damage. If they'd taken out that many people with drone strikes there'd be orders of magnitude more civilian casualties. Hell if I was a Lebanese citizen it's the air strikes that are happening now that I'd be worried about not the exploding electronics!

It's a slippery slope. You might be right about this op, but that's somewhat unknowable unless you know how many civilians were "collateral damage." What if it was 1/3 ?

The EXACT same argument is being applied in Gaza, that Israel is targeting Hamas but civilians just happen to be human shields. Tens of thousands of them. So it's all Hamas fault...

I'm not saying this was terrorism, but I was criticizing the kudos being given. I get it, if you're into spycraft and covert ops, then this is high level stuff. All I'm saying is if the FSB or Iran was the perp, our opinions would be less congratulatory.

FWIW Friday's airstrike in Beirut was also precisely "targeted" at Hebzollah commanders, but the missile doesn't discriminate when it hits an urban residential building.

The Lebanese health minister, Firass Abiad, said at a news conference Saturday that among the 31 dead are three children and seven women. Three Syrian citizens were killed, he said, and 68 people wounded.

 

[WelshBloke]

How often do terrorist organizations sign peace deals?

Northern Ireland peace process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's a slippery slope. You might be right about this op, but that's somewhat unknowable unless you know how many civilians were "collateral damage." What if it was 1/3 ?

I hate slippery slope arguments. Judge people on what they do, not on what someone else might do in the future!

The EXACT same argument is being applied in Gaza, that Israel is targeting Hamas but civilians just happen to be human shields. Tens of thousands of them. So it's all Hamas fault...

It would be diffucult, and a definate stretch, to equate this specific exploding pagers operation and the indescriminate bombing of Gaza!

I'm not saying this was terrorism, but I was criticizing the kudos being given. I get it, if you're into spycraft and covert ops, then this is high level stuff. All I'm saying is if the FSB or Iran was the perp, our opinions would be less congratulatory.

I like this operation on two levels. Theres the technical side of it, but also the fact that a lot less innocents got killed! (Obviously this is just the exploding electronics not the follow uo air strikes)

FWIW Friday's airstrike in Beirut was also precisely "targeted" at Hebzollah commanders, but the missile doesn't discriminate when it hits an urban residential building.

Well thats exactly why I prefer the exploding pagers and am on side with that.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I'm not sure I'd class this as terrorism. It was very targeted at members of Hezbollah. It's not like they made random electronics in the hands of random citizens explode.

And if one or more had been on airliners?

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

This was an indiscriminate act, without regard for who may have been nearby.

 

[fskimospy]

And if one or more had been on airliners?

The airplane would have been fine?

 

[fskimospy]

This was an indiscriminate act, without regard for who may have been nearby.

It was literally the opposite of an indiscriminate act.

 

[manly]

Northern Ireland peace process - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I hate slippery slope arguments. Judge people on what they do, not on what someone else might do in the future!

It would be diffucult, and a definate stretch, to equate this specific exploding pagers operation and the indescriminate bombing of Gaza!

I like this operation on two levels. Theres the technical side of it, but also the fact that a lot less innocents got killed! (Obviously this is just the exploding electronics not the follow uo air strikes)

Well thats exactly why I prefer the exploding pagers and am on side with that.

So nearly 30 years ago. Doesn't seem like terrorists often sue for peace?

Nobody is equating this op to the wanton destruction of Gaza. My point was that Israel is using the exact same excuse argument: they are solely targeting terrorists and civilians just happen to be in the way. Well that's just too bad.

Finally I don't think you're wrong, I just feel it's more nuanced than saying this was a clean operation. We can't know unless we have an accurate assessment of the collateral damage. I agree with you that compared with dropping bombs in urban areas, it's preferred. And obviously compared to what's happened in Gaza over the past year, this is not so bad.

The idea of deescalation through escalation seems rather ludicrous though, unless you're absolutely certain Iran has no intention of throwing the region into utter chaos. Even if that is true, escalation tends to increase risks rather than decrease them.

 

[WelshBloke]

So nearly 30 years ago. Doesn't seem like terrorists often sue for peace?

That's just the first one that popped into my head tbh. At the end of the day you want terrorist groups to stop doing the terrorism thing. So your options are to kill them until there are none left, kill them till they give up or let them kill civilians.

Nobody is equating this op to the wanton destruction of Gaza. My point was that Israel is using the exact same excuse argument: they are solely targeting terrorists and civilians just happen to be in the way. Well that's just too bad.

Israel isn't making that excuse. Israel (although it's obvious it was them) is not commenting on it.
But that is a valid argument to make. There is no way of dealing with a massive terrorist organisation that isn't going to impinge on civilians. What you want is for the minimum amount of civilians to be harmed, and I believe that those exploding pagers was a way of doing that. If you can think of an effective alternative that does less harm to civilians I'd be interested in hearing it.

Finally I don't think you're wrong, I just feel it's more nuanced than saying this was a clean operation. We can't know unless we have an accurate assessment of the collateral damage. I agree with you that compared with dropping bombs in urban areas, it's preferred. And obviously compared to what's happened in Gaza over the past year, this is not so bad.

I think that if there were massive amounts of civilian casualties we would definitely have heard about it. Hezbollah would not be keeping that quiet.

The idea of deescalation through escalation seems rather ludicrous though, unless you're absolutely certain Iran has no intention of throwing the region into utter chaos. Even if that is true, escalation tends to increase risks rather than decrease them.

I'm not sure there is a de-escalation that involves Hezbollah and Hamas, not when Moscow and Iran are pulling their strings.
I do believe that the Israeli government are partly to blame for the mess in the Palestinian territories but I don't think that Hamas or Hezbollah want there to be a peaceful solution that involves Israel being there.

 

[Zorba]

I think the key phrase is Terror Group.

Hezbollah Leader Calls Israeli Pager Attacks a 'Declaration of War' as Jewish State Bombs Terror Group's Strongholds.​

So as long as you call them a terrorist group, you can commit acts of terror against them?

 

[Jaskalas]

So as long as you call them a terrorist group, you can commit acts of terror against them?

So long as said group has been actively bombing your country since Oct 8th, 2023.
Retaliation and escalation to put an end to the active threat should be expected.
The two sides have been in a limited shooting war for the past year. It was bound to lead to something worse.

To say nothing of the longstanding history, and Iran's arming and coordinating of Hezbollah to make it a larger military threat.
This violence does not come out of nowhere.

Like every other theater of war in the world, the cities of Lebanon shall be bombed out husks before this war is over.

 

[Zorba]

So long as said group has been actively bombing your country since Oct 8th, 2023.
Retaliation and escalation to put an end to the active threat should be expected.
The two sides have been in a limited shooting war for the past year. It was bound to lead to something worse.

To say nothing of the longstanding history, and Iran's arming and coordinating of Hezbollah to make it a larger military threat.
This violence does not come out of nowhere.

Like every other theater of war in the world, the cities of Lebanon shall be bombed out husks before this war is over.

If the roles were reversed everyone would be calling this an act of terrorism. It's tit for tat violence.

 

[WelshBloke]

It's tit for tat violence.

I suppose that that's what armed conflicts are!

 

[fskimospy]

If the roles were reversed everyone would be calling this an act of terrorism. It's tit for tat violence.

Why would they do that? I’m pretty sure the general population is not using pagers.

 

[Moonbeam]

So as long as you call them a terrorist group, you can commit acts of terror against them?

But you can get by pretty OK if God is on your side. You just have to kill off the devil possessed. Calling them rats and vermin will work too. There are lots f ways to get self hate to be projected.

 

[Zorba]

Why would they do that? I’m pretty sure the general population is not using pagers.

I don't understand what you are trying to say? If Hezbollah planted bombs in devices used by Israeli government and/or military and blew them up, the entire western world would be calling it terrorism. No one would say "Well those were legitimate military targets."

 

[Brovane]

I don't understand what you are trying to say? If Hezbollah planted bombs in devices used by Israeli government and/or military and blew them up, the entire western world would be calling it terrorism. No one would say "Well those were legitimate military targets."

Hezbollah is designated a terrorist group by the US. So any military action undertaken by them is designated as terrorism.