Herman Cain's '999 plan'

[Ausm]

Well not as laughable as it it wrong:
http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/mh5/research/saving.pdf

People arguing that personal savings goes down (ie consumption goes up) as a function of income are either morons or have agenda to push.

No I am arguing that the more you consume with a 9% tax would cost poor people a lot more then people who are extremely wealthy because poor people have to spend almost all their disposable income to survive.

 

[a777pilot]

You do realize that your proposal would singlehandedly kill the stock markets and capital investment in general? Noone would buy any stock unless they were sure of at least a 9 percent return, and any company thinking of adding a new machine/production line/location would have to take into account the additional upfront 9% expense.

I think you are going a lot further than Cain, for I can't imagaine any GOP candidate trying to kill their benefactors on Wall Street. The GOP went absolutely hysterical last summer when a very tiny "sales tax" on stock transactions was proposed to pay for the Wall Street reforms-a proposal that was killed.

Cain has a lot of similarities to Ron Paul-both have simple sounding plans that are appealing until you do sixty seconds of analysis about them. They are counting upon people blindly swallowing their BS.

Personally I think the rent's too damn high guy makes more sense.

It would in fact stabilize the markets. Day trading would be a thing of the past. Besides, I never said my system would be a 9% tax, now did I?

Right now I can invest but any profits are taxed. Again, under my system ALL gains would NOT be taxed. Yes, there would be risk, and that risk is an up front tax but the rewards would be even greater.

 

[Ausm]

There is no real reason to have a property tax. Maybe property tax should be progressive like income tax. The more property you own the higher your tax! Then no taxes at all if it is your primary residence (Under 4 acres).

Run that thought process past your leaders in your local community once and can I be there to watch ?

 

[a777pilot]

Save it? Go on a trip to a foreign country and spend it there? Spend it in the massive black market that will pop up once a national sales tax is created. Donate it. Etc. Etc.

Rich people don't spend any where near all their incomes. Hell I am no where near rich, and I save more than 50% of my household income.

You can take your money out of the country but you would pay a tax under my system.

How would you spend your money on the "black market" with out transferring it? Once you transfer it, it is taxed under my system.

Donate it if you want, but under my system it would be taxed. Did I say anything about exemptions of any kind?

That's great that you save that much, but what do YOU consider saving? If it is not in a commercial bank savings account or a government savings bond, then under my system it would be taxed. Saving and government bonds produce capitol for private businesses and bonds produce working capitol for governments. Both "good" things under my system.

 

[Ausm]

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...-9-9-tax-plan-is-simple-youll-simply-pay-more

Good Read on some numbers of the 999 plan.

 

[a777pilot]

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...-9-9-tax-plan-is-simple-youll-simply-pay-more

Good Read on some numbers of the 999 plan.

This is one of the great things about Mr. Cain's proposel....we get to have a debate. A debate is a good thing. It makes those that like the idea to understand it better and it make those that might not like it to think about it.

 

[a777pilot]

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...-9-9-tax-plan-is-simple-youll-simply-pay-more

Good Read on some numbers of the 999 plan.

Repatriating, tax free, over one trillion dollars is a great idea. That money will mostly be used as investment capitol and create jobs. Lots of jobs.

What is not to like about that?

 

[jstern01]

Repatriating, tax free, over one trillion dollars is a great idea. That money will mostly be used as investment capitol and create jobs. Lots of jobs.

What is not to like about that?

No company is going to use the repatriate monies to create jobs. Hell they could use that money now, and they don't. Until people start spending again, no corporation is going to expand until the consumers are spending. So no spending, no jobs, picture our economy spiraling down the toilet.

 

[Bird222]

that's from an legal burden standpoint. iow, it's worthless. from an economic standpoint the worker is usually the one who pays the payroll tax.


a company is going to produce up until where the marginal production equals the marginal cost. the marginal cost for a new employee mostly consists of the total compensation of the employee. that is salary, benefits, and any fees/taxes such as employer's share of payroll taxes or unemployment insurance. the company does not care whether those things are paid in 100% cash directly to the employee or not.

That's fine for the employer, but my point was Cain claiming that the employee is going to get the benefit of that tax cut to offset the 9% in sales tax he/she would have to pay under his plan.

 

[a777pilot]

No company is going to use the repatriate monies to create jobs. Hell they could use that money now, and they don't. Until people start spending again, no corporation is going to expand until the consumers are spending. So no spending, no jobs, picture our economy spiraling down the toilet.

You could be right, but what are these companies going to do with this estimated up to $2 trillion from overseas profits? Put it under their mattress or bury it in the back yard?

 

[halik]

No I am arguing that the more you consume with a 9% tax would cost poor people a lot more then people who are extremely wealthy because poor people have to spend almost all their disposable income to survive.

Well yeah, I was responding to what a777pilot said and you quoted. The notion that wealthy spend more of their disposable income than the poor is idiotic.

 

[Craig234]

You could be right, but what are these companies going to do with this estimated up to $2 trillion from overseas profits? Put it under their mattress or bury it in the back yard?

They're going to use it to buy the assets of the country on the cheap after the wealth of Americans is wiped out more, as they did after the great depression.

 

[Ausm]

Well yeah, I was responding to what a777pilot said and you quoted. The notion that wealthy spend more of their disposable income than the poor is idiotic.

LOLwut?? I think something got lost in the translation oh well please move on

 

[werepossum]

You can't in one breath say it won't decrease consumer demand, and in another say it will encourage "savings." It's either one or the other, not both. Like it or lump it, our economy is fueled by consumer demand. We buy fewer things, people are out of work. If you're out of work, zero income taxes is irrelevant.

How does this play with existing state sales taxes? We have 9.25% state sales tax in CA. What would a federal sales tax have to be if we abolished all other federal taxes? Should we switch off of state sales tax and increase state income taxes?

Are we going to tax services as well as goods? It seems to me that the government shouldn't be picking winners and losers with this burdensome consumer tax so we'd have to tax everything equally. Would any services be exempted? Healthcare?

What do we do about people buying things from abroad, over the internet? That's the single most disastrous thing that could happen to the economy, for money to be flowing out to foreign vendors.

Finally, sales taxes ARE regressive, no matter how they look on paper. Those with less income spend a higher percentage of what they make by necessity, and hence will pay a higher percentage of their total income as taxes. Furthermore, under the existing state sales tax regimes, where services are exempted, it's even more regressive, because lower income people spend more on goods relative to services than higher income people. For example, how many poor people can afford a lawyer, an accountant, or a maid?

- wolf

To be clear, a national sales tax won't automatically decrease consumer spending, assuming that government withdraws the same total amount from the economy. It will encourage savings, which will immediately decrease consumer spending but increase consumer spending later as these savers retire and with their savings can spend more and have a better life. Also, remember that saved wealth is invested to produce new wealth. If you really want to drive the economy with consumer spending then government could seize every dollar not spent and spend it, but our economy would soon crumble as no capital venture not fundable out of a company's cash stream could ever happen unless government funded it. (<cough> Solyndra.) Likewise, no new significant business could ever happen, as there would be no available investment capital to fund it. Spending is NOT the panacea you guys think it is.

People buying foreign things would be a problem; it's a huge problem now, now that import taxes are largely a thing of the past. I'd tax all money transferred out of the country and all goods flowing into it. Anything imported would thus be double taxed. And I would tax all new goods (which would encourage recycling/reusing and discourage conspicuous consumption) and also all services.

 

[ElFenix]

So,uhh, do you really think that employers will grant employees the portion of SS they now pay? Or will they just keep it?

Inquiring minds want to know if you're truly delusional...

part of it, yes. they won't do it out of the goodness of their hearts of course (i take issue with your use of the word 'grant'), but because the market forces work out that way.

That's fine for the employer, but my point was Cain claiming that the employee is going to get the benefit of that tax cut to offset the 9&#37; in sales tax he/she would have to pay under his plan.

re-read what i wrote. do it until you understand.

 

[Jhhnn]

I am in favor of a 0% federal tax rate for those with the lowest incomes. What I am against is them getting back 1000's of dollars more than they paid in. I don't care about other taxes people pay. That is a state issue for the most part take that up with states who tax to much. Also those taxes they pay don't even come close to paying for things they use like Medicare.

Think of EITC as a subsidy for multinational employers who don't pay fer shit, like WalMart. Go to work for them, and they'll do their dead level best to hook you up to every govt cheese program you're legally eligible for, and they know how to do it. It's part & parcel of their whole HR methodology.

If you think EITC recipients are coming out on the good side, just think of what it does for the Walton heirs...

 

[a777pilot]

It is obvious that none of you understand what I am proposing. You are all still stuck on income, rates and exemptions.

I guess that is why we still have an antiquated system that is way past effective and fair....to anyone. The current system is a total failure.

 

[Phokus]

People buying foreign things would be a problem; it's a huge problem now, now that import taxes are largely a thing of the past. I'd tax all money transferred out of the country and all goods flowing into it. Anything imported would thus be double taxed. And I would tax all new goods (which would encourage recycling/reusing and discourage conspicuous consumption) and also all services.

B-b-b-b-ut that's socialism!

 

[ElFenix]

B-b-b-b-ut that's socialism!

i'm trying to figure out what's socialism about good ol' protectionism

 

[bfdd]

No I am arguing that the more you consume with a 9% tax would cost poor people a lot more then people who are extremely wealthy because poor people have to spend almost all their disposable income to survive.

that doesn't fucking matter. they can take cost saving methods to save money in which they in turn could invest in material to make products or invest in businesses that make products. obviously their small investment isn't going to make them tons of money in the short term, but so? waah, life isn't fair not everyone is equal get the fuck over it. the best thing we can do is treat everyone equally under law but YOU wouldn't like that would you? no you wouldn't, so you're a champion for inequality.

 

[Ausm]

that doesn't fucking matter. they can take cost saving methods to save money in which they in turn could invest in material to make products or invest in businesses that make products. obviously their small investment isn't going to make them tons of money in the short term, but so? waah, life isn't fair not everyone is equal get the fuck over it. the best thing we can do is treat everyone equally under law but YOU wouldn't like that would you? no you wouldn't, so you're a champion for inequality.

I am a champion for inequality and this is coming from a Republican stooge?? LMFAO You are TRULY delusional if you think this tax plan is anything but a sloppy wet kiss for the most affluent in our Society.


I will give you a couple real life examples, What do you think is going to happen to e new housing industry when there is a fat 9&#37; tax on top of all other taxes which would equate to a 9,000 increase in cost for every 100K?

What would happen to the automobile industry if everyone who was going to buy a new car would be hammered with a 9% tax? Sure the Rich wouldn't give a fuck but the numbers of Rich people are greatly dwarfed compared to the regular PEONS in Society which equates to much less consumption.

 

[Atreus21]

How Cain should propose his 999 plan:

"You'll have to pass it to see how it works."

 

[Craig234]

Like every Republican plan, this is about a further wealth shift to the rich.

An estimate tonight said 9-9-9 would double income taxes on the middle class.

 

[Atreus21]

Like every Republican plan, this is about a further wealth shift to the rich.

An estimate tonight said 9-9-9 would double income taxes on the middle class.

Dammit Craig, you went and blew the lid off the whole ruse. Now the world knows our secret plan.

 

[xBiffx]

How Cain should propose his 999 plan:

"You'll have to pass it to see how it works."

His version of reaching across the aisle I guess. But this we be more like joining the other side of the aisle.