Hey look, Europe still hates the Jews.

[William Gaatjes]

I was referring to your belief that American and European anti-semitic sentiment is somehow same considering USA is a European export.

The reality is America doesn't have an historical bias against Jews. America has never expelled its Jewish population, and Americans in general have never seen the Jewish population as a threat to their existence.

Many Zionists were in fact inspired by the institutionalized antisemitism in Europe, and if I recall the Dreyfuss Affair was used as lightening rod to gather support for the Jewish state. Herzle founded the WZO in reaction to the affair, in addition to long history of injustices and discrimination the Jews experienced in Europe.

Remember, Britain, Spain, and France all expelled their Jewish population at one point or another, some countries did it on numerous occasions.

Synagogues aren't burned to the ground in the USA when Israel goes to war with its enemies. Jews can wear the kippahs freely in any american city, while Jews in Paris are advised not to show any Jewish-related clothing, including Israel flags, because it promotes incitement.

I think America's would not be so passive if Muslim immigrants were importing their rabid hatred of Jewish rights into this country.

Would you be so honest to mention that this is not the way of behaviour of all French. This is a group of unemployed low educated young people. And most of them are brainwashed fake muslims. You might want to look up what nationality they have. North African for example ? How about Algeria ?
These are problem children that exist all over europe. In the Netherlands the same thing happened : Jewish people where attacked by a small criminal group of youth originally from Morocco. There is in every EU country a group of these people to be found. Low educated, no job, torn between useless family traditions and the modern way of thinking in the western world. And possibly a little mentally unstable. These groups cause serious problems for the Moroccan youth that has never done anything wrong, studies and try to become a well educated and modern moderate muslim with a job. Prejudice is something that easily created when one group of people cause harm for others. You should be able to see that.

If there is something wrong that has been done in the EU, is that many European countries political establishment thought that all the immigrants would return to there home country in the pretty recent past. I will explain how that has been the most arrogant and idiotic idea i have ever heard :

Someone comes to your country to seek work. In his own country he has and is nothing. In your country he has a social security, a job, a decent house, food, a car and money. Afcourse he misses his family and has seen that his children can go to school here, getting an education. He brings over his family. The kids become more western. This to disliking of the parents who feel they have no longer any control over their children. They turn to traditional values causing friction in the family. As everywhere can be found small example of prejudice will always exist. Feeding the frustration. Since the political establishment does not want to burn their fingers by enforcing immigrant people a more western way of thinking, this barrier gets bigger and bigger. The political establishment did not want to do this because WW2 is so fresh in memory and how awful the Jews where treated. "No fascists in our country !" Was the motto of various countries in the EU.

Language barriers arise, misunderstandings and frustrations. This all feeds the anger of the people, both natives for multiple generations and "fresh" immigrants. And on top of that some nutcase arises coming up with his distorted but fundamental islamic view of the world. And starts using the religious trust these people have. These nutcases present them selves as islamic martyrs. Why would they do that ? because when the western society acts upon these nutcases, another nutcase calles for a religious war or intifada. Since there is much unemployment, the frustrations keep growing in non islamic people as well. Blaming it on arab people and Jews. Short sightedness yes. But not every person in the EU has a high education or is able to deduct what is really going on. They are people with there own worries and issues too.

And the rest is history. This is not a hypothetical situation, this is what is happening. The lack of understanding the culture of immigrants and acting and being tough when it has to be done by the political establishment is the cause . Keep it brewing for a few decades and serious issues arise.


A good example :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France

 

[Noobtastic]

I don't know what to tell you here. The nationalist fringe right is quite a bit larger in Europe than it is here. They aren't allowed to publically deny the Holocaust and can't display Nazi symbols so they can sometimes seem less visible. Ever heard of the British National Party, for example? A far larger organization than any neo-Nazi groups we have here.

The BNP is far weaker than the far-leftist marxists. Plus, the BNP has cut down on its antisemitism because it "supports Israel."

I remember the BNP was famous in Britain for "being the only party that supported Israel's war in Gaza."

HAHAH! The Leftists had a free pass to attack Jewish liberals and conservatives as being "fascist."

It is the Leftists that accuse Israelis of being fascists.

The Arab Islamists are marching lock-step with the European leftists.

Remember, the Communists hated the Jews just as much as the Nazis.

I suggest you move about the web and see what I'm talking about. There are literally 10's of thousands of websites. And the Holocaust deniers are still extremely vocal. THey're all over Europe, and are particularly prominent in certain countries like Sweden. And we're not talking about Muslim deniers here. These are white Europeans, and they're basically all fascists.

Holocaust deniers are vocal, but not nearly as vocal as those who trivialize the holocaust by comparing Israel to Nazi Germany - which is core feature of the modern European left.

In European, Jews aren't emigrating because of the right (the right supports the Jews), but Leftists psychos such as Hermann Dierkes and George Galloway. I don't know any modern "right" politician that is as antisemitic as the Leftists. Nick Griffin is the extremist person I know, and he has stopped the holocaust denial for now.

This same fringe is growing in Russia as well, by the way. A large skinhead underground.

- wolf

White Russian-copy cats are springing up in Russia, but for the most part its the Leftist/socialist Russians and their Muslim immigrant allies that have targeted the Jews.

Realize that most antisemitism these days is in the form of demonization of Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

Many European politicians on the left tend to say antisemitism is exclusive to the right-wingers, but statistics overwhelmingly disagree.

The radical-anti Zionists (all Left), and anti-globalization movements use criticism of Israel and Jews as a pretext to support Palestinian/Arab terrorism.

What is going on in Europe and is very much like what happened in the Soviet Union when they invented the Anti-Zionist industry in the 70s and 80s.

After all, they're the ones who came up with the "Zionism is racism."

Ask any Jew in Europe and they'll tell you it is the left, not the right that is promoting incitement.

 

[Lemon law]

The new antisemitism sounds about as credible as the new Nixon.

But still, there is absolutely no denying that antisemitism has been a historical force with a long and ignoble history, certainly dating back to the second diaspora and even before. And IMHO, as we examine world history over a longer term, those nations that expelled its Jews in the new waves of antisemitism tended thereafter to go into decline, and those nations that took in the expelled Jews went into periods of increasing prosperity. And we can certainly argue that Hitler was antisemitism fool #1, had he retained the great Jewish physicists like Einstein, Fermi, and the rest, Germany might have developed nukes first. And that the USA would not have developed Nukes.

But IMHO, there has been a post Christianity historical force profit motive for "Western" world antisemitism, because, until the times of Martin Luther, both the catholic church and the Islamic faiths prohibited the loaning of money for interest, also known as usury.
But any time the reigning king or Calif needed to raise money to finance a war, the local Jewish community were the go to guys, because Judaism had no such prohibition on usury. And to paraphrase Palin, borrowed money is fun, paying it back is hard. So many found it convent to stir up antisemitism, and soon the nation threw them out, and the need to pay back went away. And in some ways this method may be the origin of much of antisemitism as an institution and a time honored custom.

And we must also remember that much of the "Western" world and large parts of Islam, have had one and only one State sponsored religion. For sheer ugly, no one can hold up Catholicism as a tolerant religion and its protestant offshoots as basic believers in the divinity of Jesus Christ have been cheerfully slaughtering each other in the name of religious purity, ever since Catholicism became the State religion of the Roman empire. Nor has Islam been a poster child, ever since the great Sunni Shia split, as they ethnically cleanse each other in Iraq to this day.

Bah, Religion in general has been a divisive force, that tends to divide blocks of people into us and them.

 

[William Gaatjes]

The new antisemitism sounds about as credible as the new Nixon.

But still, there is absolutely no denying that antisemitism has been a historical force with a long and ignoble history, certainly dating back to the second diaspora and even before. And IMHO, as we examine world history over a longer term, those nations that expelled its Jews in the new waves of antisemitism tended thereafter to go into decline, and those nations that took in the expelled Jews went into periods of increasing prosperity. And we can certainly argue that Hitler was antisemitism fool #1, had he retained the great Jewish physicists like Einstein, Fermi, and the rest, Germany might have developed nukes first. And that the USA would not have developed Nukes.

Well, do not forget the German non Jewish scientists who sayed in Germany. A lot of them like Werner Heisenberg who was close friends with Niels Bohr delayed the German nuke program. From what i have read, Werner eisenberg was on more then one occasion making sure the German nukes did not get developed by presenting false data and creating setbacks.
There where multiple attempts by the established rich Germans to assassinate Hitler. Which is not strange because most of the nazi party people where high all the time on drugs like methamphetamine, better known as crystal meth during the world war 2.

But IMHO, there has been a post Christianity historical force profit motive for "Western" world antisemitism, because, until the times of Martin Luther, both the catholic church and the Islamic faiths prohibited the loaning of money for interest, also known as usury.
But any time the reigning king or Calif needed to raise money to finance a war, the local Jewish community were the go to guys, because Judaism had no such prohibition on usury. And to paraphrase Palin, borrowed money is fun, paying it back is hard. So many found it convent to stir up antisemitism, and soon the nation threw them out, and the need to pay back went away. And in some ways this method may be the origin of much of antisemitism as an institution and a time honored custom.

Just a question, where did the Jews get their money from in those times ? Why where they always so rich in the first place and the people to go to when money or gold or jewelry was needed ?

And we must also remember that much of the "Western" world and large parts of Islam, have had one and only one State sponsored religion. For sheer ugly, no one can hold up Catholicism as a tolerant religion and its protestant offshoots as basic believers in the divinity of Jesus Christ have been cheerfully slaughtering each other in the name of religious purity, ever since Catholicism became the State religion of the Roman empire. Nor has Islam been a poster child, ever since the great Sunni Shia split, as they ethnically cleanse each other in Iraq to this day.

Bah, Religion in general has been a divisive force, that tends to divide blocks of people into us and them.

And all because of some people who did not pay attention in the time of Sumer...

 

[Lemon law]

Gaatjes does ask a good question in, "Just a question, where did the Jews get their money from in those times ? Why where they always so rich in the first place and the people to go to when money or gold or jewelry was needed ?"

And the answer is fairly simple, even though the Jews were more impoverished than the average, they still had a large and organized community to tap, especially since some members were in the skilled trades. We see it everywhere in slums all over the world, even in a shit hole, the people at the top make a bunch of money. And with Jewish community being well organized at the rabbinical level, the word goes out that by pooling their money, there is more money to be made.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Gaatjes does ask a good question in, "Just a question, where did the Jews get their money from in those times ? Why where they always so rich in the first place and the people to go to when money or gold or jewelry was needed ?"

And the answer is fairly simple, even though the Jews were more impoverished than the average, they still had a large and organized community to tap, especially since some members were in the skilled trades. We see it everywhere in slums all over the world, even in a shit hole, the people at the top make a bunch of money. And with Jewish community being well organized at the rabbinical level, the word goes out that by pooling their money, there is more money to be made.

Well, i kind of expected that answer. In past times the Jewish community always treasured education and learned skills. Another reason why money did not just disappear, was because they kept the business in the family. Thereby keeping control over the business. A good example is getting some outside manager with no feeling in the family business to see it all go down the drain. A thing happening at many companies, family business or not. There is no personal connection but money. If there is one thing the difficult part of the human world that is anti semitic can learn, then is it that an education actually gets people somewhere.

 

[CanOWorms]

European liberals have an intense racism/bigotry ideology. They've always hated Jews and other minority groups. They've been exporting and spreading their ideology, similar to the Saudi Arabians spreading Wahhabism.

The Europeanization of American liberals scares me.

 

[llee]

Europe still hates the Jews. So be it, it's not like we can transform policy over there. Telling them what to do over a matter is instituting authority over another sovereign power. While it may be disheartening to those who stand up for equality and the Zionist faith, it is not in the best interest of America to pursue these problems in the light of our own country's problems.

 

[SandEagle]

Europe still hates the Jews. So be it, it's not like we can transform policy over there. Telling them what to do over a matter is instituting authority over another sovereign power. While it may be disheartening to those who stand up for equality and the Zionist faith, it is not in the best interest of America to pursue these problems in the light of our own country's problems.

Europe still hates Muslims. And they can transform policies, so don't try that bullshit. look at the burqa bans and the minaret bans to see what kind of policy changes they can bring about. you don't like the law of the land, then go back to your own damn country. that's is the typical P&N response n00b.

 

[llee]

Europe still hates Muslims. And they can transform policies, so don't try that bullshit. look at the burqa bans and the minaret bans to see what kind of policy changes they can bring about. you don't like the law of the land, then go back to your own damn country. that's is the typical P&N response n00b.

You just missed the whole point of my post, kid.

I said:
1. The USFG can't influence European laws over racism because it's a domestic matter.
2. Instituting our authority over Europe in the name of equality is trivial.
3. We have more important things to spend our resources on.

You said:
"Muslims can influence policy"- OF COURSE DIPSHIT; any idiot would realize that they could have an influence if they made up part of the population.
"If I don't like the law"- NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT LIKING IT, learn how to read an
"Go back to your damn country"- See statement 3, THAT'S WHAT I ALREADY SAID.

So before you spew out your PN response, actually learn how to read so you don't embarrass yourself next time.

 

[CanOWorms]

You just missed the whole point of my post, kid.

I said:
1. The USFG can't influence European laws over racism because it's a domestic matter.
2. Instituting our authority over Europe in the name of equality is trivial.
3. We have more important things to spend our resources on.

1. Yes, the United States can influence European laws. We should decide not to recognize their sovereignty over such matters.
2. It's not trivial - millions of lives are at stake. It isn't about equality, but also our own national security.
3. This is a huge national security interest, something resources should be spent on. Don't forget where many of the 9/11 hijackers were radicalized - Europe. The swirling of racism against minority groups + rampant anti-Americanism among the majority = American lives in jeopardy.

 

[llee]

1. Yes, the United States can influence European laws. We should decide not to recognize their sovereignty over such matters.
2. It's not trivial - millions of lives are at stake. It isn't about equality, but also our own national security.
3. This is a huge national security interest, something resources should be spent on. Don't forget where many of the 9/11 hijackers were radicalized - Europe. The swirling of racism against minority groups + rampant anti-Americanism among the majority = American lives in jeopardy.

1. I think it's highly unlikely for them to change their laws just because we say so. Contrary to belief, we don't have an all imposing hegemony on this matter. Their laws reflect their cultural and national values. We are their ally, not their ruler.
2. So we throw away freedom and equality in the name of hunting after these terrorists who hate Jews. How did the American public react to the Patriot Act? Nobody likes losing their free will and in this fight to balance freedom and authority you're asking for Europe to capitulate to our authority. Sorry, but there's no way that they're going to throw away their sovereignty over this.
3. Stretching our influence to cover their sovereignty is only going to piss off the populace more. The whole idea of America as the world's policeman was throw out by Obama anyway through his foreign policy in contrast to Bush. Not only could this backfire, it's completely infeasible to begin with. We need to let THEM see a changed America rather than stuffing it down their throats.

 

[Noobtastic]

1. I think it's highly unlikely for them to change their laws just because we say so. Contrary to belief, we don't have an all imposing hegemony on this matter. Their laws reflect their cultural and national values. We are their ally, not their ruler.
2. So we throw away freedom and equality in the name of hunting after these terrorists who hate Jews. How did the American public react to the Patriot Act? Nobody likes losing their free will and in this fight to balance freedom and authority you're asking for Europe to capitulate to our authority. Sorry, but there's no way that they're going to throw away their sovereignty over this.
3. Stretching our influence to cover their sovereignty is only going to piss off the populace more. The whole idea of America as the world's policeman was throw out by Obama anyway through his foreign policy in contrast to Bush. Not only could this backfire, it's completely infeasible to begin with. We need to let THEM see a changed America rather than stuffing it down their throats.

1. Europe and America are still linked in many ways. American policy has a great ripple effect in Europe. Don't estimate the influence of the most powerful nation on Earth. Remember, who rebuilt Europe? Ah yes, we did.

2. The Patriot Act is still alive and kicking. Obama made no promises to change that. But the Patriot Act is nothing compared to the fascist European governments who spy on their citizens 24/7. Personal freedom is outlawed in the EU constitution.

3. Ideas and images don't matter. The illusion that America is "world's policeman" was prompted up by the Left to demonize the right. Nothing has changed and America is still the policeman, if not a more powerful one in 2010, but the rhetoric has stopped because Bush is gone. But we're still in Afghanistan and Iraq, and we're still occupying half a dozen Muslim nations and bankrolling their militaries.

Obama broke most his promises when he became President, but the promise to disarm our nation and give more rights to rogue nations like Iran and Venezuela because we wronged them in our imperialist era is being honored as we speak. Obama is the President of change, but we're only going back in time.

 

[Red Dawn]

the promise to disarm our nation and give more rights to rogue nations like Iran and Venezuela because we wronged them in our imperialist era is being honored as we speak. Obama is the President of change, but we're only going back in time.

You are so full of shit. We aren't giving these countries any rights, as if it was up to us to give them Rights in the first place.

 

[Noobtastic]

You are so full of shit. We aren't giving these countries any rights, as if it was up to us to give them Rights in the first place.

 

[Red Dawn]

And you continue your hysterical bullshit.

 

[ebaycj]

Jew this, jew that, I don't care about the fucking jews. WW2 was 70 years ago. Get over it jews!

Oh. My. God.


I actually agree 100% with Hacp about something !!!

 

[Noobtastic]

And you continue your hysterical bullshit.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

 

[CanOWorms]

1. I think it's highly unlikely for them to change their laws just because we say so. Contrary to belief, we don't have an all imposing hegemony on this matter. Their laws reflect their cultural and national values. We are their ally, not their ruler.

I'm advocating neither ally or ruler relationship. There are other options. Enemy, for example. Their acts already put us on this course. We can take over on certain issues, but not occupy the country as a ruler.

2. So we throw away freedom and equality in the name of hunting after these terrorists who hate Jews. How did the American public react to the Patriot Act? Nobody likes losing their free will and in this fight to balance freedom and authority you're asking for Europe to capitulate to our authority. Sorry, but there's no way that they're going to throw away their sovereignty over this.

They don't have to be willing to give up their sovereignty. They can be forced to. There is already precedent for the world to take over sovereignty over European affairs.

3. Stretching our influence to cover their sovereignty is only going to piss off the populace more. The whole idea of America as the world's policeman was throw out by Obama anyway through his foreign policy in contrast to Bush. Not only could this backfire, it's completely infeasible to begin with. We need to let THEM see a changed America rather than stuffing it down their throats.

Being the world's policeman has a reputation, but that power has rarely been used against European interests. The reputation of being the world's policeman was widely cultivated during the Cold War involving developing nations.

I suggest that the world would be most pleased to see the United States exercise power against Europe. That would be a changed America.

 

[fallout man]

Sweet CHOP, douche-nozzle.

What Iran’s Jews Say
By ROGER COHEN

Esfahan, Iran

At Palestine Square, opposite a mosque called Al-Aqsa, is a synagogue where Jews of this ancient city gather at dawn. Over the entrance is a banner saying: “Congratulations on the 30th anniversary of the Islamic Revolution from the Jewish community of Esfahan.”

The Jews of Iran remove their shoes, wind leather straps around their arms to attach phylacteries and take their places. Soon the sinuous murmur of Hebrew prayer courses through the cluttered synagogue with its lovely rugs and unhappy plants. Soleiman Sedighpoor, an antiques dealer with a store full of treasures, leads the service from a podium under a chandelier.

I’d visited the bright-eyed Sedighpoor, 61, the previous day at his dusty little shop. He’d sold me, with some reluctance, a bracelet of mother-of-pearl adorned with Persian miniatures. “The father buys, the son sells,” he muttered, before inviting me to the service.

Accepting, I inquired how he felt about the chants of “Death to Israel” — “Marg bar Esraeel” — that punctuate life in Iran.

“Let them say ‘Death to Israel,’ ” he said. “I’ve been in this store 43 years and never had a problem. I’ve visited my relatives in Israel, but when I see something like the attack on Gaza, I demonstrate, too, as an Iranian.”

The Middle East is an uncomfortable neighborhood for minorities, people whose very existence rebukes warring labels of religious and national identity. Yet perhaps 25,000 Jews live on in Iran, the largest such community, along with Turkey’s, in the Muslim Middle East. There are more than a dozen synagogues in Tehran; here in Esfahan a handful caters to about 1,200 Jews, descendants of an almost 3,000-year-old community.

Over the decades since Israel’s creation in 1948, and the Islamic Revolution of 1979, the number of Iranian Jews has dwindled from about 100,000. But the exodus has been far less complete than from Arab countries, where some 800,000 Jews resided when modern Israel came into being.

In Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Iraq — countries where more than 485,000 Jews lived before 1948 — fewer than 2,000 remain. The Arab Jew has perished. The Persian Jew has fared better.

Of course, Israel’s unfinished cycle of wars has been with Arabs, not Persians, a fact that explains some of the discrepancy.

Still a mystery hovers over Iran’s Jews. It’s important to decide what’s more significant: the annihilationist anti-Israel ranting, the Holocaust denial and other Iranian provocations — or the fact of a Jewish community living, working and worshipping in relative tranquillity.

Perhaps I have a bias toward facts over words, but I say the reality of Iranian civility toward Jews tells us more about Iran — its sophistication and culture — than all the inflammatory rhetoric.

That may be because I’m a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran. Or perhaps I was impressed that the fury over Gaza, trumpeted on posters and Iranian TV, never spilled over into insults or violence toward Jews. Or perhaps it’s because I’m convinced the “Mad Mullah” caricature of Iran and likening of any compromise with it to Munich 1938 — a position popular in some American Jewish circles — is misleading and dangerous.

I know, if many Jews left Iran, it was for a reason. Hostility exists. The trumped-up charges of spying for Israel against a group of Shiraz Jews in 1999 showed the regime at its worst. Jews elect one representative to Parliament, but can vote for a Muslim if they prefer. A Muslim, however, cannot vote for a Jew.

Among minorities, the Bahai — seven of whom were arrested recently on charges of spying for Israel — have suffered brutally harsh treatment.

I asked Morris Motamed, once the Jewish member of the Majlis, if he felt he was used, an Iranian quisling. “I don’t,” he replied. “In fact I feel deep tolerance here toward Jews.” He said “Death to Israel” chants bother him, but went on to criticize the “double standards” that allow Israel, Pakistan and India to have a nuclear bomb, but not Iran.

Double standards don’t work anymore; the Middle East has become too sophisticated. One way to look at Iran’s scurrilous anti-Israel tirades is as a provocation to focus people on Israel’s bomb, its 41-year occupation of the West Bank, its Hamas denial, its repetitive use of overwhelming force. Iranian language can be vile, but any Middle East peace — and engagement with Tehran — will have to take account of these points.

Green Zoneism — the basing of Middle Eastern policy on the construction of imaginary worlds — has led nowhere.

Realism about Iran should take account of Esfehan’s ecumenical Palestine Square. At the synagogue, Benhur Shemian, 22, told me Gaza showed Israel’s government was “criminal,” but still he hoped for peace. At the Al-Aqsa mosque, Monteza Foroughi, 72, pointed to the synagogue and said: “They have their prophet; we have ours. And that’s fine.”

 

[Noobtastic]

Sweet CHOP, douche-nozzle.

Iranian propaganda.

85% of Iran's Jewish population has emigrated, which includes virtually all of my family.

They can only work in certain sectors of the economy, routinely harassed by the islamic police, can only live in specific areas, etc..

You're a fuckin Iranian apologist fallout, just admit the truth.

This is what you support:

ohhh SNAP! What did she do? Dare to masturbate? *GASP!!*

ZIONIST PROPAGANDA11211!!!

 

[fallout man]

iranian propaganda.

85% of iran's jewish population has emigrated, which includes virtually all of my family.

They can only work in certain sectors of the economy, routinely harassed by the islamic police, can only live in specific areas, etc..

You're a fuckin iranian apologist fallout, just admit the truth.

This is what you support:

ohhh snap! What did she do? Dare to masturbate? *gasp!!*

zionist propaganda11211!!!

loltroll!

 

[Noobtastic]

loltroll!

 

[fallout man]

Does the remaining part of your Iranian-Jewish family find it difficult to get past all of those Persian-Only highways when they get about?