[Hexus]Nvidia pulls away from AMD in graphics card market share

[AnandThenMan]

PR dpt is not that bad.

It is. AMD release reference cards that run relatively hot and loud and were clocked lower. These cards were used over and over again in reviews and did not reflect the cards that people actually buy. This is terrible PR, beyond terrible it's shooting themselves in the foot.

It does make a person wonder WHY review sites kept using the reference cards in reviews, but AMD set themselves up to be exploited and it happened.

 

[cbrunny]

And when AMD launch Fiji in the new year, they'll claw it back again. The graph says it all, we've been through this back-and-forth for years.

Who made this graph? Yes, I see it is from the linked page but is it sourced anywhere? Whoever made it doesn't know anything about making graphs.

If you follow the links to here: http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/12/09/nvidia-is-pulling-away-from-amd.aspx

it is sourced by John Peddie Research. I'm guessing the data comes from this chart: http://jonpeddie.com/publications/add-in-board-report/

which holds up. Hmm. Interesting.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Just because a person buys Nvidia, it doesnt make them dumb. What a shortsighted and ill conceived notion. A totally unacceptable conclusion.

There is no such conclusion, it's not all black and white. I've bought many Nvidia products, I have not bought their products when they were 2nd best. Why would I? Many people only buy Nvidia, doesn't matter if at any given time their stuff is not the best, or it may even be really terrible. They stay loyal anyway. See where this is going? AMD doesn't have this kind of loyal fanbase. If they did, they would be in a much, much better position because no company can always be the best, ever. So when AMD is lagging on product, having a loyal fanbase would support them, keep the cash flowing so they can invest in future products. Make sense?

Are you serious?

I mean, what logic?
"Everyone who buys Doritos chips instead of Toms potato chips is just dumb"
That is a very childish mentality.

I mean seriously, even if Toms gave away all their chips for free to whoever wanted them, people would still buy Doritos. Take a minute and think on it. Try to explain why, in your own words. Hopefully (i mean, i really really hope), you can come up with a different explanation than.....
"everyone who buys Doritos must be dumb"

If you cannot see the epic fail here than it is all on you. But i really expect more out of a discussion on a tech forum and i dont have a problem addressing undeveloped ideas.

No one is saying buying Nvidia makes a person stupid, buying only Nvidia is unwise because like any company, they have their share of duds.

 

[96Firebird]

AMD doesn't have this kind of loyal fanbase.

Ever heard of Team Red? They definitely have a loyal fanbase, who are unfortunately very vocal...

 

[Enigmoid]

It does make a person wonder WHY review sites kept using the reference cards in reviews, but AMD set themselves up to be exploited and it happened.

Reviewers rarely buy hardware themselves. They only review what they are sent.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Reviewers rarely buy hardware themselves. They only review what they are sent.

I don't think the reference cards are the only ones AMD sent out to reviewers. Doesn't matter though, AMD shot themselves in the foot, what were they thinking? It's amateurish to the extreme.

 

[NIGELG]

It is expected that Nvidia has pulled away.Nvidia must be good,right?

AMD killed the ATi brand,Time to bring it back and not do an FX like in the CPU division.

Amd NEEDS to be competitive or else sink further into Oblivion.I like my 7970 and it's good for me for now.I am waiting to see what their next generation cards can do.

I am still smarting from my Nvidia burns....

 

[Magic Carpet]

AMD is still somewhat competitive, they just don't know how to sell / market. That is sad.

And now the whole AMD brand is being associated with value and "second-hand", which is bad.

Wish, ATI had stayed independent.

 

[thilanliyan]

Ever heard of Team Red? They definitely have a loyal fanbase, who are unfortunately very vocal...

I'd argue it's nowhere near as large as nV's is. Like Intel is well-known to the non-techie, IMO nVidia is better known than AMD for graphics. The conversations I've had with non-techies when they want to buy a graphics card usually starts with them mentioning nVidia. I've tried to explain that ATI/AMD also makes good cards, but they'd rather stick to something they know.

nVidia have done well to get that fanbase...it wasn't blind luck. Whether it was good marketing or engineering prowess (or maybe both) is up for debate I'd say. I don't blame nVidia one bit. AMD has to do better with hardware and software, and I think they're trying so that's good. I wish the fanbase was more like 50/50 but it is what it is.

 

[f1sherman]

It is. AMD release reference cards that run relatively hot and loud and were clocked lower. These cards were used over and over again in reviews and did not reflect the cards that people actually buy. This is terrible PR, beyond terrible it's shooting themselves in the foot.

It does make a person wonder WHY review sites kept using the reference cards in reviews, but AMD set themselves up to be exploited and it happened.

You are asking from this "PR" that they ban/control appearance of ref. cards in benchmarks?
Communism much?!

PR did not engineer 250-300W Hawaii, nor did they slap that ref. cooler on top of it.
NVIDIA's PR did not engineer 170W GM104 with that Titan-like cooler,
And it's no fault of AMD PR that 970/980 are selling the way they are selling.

Instead of this "PR", I would prefer a company that is funneling all and every PR moneys to Omega, Mantle, FreeSync and GCN 2.0 and is letting their products speak for themselves.
Yes, I'd love such AMD.

Nvidia's PR is not more likeable either. But at least they know when to open their mouth.
All they have is JHH, and yes I simply love listening to this guy.
AMD PR take notes:

• Being passionate is OK
• Being competitive is also OK
• Being abrasive is not OK, because it's prolly not going to win you any new friends.

Regardless of that, suggesting that the current situation is due to "PR" is a nonsense.
According to that, all AMD needs to do is hire a top-notch PR firm.
WTH how hard is that? Does AMD have an obligatory 50 year monopoly on un-competent PR?

And RE:loyal fanbase.
Does Nvidia have a monopoly on loyal fanbase? How did they become so loyal?
Is everyone born as Nvidian, and then AMD need to convert them. WTH...

Maybe something to do with the reality on the ground, with actual products, ppls experiences and such?

 

[AnandThenMan]

You are asking from this "PR" that they ban/control appearance of ref. cards in benchmarks?
Communism much?!

You can't be serious.

 

[f1sherman]

OK now I understand what you meant.
You are talking about PR via product (290X) itself. I thought you meant institutionalized, official PR team, with people

 

[Silverforce11]

@AnandThenMan
The reference 7900 series (especially 7970ghz) and R290/X series was a disaster for the brand. It ran hot and very loud and would have put off many users from upgrading for 3 solid months before AIB models were widely available. Not only that, but they also throttle so performance was not optimal, making the 780ti have a solid lead on the R290X. NV kept the halo all the way. It would have been very different had the cooler kept the clock speed at 1ghz instead of down to 850, that's a lot of performance lost. Suddenly there's no clear halo for the 780ti, to be matched against a much cheaper card.

As I said during the launch, it's as if AMD doesn't want to succeed. They had a great GPU but decide to cripple it intentionally. I still think whoever was in charge of putting that crap cooler on such high TDP cards deserve to be fired.

 

[f1sherman]

As I said during the launch, it's as if AMD doesn't want to succeed. They had a great GPU but decide to cripple it intentionally. I still think whoever was in charge of putting that crap cooler on such high TDP cards deserve to be fired.

Cooler is not bad, its same 5870/6970 vapor chamber, prolly beefed up a bit.

Problem is... cooler remained the same, and TDP went through the roof.
How did this happen? Timing issue... maybe?
They rushed launch with new cooler still sitting behind in manufacturing/design pipeline?

And lets not forget that tiny little engineering detail:

• - they over shooted comfortable 200-225W TDP target!

Something they have never done, and which also Nvidia avoided to do with 680/Titan/780.

Remember everyone lambasting AMD for 7970 low clocks?
Well here you are dear fans, decent clocks with matching TDP.

 

[96Firebird]

I'd argue it's nowhere near as large as nV's is. Like Intel is well-known to the non-techie, IMO nVidia is better known than AMD for graphics. The conversations I've had with non-techies when they want to buy a graphics card usually starts with them mentioning nVidia. I've tried to explain that ATI/AMD also makes good cards, but they'd rather stick to something they know.

Non-techies don't make up the "loyal fanbase" AnandThenMan mentions. Nvidia's brand presence is what sells cards to those people.

 

[Silverforce11]

Cooler is not bad, its same 5870/6970 vapor chamber, prolly beefed up a bit.

Problem is... cooler remained the same, and TDP went through the roof.
How did this happen? Timing issue... maybe?
They rushed launch with new cooler still sitting behind in manufacturing/design pipeline?

And lets not forget that tiny little engineering detail:

• - they over shooted comfortable 200-225W TDP target!

Something they have never done, and which also Nvidia avoided to do with 680/Titan/780.

Remember everyone lambasting AMD for 7970 low clocks?
Well here you are dear fans, decent clocks with matching TDP.

Ofcourse its bad, because its the same as from the 5800 series. It was fine for a low TDP card like Evergreen, but then they reused it for the 6970 series which increase power a bit, we can see it starting to be non sufficient. Then they had the stupid idea to reuse it for the 7900 series and thats when it was pure fail.

Not sure why they were so stupid to reuse it for R290/X. In public interviews, AMD explained they wanted to maintain OEM compatibility so the reference blower was preferred. That's a lame excuse since so few OEMs will consider putting R290/X into their builds. Big gaming builds certainly can handle open air designs just fine. It points to poor management who were out of touch with reality.

 

[AnandThenMan]

@AnandThenMan
The reference 7900 series (especially 7970ghz) and R290/X series was a disaster for the brand.

Complete disaster. The crappy reference model should have never existed, but AMD probably had millions of the fansinks so they decided to use them up. Of course that kind of penny pinching cost them far more in the long run.

If AMD had any sense from a PR perspective that would have never happened, this naturally starts at the top. BTW I was in no way suggesting AMD attempt to ban or control what reviewers do. But they gave reviewers something to beat them over the head with, this is incomprehensible to me. Especially for a company with a delicate image as it is.

Remember everyone lambasting AMD for 7970 low clocks?
Well here you are dear fans, decent clocks with matching TDP.

AMD could have mitigated this with a better cooling solution. Temps go up power draw goes up. Heat and noise goes up, performance goes down. This is design 101 but AMD somehow botched it!

 

[thilanliyan]

Non-techies don't make up the "loyal fanbase" AnandThenMan mentions. Nvidia's brand presence is what sells cards to those people.

I disagree. In these forums for example, representing the techies, I think it's closer to 50/50. Imo it's the non techies that push nvidia to the 65-70%. Brand presence has more sway with non techies than techies I would imagine because we are more likely to be better informed, and make a purchasing decision based on price/performance/etc, rather than brand name. Heck back when amd made good cpus, wouldn't you have bought one, assuming you are a techie? However, ask a non-techie what amd is and you'll probably get a blank look, but I bet they know what Intel is.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I disagree. In these forums for example, representing the techies, I think it's closer to 50/50. Imo it's the non techies that push nvidia to the 65-70%. Brand presence has more sway with non techies than techies I would imagine because we are more likely to be better informed, and make a purchasing decision based on price/performance/etc, rather than brand name. Heck back when amd made good cpus, wouldn't you have bought one, assuming you are a techie? However, ask a non-techie what amd is and you'll probably get a blank look, but I bet they know what Intel is.

Sad, I remember back in 01 when AMD Athlon XP's just destroyed Intel Pentium 4's not just on price for performance, but on straight up performance. And yet they still only got 20% of the market with far superior processors.

 

[SimianR]

I disagree. In these forums for example, representing the techies, I think it's closer to 50/50. Imo it's the non techies that push nvidia to the 65-70%. Brand presence has more sway with non techies than techies I would imagine because we are more likely to be better informed, and make a purchasing decision based on price/performance/etc, rather than brand name. Heck back when amd made good cpus, wouldn't you have bought one, assuming you are a techie? However, ask a non-techie what amd is and you'll probably get a blank look, but I bet they know what Intel is.

This right here. The average joe going to buy a video card to play the CS: Source or whatever new PC game with his buddies ends up buying a middle of the road NVIDIA card because he's heard from someone who heard from someone else that AMD DRIVERS STINK! and that "NVIDIA IS THE WAY TO GO!" so they go and grab a Geforce 760. AMD really needs more brand recognition for sure amongst the non-techies.

 

[RussianSensation]

This right here. The average joe going to buy a video card to play the CS: Source or whatever new PC game with his buddies ends up buying a middle of the road NVIDIA card because he's heard from someone who heard from someone else that AMD DRIVERS STINK! and that "NVIDIA IS THE WAY TO GO!" so they go and grab a Geforce 760. AMD really needs more brand recognition for sure amongst the non-techies.

Exactly. It's so bad here in Central Asia, when I wanted to get 290 series for mining a year ago, I was told sorry AMD doesn't sell well here. We have HD7770 for you if you want. A local Central Asian colleague of mine bought a "top-of-the-line" desktop 2.5 years ago -- Q9400 + GTX470.

This is how the average DIY PC gamer shops:

1. I have a budget of X, and I want to spend Y on the CPU and Z on the GPU based on my task demands.

2. What's the best Intel CPU and NV GPU can I get at Y and Z? I hear they are the best.

In the summer of 2011 I put together a dual monitor 2500k PC for a friend of mine. I also advised him to upgrade to 4790K and triple monitors for his work this year. He wanted to double check with NCIX on component selection. I have advised him get MSI Gaming 3 and use integrated graphics as he plays 0 games. NCIX rep tried to push him to MSI Gaming 9 and GTX780 since he said running 3 monitors in 2D would be faster on NV and the mobo would be higher quality. My friend listened to me instead and he is living his system and is happy he saved $. His is the average PC users who is clueless about tech. I bet if a 2017-2018 AMD CPU were to beat Intel, it will be very hard for my friend to believe that Intel is not the best since well he would have used Intel since 2011 by that point.

I would say a lot of new PC buyers or inexperienced ones go for high end boards and highest videocards since to them it's logical that a more expensive PC part is better. Otherwise why would it cost more? I remember my first DIY PC, I got the most expensive Asus mobo because professional reviews were giving it 9+. What a waste of $ it turned out with me never using those extra features it had. I didn't know any better since I was a noob.

Also, more inexperienced PC gamers are more likely to keep their GPUs much longer without upgrading. That's why these same users have more of a tendency to overspend on their GPU since well they expect to use it for 4-5 years.

 

[Zanovar]

You are asking from this "PR" that they ban/control appearance of ref. cards in benchmarks?
Communism much?!

PR did not engineer 250-300W Hawaii, nor did they slap that ref. cooler on top of it.
NVIDIA's PR did not engineer 170W GM104 with that Titan-like cooler,
And it's no fault of AMD PR that 970/980 are selling the way they are selling.

Instead of this "PR", I would prefer a company that is funneling all and every PR moneys to Omega, Mantle, FreeSync and GCN 2.0 and is letting their products speak for themselves.
Yes, I'd love such AMD.

Nvidia's PR is not more likeable either. But at least they know when to open their mouth.
All they have is JHH, and yes I simply love listening to this guy.
AMD PR take notes:

• Being passionate is OK
• Being competitive is also OK
• Being abrasive is not OK, because it's prolly not going to win you any new friends.

Regardless of that, suggesting that the current situation is due to "PR" is a nonsense.
According to that, all AMD needs to do is hire a top-notch PR firm.
WTH how hard is that? Does AMD have an obligatory 50 year monopoly on un-competent PR?

And RE:loyal fanbase.
Does Nvidia have a monopoly on loyal fanbase? How did they become so loyal?
Is everyone born as Nvidian, and then AMD need to convert them. WTH...

Maybe something to do with the reality on the ground, with actual products, ppls experiences and such?

nvm

 

[RussianSensation]

Seriously?
Calling everyone who doesnt follow in his footsteps dumb?

is that level headed?

You honestly think that is a mature attitude? That is acceptable to you?

This is the 2nd time you misinterpret my comments. First you implied that I said all GF8 have failed and you proceeded to link working GF8s on sale. As mentioned by other posters, no one made a claim that all GF8s have failed only that all have inherent defects and can fail at any time.

Now you implied as if I said that anyone who bought NV in the last 5 years is dumb. That's not what I said. What I said is NV users who ignored mining are dumb. Why is that? Because you could use thousands of dollars made by AMD hardware to drown yourself in NV hardware from the proceeds. Your analogy would be if you purchased competing chips and the more you ate them, the more $ you would get to buy up to a lifetime of Doritos. For example your brother could be either gaming on a free 7970 now or could have bought a free 780Ti. Most people in North America ignored mining because:

1) They didn't even know about it (until too late)
2) They thought it was a scam
3) Too risk averse to spend $ to make $
4) Didn't know how to set it up software wise
5) Were too lazy to learn about mining, how to set it up digital wallets and convert to USD/gift cards
6) Loyalty to NV made it impossible to consider buying AMD cards even knowing that AMD cards made $
7) Didn't want to deal with the extra noise and heat. Although this one mostly comes from ignorance because you could have undervolted/underclocked the ASIC and purchased cool and quiet 7900 cards. Even 1 of them could have made $2-5K.
8) Have so much $, they don't care about making $10000-30000 in mining.

However, on our technical forum, I also saw that most loyal NV users who keep buying NV only have also ignored mining. This was shocking to me because most of the points I made above don't apply to them. We had guides on what cards to buy, what settings to run, how to set it all up, how to minimize your power usage, how to maximize Mhash per watt, etc. Guess what? Those who followed our advice are sitting on 4-5 figures of earnings and if they so choose can purchase many next gen cards for "free" over and over. Many experienced NV users put down Bitcoin mining and simply refused to be open-minded. This was not about buying AMD cards for many of us but about using PC hardware to make $ that we can use to buy things in real life, such as more free future PC hardware. Amazing perk and despite that AMD's market share didn't explode since 2008. This shows just how uninformed the average PC gamer is.

If you don't want to use mining as evidence that the average PC gamer is not technically savvy, JHH quoted that 80% of NV users didn't bother adjusting PC game settings/optimizing when he announced GeForce Experience on stage. That is more evidence how little technical knowledge/desire to learn PC hardware and patience the average PC gamer has. You think the same people will spend time reading extensive PC hardware reviews, follow-up reading reviews over time, visit forums such as ours or OCN or overclockers.net? Not a chance. You know 14-17 million AIB graphics cards are sold a quarter! How many of those people know squat about graphics cards vs. brand name?

I think what you are missing from the overall theme are times when NV was clearly the inferior choice. FX5000's horrible DX9 performance and IQ, 7000GTX horrible AA and performance in shader intensive games, Fermi's 6-9 months delays and 10-15% more performance for 80-90% power usage, ignorance of Bitcoin mining. All of these situations highlight how the average PC gamer perceives the NV brand and it helps us gauge his/her general knowledge of hardware - an average level and not much more.

The core NV userbase is very similar to that of any successful brand in how they think. Best selling Beats, Bose, Hondas, Toyotas, NIKEs, Coca Cola, Levis, Taylor Swift, Apple. These are all very strong brands for the average consumer. But it doesn't mean that they don't make crappy products/release poor content/songs from time to time. However, it is NV's brand name and blind consumer following that explain the lack of disastrous market share losses during FX5000 and GF7 eras, as well as during Fermi delays; and well the success of bad but hugely popular products such as FX5200/5500, GTS450, GTX550, GT630-640, 650-650Ti, etc.

 

[Zanovar]

Christ if i hear mining mentioned one more time my head will explode boom.

 

[Abwx]

It is. AMD release reference cards that run relatively hot and loud and were clocked lower. These cards were used over and over again in reviews and did not reflect the cards that people actually buy. This is terrible PR, beyond terrible it's shooting themselves in the foot.

It does make a person wonder WHY review sites kept using the reference cards in reviews, but AMD set themselves up to be exploited and it happened.

Granted it was a sensitive choice that this heatspreader but the issue was actualy brought by reviewers following an Nvidia PR campaign, same with the FCAT that Nvidia is currently refusing as test gear for their own hardware, the irony and hypocrisy really, what AMD dont understand is that they have competitors that practice dirty tricks and viral marketing ad nauseam, on the other hand AMD is playing nice and fair at their own expenses.

See this slide :

You can see TressFX 3.0 explicitely released as fully open, no black boxes they say, the reference is to Gameworks wich is seen as a blackbox by AMD devellopers because they cant access the libraries.

So keep on playing nice while the competitions keep on playing dirty, surely that this will bring results./Sarcasm.