I understand a lot better now, thanks for the clarification.
Reason is in fact why I have faith. I am an engineer and as such extremely logical by nature. Similar to your odds vs. winning the lottery, to me when I look at the world (the mountains, the human body, all of nature) I see design. I cannot logically believe that it was an accident. Therefore it makes sense to me that I would want a relationship with my Creator and my faith follows from there.
Zeeky Boogy Doog
Platinum Member
- Mar 31, 2004
- 2,295
- 1
- 0
So
Lifer
- Jul 2, 2001
- 25,923
- 17
- 81
You know, I don't really respect people who believe -- at least, I don't think that religious belief is equally rational to disbelief, but I DO respect their right to believe whatever they want, based upon the principles of our constitution, and have never said an unkind word aloud to anyone religious about their beliefs.
Saint Nick
Lifer
- Jan 21, 2005
- 17,722
- 6
- 81
Jeff7 touched on some of these topics already, but here is my addition to it.
First things first. Agnostic does not believe in a God/higher power. They believe that this question is unknown and/or unknowable. If you believe in a God/higher power, by definition you cannot be Agnostic. Atheism is the belief in the non-existence of a God/higher power.
I am a cross between existentialist and agnostic (if I would have to fit into a religious belief), and I have seen numerous things religious people tell me all the time about it.
Q: Who/what created the Big Bang?
A: Well if you go with string theory (more specifically M-theory), it states that there are "branes" which act like a big sheet of cloth in the wind. When these "branes" touch they create a Big Bang like explosion. If you ask a religious person about this when they say "well the Big Bang didn't just happen from nothingness", they then say "well God created it." This is a circular arguement for both sides. No matter what science says, there will always be unknowns as to how (insert whatever event here) got started. Science will continue to look for the cause, but religious people will still just say "God created it." I return with the same question, "Who created God then?" I know this is a circular arguement, but I use it to show a point that this question is not one science nor religion can ever answer. There will always be "who/what came before or created this?" Both sides need to stop this debate. It doesn't get anywhere. The reason I side with science on this topic is because I look at religions track record with this (Helio-centric universe, age of the Earth, there was one a few years back but I forget exactly what it was, etc) has been less then stellar.
Q: What happens when you die?
A: There is no question as to what happens to your physical form after death, so the only question is about a metaphysical form. Science doesn't usually touch on any kind of metaphysical happenings, because you cannot prove/disprove it. Religion tells you of some kind of afterlife, but to me this is just a comforting thought to help ease the thought of death. I personally have no issues with death nor am I afraid of it. It will happen. Living my life worrying about what happens after just makes me lose out on chances to enjoy the living part. What happens after, will happen regardless of actions I take in this life. Religion tells you if you devote your life to a God/higher power in this life, you will be rewarded in the next. I cannot allow myself to believe this. It is the biggest gamble ever. You sacrifice what is real, for the hope that you will be rewarded after you leave this reality and plane of existence. If I am "punished" by God/higher powers for it, so be it but that will just show me that I made the right choice in not following their faith. I want no part of a religion where a being punishes those who do not believe because they have no hard evidence of their existence.
Q: All the geniuses of this world and in the past believe in God so why don't you?
A: First off show me evidence of this. Give me proof of this statement. I will assume you can (and do), and my response is that doesn't mean they are right and I should fall in line. If they strap a bomb to their chest and blow themself up because they were promised a harem of women in the afterlife, does that mean you would also? Bandwagon approaches are not a good way to prove your point, sorry.
Statement: I am 23, and am not in a warzone so I don't have to worry about death.
Comment: I am 21, and live in Ohio but I still live my life as if I could die before my lunch break (in about 10 minutes). You never know what will happen, so this stuff is something you might want to think about. If not when you're burning in Hell because you didn't believe you won't know why you didn't think about this stuff while alive
.
Statement: Believing in god (any god) gives you spirtual support and gives you strength and faith to make it through hard times.
Comment: It definitely can do that. I would rather look inwards for that strength in rough times. I view religion as a crutch for those who use this statement as a reason for their belief. Some people are really "saved" by their religion, but I personally view it as they are missing something in their life/personality that religion fills in for them. There is nothing wrong with this, but I personally view it as a character weakness because I don't have the same need for something else to help me through. The one possible exception would be a significant other, but I don't NEED them to make it through tough times. They just help get my mind off difficult times, but I still could do it without them.
Q: So you are trying to win the lottery by not playing?
A: I am not partaking in it that is correct. If I play and choose incorrectly (which odds are I will), then all I can say is "God/higher power forgive me for making a mistake in dedicating my life to an incorrect belief" and hope I am forgiven. If I do not participate I can say "God/higher power, instead of dedicating my life to a faith that is most likely not correct, I dedicated my life to living my life to the fullest extent possible. I died knowing that I enjoyed life, enriched those around me, and tried to make the world I came into a better place when I leave it. If I am to be punished eternally for that, so be it, but I will not have any regrets for how I lived my life." Izusaga's post on 07/14/2008 01:25 AM is spot on with this post.
Q: How do you not see God/higher power all around you? I see it in my kids/pets/friends/family/etc.
A: I see them as life. I see them as friends and companions on this journey or life. I do not see any kind of "spiritual" aspect to them. They are a biological entity, that is by our definition "alive" (even though just a machine that is programmed to do certain things, namely reproduce). I am glad that you have a way to see your God/higher power, but all I see is the physical form. I do not see any metaphysical part to them.
Q: How can you not see the complexity in our world as proof of a higher power?
A: Frankly I see it as dumb luck. If you refer back to the first question, I think we live in a multiverse in which every possible action and reality exists. Ours just happens to have our set of rules. I view another where the laws of physics don't exist and there is nothingness as well. This also relates to choosing an "incorrect" faith. Okay, I will assume for a minute that I believe in a higher power because this can't be "dumb luck." Now what religion do I choose? The odds of picking one that is not the "right" one are just too high. Refer back to the lottery question on this.
Q: The OPs question do you wish you could believe?
A: No. I do not wish I could believe in something. That would be a false belief (which IMO is worse then having true belief), because I would have to accept that. I cannot. I cannot wish for belief in something I cannot accept. If I am ever given proof in my life of a God/higher power, then I have no issues believing that because I would be able to accept it as true. I do not plan on this happening, and until it does I am going to live my life without devoting it to a God/higher power.
First things first. Agnostic does not believe in a God/higher power. They believe that this question is unknown and/or unknowable. If you believe in a God/higher power, by definition you cannot be Agnostic. Atheism is the belief in the non-existence of a God/higher power.
I am a cross between existentialist and agnostic (if I would have to fit into a religious belief), and I have seen numerous things religious people tell me all the time about it.
Q: Who/what created the Big Bang?
A: Well if you go with string theory (more specifically M-theory), it states that there are "branes" which act like a big sheet of cloth in the wind. When these "branes" touch they create a Big Bang like explosion. If you ask a religious person about this when they say "well the Big Bang didn't just happen from nothingness", they then say "well God created it." This is a circular arguement for both sides. No matter what science says, there will always be unknowns as to how (insert whatever event here) got started. Science will continue to look for the cause, but religious people will still just say "God created it." I return with the same question, "Who created God then?" I know this is a circular arguement, but I use it to show a point that this question is not one science nor religion can ever answer. There will always be "who/what came before or created this?" Both sides need to stop this debate. It doesn't get anywhere. The reason I side with science on this topic is because I look at religions track record with this (Helio-centric universe, age of the Earth, there was one a few years back but I forget exactly what it was, etc) has been less then stellar.
Q: What happens when you die?
A: There is no question as to what happens to your physical form after death, so the only question is about a metaphysical form. Science doesn't usually touch on any kind of metaphysical happenings, because you cannot prove/disprove it. Religion tells you of some kind of afterlife, but to me this is just a comforting thought to help ease the thought of death. I personally have no issues with death nor am I afraid of it. It will happen. Living my life worrying about what happens after just makes me lose out on chances to enjoy the living part. What happens after, will happen regardless of actions I take in this life. Religion tells you if you devote your life to a God/higher power in this life, you will be rewarded in the next. I cannot allow myself to believe this. It is the biggest gamble ever. You sacrifice what is real, for the hope that you will be rewarded after you leave this reality and plane of existence. If I am "punished" by God/higher powers for it, so be it but that will just show me that I made the right choice in not following their faith. I want no part of a religion where a being punishes those who do not believe because they have no hard evidence of their existence.
Q: All the geniuses of this world and in the past believe in God so why don't you?
A: First off show me evidence of this. Give me proof of this statement. I will assume you can (and do), and my response is that doesn't mean they are right and I should fall in line. If they strap a bomb to their chest and blow themself up because they were promised a harem of women in the afterlife, does that mean you would also? Bandwagon approaches are not a good way to prove your point, sorry.
Statement: I am 23, and am not in a warzone so I don't have to worry about death.
Comment: I am 21, and live in Ohio but I still live my life as if I could die before my lunch break (in about 10 minutes). You never know what will happen, so this stuff is something you might want to think about. If not when you're burning in Hell because you didn't believe you won't know why you didn't think about this stuff while alive
.Statement: Believing in god (any god) gives you spirtual support and gives you strength and faith to make it through hard times.
Comment: It definitely can do that. I would rather look inwards for that strength in rough times. I view religion as a crutch for those who use this statement as a reason for their belief. Some people are really "saved" by their religion, but I personally view it as they are missing something in their life/personality that religion fills in for them. There is nothing wrong with this, but I personally view it as a character weakness because I don't have the same need for something else to help me through. The one possible exception would be a significant other, but I don't NEED them to make it through tough times. They just help get my mind off difficult times, but I still could do it without them.
Q: So you are trying to win the lottery by not playing?
A: I am not partaking in it that is correct. If I play and choose incorrectly (which odds are I will), then all I can say is "God/higher power forgive me for making a mistake in dedicating my life to an incorrect belief" and hope I am forgiven. If I do not participate I can say "God/higher power, instead of dedicating my life to a faith that is most likely not correct, I dedicated my life to living my life to the fullest extent possible. I died knowing that I enjoyed life, enriched those around me, and tried to make the world I came into a better place when I leave it. If I am to be punished eternally for that, so be it, but I will not have any regrets for how I lived my life." Izusaga's post on 07/14/2008 01:25 AM is spot on with this post.
Q: How do you not see God/higher power all around you? I see it in my kids/pets/friends/family/etc.
A: I see them as life. I see them as friends and companions on this journey or life. I do not see any kind of "spiritual" aspect to them. They are a biological entity, that is by our definition "alive" (even though just a machine that is programmed to do certain things, namely reproduce). I am glad that you have a way to see your God/higher power, but all I see is the physical form. I do not see any metaphysical part to them.
Q: How can you not see the complexity in our world as proof of a higher power?
A: Frankly I see it as dumb luck. If you refer back to the first question, I think we live in a multiverse in which every possible action and reality exists. Ours just happens to have our set of rules. I view another where the laws of physics don't exist and there is nothingness as well. This also relates to choosing an "incorrect" faith. Okay, I will assume for a minute that I believe in a higher power because this can't be "dumb luck." Now what religion do I choose? The odds of picking one that is not the "right" one are just too high. Refer back to the lottery question on this.
Q: The OPs question do you wish you could believe?
A: No. I do not wish I could believe in something. That would be a false belief (which IMO is worse then having true belief), because I would have to accept that. I cannot. I cannot wish for belief in something I cannot accept. If I am ever given proof in my life of a God/higher power, then I have no issues believing that because I would be able to accept it as true. I do not plan on this happening, and until it does I am going to live my life without devoting it to a God/higher power.
BurnItDwn
Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 26,353
- 1,861
- 126
I am a strict Atheist. I don't believe because it seems too impossible/implausible. Sometimes, it would be nice to somehow able to apply a magic "suspension of disbelief" so potent that I would somehow actually believe in a major religion. It would be 1 less thing to argue with the GF about. It would probably make me "fit in" with most of society a lot better too. But, I don't see it ever happening.
Jeff7
Lifer
- Jan 4, 2001
- 41,596
- 20
- 81
Fresh out of the back, and then oven-baked in the front.
I would like admittance to this religion, please. It sounds like the one true religion. All hail the Pizza-Defecator Dragon-God! Mmmm, delicious steaming pies.
Dammit, now I really want a pizza, and that dragon is nowhere to be seen.
Screw it, I don't believe in this deity, either.
Why would you want to be normal in this regard? There are sometimes when being different is a good thing. Why conform?
videogames101
Diamond Member
- Aug 24, 2005
- 6,783
- 27
- 91
Just because they think it's unknowable doesn't mean they can't believe in it.
(just pointing out the technicality)
Anyways, no one can prove god exists, it's a negative, by definition you make god unprovable, so, gtfo, the burden of proof is on YOU. (religious nuts, that is)
While something being unknown or unknowable doesn't exclude it, believe in God kind of requires you to believe that it exists. That does not mean that you can't be an agnostic and believe in God, but being agnostic is more like "being on the fence" then saying it does/does not exist.
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