[hexus.net]AMD claims it will power another gaming device

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Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
It seems we need to post an Amdahl's law graph yet again.
AmdahlsLaw.svg


Game code is not embarrassingly parallel. The graphics portion of game code is embarrassingly parallel, but on the whole certain tasks will always have dependencies on other tasks because of the real-time nature of gaming. You can't go too far forward because the player can do something different, and future results depend on present actions. Ultimately a frame has to be assembled and presented to the player and there are many, many dependencies in this process which are time-consuming and difficult to unroll.

As you add more cores and parallelize more, you get less return for every thread added as you run into portions that cannot be parallelized. I don't know how many times it has to be said, not everything can be parallelized. It's literally computer science 101. At 2 thread engines, much of the low hanging fruit has been spawned off into the second thread. In 4 thread engines they have likely spawned off every easily divisible task. 6-8 thread engines must be designed to be parallel from its inception and the main game thread probably does very little actual work. At 8 threads you are quickly running into the law of diminishing returns in attempting to parallelize more tasks. Some tasks are more efficient to run in a serial manner but result in less throughput than a parallel implementation. At 8+ threads you likely have to design your actual game (gameplay) to utilize more threads; e.g. many AI actors in Assassin's Creed, 64-man Multiplayer in BF4.

It costs increasingly large amounts of money to get increasingly small amounts of performance gain as you add more cores. 8 cores is as close to a "sweet spot" as we'll see in the near future. The next-next-gen consoles ought to have 8 faster cores
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
No one is suggesting that the 6-8 cores in use in the consoles will provide the same performance as what a 10 - 14GHz single Jaguar core would be capable of (1.6Ghz - 1.75GHz x six available to eight total cores). Just that with the hardware in the current consoles we should expect to see more polish in multithreaded game engines and I would expect developers to continue to make a push in that direction.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,596
136
It seems we need to post an Amdahl's law graph yet again.
AmdahlsLaw.svg


Game code is not embarrassingly parallel. The graphics portion of game code is embarrassingly parallel, but on the whole certain tasks will always have dependencies on other tasks because of the real-time nature of gaming. You can't go too far forward because the player can do something different, and future results depend on present actions. Ultimately a frame has to be assembled and presented to the player and there are many, many dependencies in this process which are time-consuming and difficult to unroll.

As you add more cores and parallelize more, you get less return for every thread added as you run into portions that cannot be parallelized. I don't know how many times it has to be said, not everything can be parallelized. It's literally computer science 101. At 2 thread engines, much of the low hanging fruit has been spawned off into the second thread. In 4 thread engines they have likely spawned off every easily divisible task. 6-8 thread engines must be designed to be parallel from its inception and the main game thread probably does very little actual work. At 8 threads you are quickly running into the law of diminishing returns in attempting to parallelize more tasks. Some tasks are more efficient to run in a serial manner but result in less throughput than a parallel implementation. At 8+ threads you likely have to design your actual game (gameplay) to utilize more threads; e.g. many AI actors in Assassin's Creed, 64-man Multiplayer in BF4.

It costs increasingly large amounts of money to get increasingly small amounts of performance gain as you add more cores. 8 cores is as close to a "sweet spot" as we'll see in the near future. The next-next-gen consoles ought to have 8 faster cores

Look how expensive ipc is. Next gen console is going to have faster cores for sure but to keep the progress i am pretty sure we will see more cores as well. Bf4 is just the beginning. Next gen engines, without a mainthread - will shift the way game engines are build. That will in time change the way we look at the cpu..-..gpu.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
^There are plenty of games where a quad-core is significantly faster than a dual-core/i3, despite you implying that BF4 is really the only game that scales well with quads.

Try playing Crysis 3 or Ryse Son of Rome on a G3258 at 4.5Ghz. Moving forward dual cores are dead. If developers never try to learn how to make multi-threaded code, we'll eventually hit a brick wall. We need multi-threaded CPUs and games for advancements in AI/graphics to take place.

We already have enough modern titles that show a dual-core and an i3 are severely bottlenecking modern GPUs. While scaling is nowhere near commensurate to the increase in the number of threads/cores, every little bit helps.

Only 1 of your 4 graphs shows that a dualcore i3 isnt faster than 6-8 cores. What does that tell you?

Dualcores certainly aint dead. You have to wait a few more years for that prophecy.

I never claimed a dualcore was just as fast. Thats something you made up. I simply gave an example of one of the best threaded game due to its multiplayer part. And even then, scaling is rather poor. So less faster cores can give a better result. Specially in the constricted consoles.

And still, some code just cant be paralized in a meaningful way.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
146
106
No one is suggesting that the 6-8 cores in use in the consoles will provide the same performance as what a 10 - 14GHz single Jaguar core would be capable of (1.6Ghz - 1.75GHz x six available to eight total cores). Just that with the hardware in the current consoles we should expect to see more polish in multithreaded game engines and I would expect developers to continue to make a push in that direction.

The problem is, something like a quadcore 2.2Ghz Jaguar in the PS4 with 1 core for OS may have been quite significantly better due to scaling.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,525
6,050
136
The problem is, something like a quadcore 2.2Ghz Jaguar in the PS4 with 1 core for OS may have been quite significantly better due to scaling.

Yes, I am sure that both Sony and Microsoft just coincidentally decided to take 8 1.6GHz cores instead of 4 2.2GHz cores because both teams of highly paid hardware engineers happen to be dumber than you.

If they wanted 2.2GHz quad, they would have got it. AMD can push Jaguar quad core to 2.4GHz comfortably, 2.2 would be no problem. Both teams independently made the same decision. I put more faith in them than a bunch of armchair engineers on Anandtech forums.

What the hell was this thread even meant to be about again?
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
126
Yes, I am sure that both Sony and Microsoft just coincidentally decided to take 8 1.6GHz cores instead of 4 2.2GHz cores because both teams of highly paid hardware engineers happen to be dumber than you.

If they wanted 2.2GHz quad, they would have got it. AMD can push Jaguar quad core to 2.4GHz comfortably, 2.2 would be no problem. Both teams independently made the same decision. I put more faith in them than a bunch of armchair engineers on Anandtech forums.

What the hell was this thread even meant to be about again?

Now they can perhaps reach 2.2 or 2.4 ghz, but when the consoles were being designed, I dont think there was any jaguar even approaching 2ghz. In any case, I dont pretend to know why they chose 8 slower cores. I am sure there were many reasons, including cost, power usage, performance, whatever. Hell, I dont know, maybe part of it was marketing.

In any case, both sides are a bit absurd here. The cpu is adequate (barely IMO), but it is a special design made for a single purpose. I am sure games will be more multi-threaded, but per core performance still counts as well, as shown by a quad i5 beating an 8350 in nearly every gaming benchmark, sometimes be 30% or more.

However,I just am astounded by the outrage of some posters (not you specifically) when any hint of criticism is made of the cpu in the consoles. It is a compromise, and could well be the limiting factor in some games. That is not a bad thing, you have to to limited by something, otherwise you could have photo-realistic graphics at 120FPS at 4K resolution, and AI to rival a NSA wargame simulation. Surprisingly, even though the gpu is relatively much stronger than the cpu, nobody seems to be upset when it is suggested that the gpu is limiting.
 

Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
28
86
They went with the extra cores because they have visions of their consoles taking over much more of the home entertainment stack than just games. Basically 2 or 3 cores are just for whatever things Sony and MS want to try to throw into their devices. If AMD did win the next Wii design it will be interesting to see if Nintendo follows suit or goes for fewer faster cores.
 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
I don't buy the Jaguar hate. Without being a loss leader, the PS4 especially I think has shown itself to be a good upgrade to the PS3. Much like Cell and the Emotion Engine before it, there is plenty of vector performance available (via GPGPU). It just means taking some of that performance from graphics, which in the right circumstance is justifiable.

I think it's a shame that Nintendo didn't get their hands on a quad Jaguar or Llano instead of the god awful tri core PPC750 they put in the Wii U.
 
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monstercameron

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2013
3,818
1
0
I don't buy the Jaguar hate. Without being a loss leader, the PS4 especially I think has shown itself to be a good upgrade to the PS3. Much like Cell and the Emotion Engine before it, there is plenty of vector performance available (via GPGPU). It just means taking some of that performance from graphics, which in the right circumstance is justifiable.

I think it's a shame that Nintendo didn't get their hands on a quad Jaguar or Llano instead of the god awful tri core PPC750 they put in the Wii U.

well their alleged 2016 console might rectify that.

...:sneaky: watch it be a kaveri apu with gddr5...
 

Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
The problem is you think you know more than Sony and Microsoft combined.

Solid appeal to authority post. I guess you must be out of substantive arguments then?

It will be interesting to see, if this really is a new Nintendo Wii-U successor, what kind of cores and in what number they choose for CPU. I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo went with asymmetrical cores even...
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,991
627
126
Solid appeal to authority post.
It's factual nothing more. As for Nintendo they have not been concerned with high performance the last few generations so they are probably not going to be any sort of indicator on what the best architectural style is to go with.
 

MisterLilBig

Senior member
Apr 15, 2014
291
0
76
Game code is not embarrassingly parallel. The graphics portion of game code is embarrassingly parallel, but on the whole certain tasks will always have dependencies on other tasks because of the real-time nature of gaming. You can't go too far forward because the player can do something different, and future results depend on present actions. Ultimately a frame has to be assembled and presented to the player and there are many, many dependencies in this process which are time-consuming and difficult to unroll. As you add more cores and parallelize more, you get less return for every thread added as you run into portions that cannot be parallelized. I don't know how many times it has to be said, not everything can be parallelized. It's literally computer science 101. At 2 thread engines, much of the low hanging fruit has been spawned off into the second thread. In 4 thread engines they have likely spawned off every easily divisible task. 6-8 thread engines must be designed to be parallel from its inception and the main game thread probably does very little actual work. At 8 threads you are quickly running into the law of diminishing returns in attempting to parallelize more tasks. Some tasks are more efficient to run in a serial manner but result in less throughput than a parallel implementation. At 8+ threads you likely have to design your actual game (gameplay) to utilize more threads; e.g. many AI actors in Assassin's Creed, 64-man Multiplayer in BF4. It costs increasingly large amounts of money to get increasingly small amounts of performance gain as you add more cores. 8 cores is as close to a "sweet spot" as we'll see in the near future. The next-next-gen consoles ought to have 8 faster cores

What specific type of game code cannot be made parallel?


I don't think Nintendo would switch to x86. Could AMD design a PPC SoC if Nintendo wanted them to do so? Not sure how the PPC stuff is working at the moment.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,596
136
Surprisingly, even though the gpu is relatively much stronger than the cpu,....

Well as sony and ms thought different than you why dont you make a argument for that claim?

Thread after thread and ot every time this unsubstatiated claim is made. 8 times a day by the same 4 people. Whitout any argument.

1.5 year ago Shintai shouted out loud for months each day that the ps4 or xbox would never get amd apu. Then it did. Then he continue to shout the usual hate. How much different is it what you do here? You add nothing than derailing the thread also about the usual cpu stuff.

My proposal is to make a thread for it and keep it out of the other threads.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,851
16,114
136
--Originally Posted by itsmydamnation
--The other annoying thing is calling jaguar weak, it isn't.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/relativity

See definition 1.

...

Oh, so when one member calls another member a moron it is really not an offence or a callout, it is just stating the fact that some other dude/gal is in fact smarter than the moron/member in question, you know, relatively speaking. Ill get the popcorn while you explain that one to the mods.. I love these logic-101 sessions :).
 
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Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
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Well as sony and ms thought different than you why dont you make a argument for that claim?

Thread after thread and ot every time this unsubstatiated claim is made. 8 times a day by the same 4 people. Whitout any argument.

1.5 year ago Shintai shouted out loud for months each day that the ps4 or xbox would never get amd apu. Then it did. Then he continue to shout the usual hate. How much different is it what you do here? You add nothing than derailing the thread also about the usual cpu stuff.

My proposal is to make a thread for it and keep it out of the other threads.

So you are seriously trying to claim that a tablet cpu is relatively stronger than a HD7850/7870 equivalent gpu with 5gb of GDDR5? Thanks for proving my point.
 

Lepton87

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2009
2,544
9
81
Yes, I am sure that both Sony and Microsoft just coincidentally decided to take 8 1.6GHz cores instead of 4 2.2GHz cores because both teams of highly paid hardware engineers happen to be dumber than you.

If they wanted 2.2GHz quad, they would have got it. AMD can push Jaguar quad core to 2.4GHz comfortably, 2.2 would be no problem. Both teams independently made the same decision. I put more faith in them than a bunch of armchair engineers on Anandtech forums.

What the hell was this thread even meant to be about again?

That's wrong, XBOX ONE has the CPU cores clocked at 1.75 GHz the change in frequency from 1.6GHz was made very late just before launch.)
 
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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Woof. And that is why you never respond to a "what would you do" posted question because the end result will be "well I trust said company more than your opinion."

But what makes it amusing is, this person is going to put his coin in one of these companies cup, not sure if knowingly, after this company gaffed their launch, back pedal all their original software designs, scrapped one of the "foundations" of their experience, tripped their software roll out, and have been basically playing catch up since the start of this generation.

But sure, these companies are infallible. Because the ESRAM selection was a stroke of genius.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
That sure was a brainfart of epic proportions.

Of course it was. And they are paying heavily for it now. And if you believe some of the tin-foil hatting, the push for parity is hurting the other company too.

Yet stating "these consoles are under powered" in a tech forum (not the console section mind you) is responded with "no way, what do you know!"
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,918
1,570
136
The problem is you think you know more than Sony and Microsoft combined.

The problem is that you seem to think that Sony and MS cares about the games, they just dont care about it, they just do wharever they think is more profitable and devs just have to suck it up and adapt, devs have no option here.
 

MiddleOfTheRoad

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2014
1,123
5
0
The problem is that you seem to think that Sony and MS cares about the games, they just dont care about it, they just do wharever they think is more profitable and devs just have to suck it up and adapt, devs have no option here.

So now you are an authority of Microsoft and Sony's business plans, too?
Man, we can get in trouble talking to someone with so much insider information (insider trading, eh?).
 

III-V

Senior member
Oct 12, 2014
678
1
41
Oh, so when one member calls another member a moron it is really not an offence or a callout, it is just stating the fact that some other dude/gal is in fact smarter than the moron/member in question, you know, relatively speaking. Ill get the popcorn while you explain that one to the mods.. I love these logic-101 sessions :).
If one is too emotional about their hardware to keep things in perspective, they have no business being here.