here we go! Wisconsin recount is happening

[werepossum]

Why?

Because we cannot get "integrity back in the system" unless we start with all and only legal voters. Precisely counting illegally cast votes is not integrity, it's precision in the lack of integrity. Neither is discounting votes which should be legal.

 

[fskimospy]

Not to gainsay Rachel Smith, but Al Franken started with fewer votes and ended with more votes in the same process that created more ballots than were cast. Only in proggie math does that equal a "net even distribution of votes".

The recounts involved a lot more than duplicate votes. It is entirely possible that the specific 'duplicate ballot' process could have led to a net even distribution of votes while the recount process as a whole showed an advantage for Franken. So if by 'proggie math' you mean 'actual math', then sure.

By the way, can't help but notice that not only did you conveniently leave out the parts of your article that went against what you said (again, entirely innocently I'm sure) but your other claims of conspiracy that you felt so confident in also seem to have disappeared after they turned out to be conservative frauds. You didn't mention anything about those either though, why?

 

[werepossum]

Have you considered that your claims here are actually evidence of your own tenuous relationship with reality?

Perhaps you can link us up to some of your posts admitting that conservatives and/or Republicans are practically and/or morally correct on some political issue. Purely to help me better my grasp of reality, of course.

 

[Brainonska511]

It's true

http://truethevote.org/statement-regarding-trump’s-claim-illegal-voting

Why is Trump's statement true? Linking to a biased source does nothing to back up the legitimacy of Trump's claim.

 

[buckshot24]

No one is completely objective. That being said, all people are not even remotely equally objective.[\QUOTE]Of course not. Just trying to keep it real here, we're all "hacks" to a certain degree. We have our biases and it takes some people more pushing to get to certain conclusions than others because of them.

 

[werepossum]

The recounts involved a lot more than duplicate votes. It is entirely possible that the specific 'duplicate ballot' process could have led to a net even distribution of votes while the recount process as a whole showed an advantage for Franken. So if by 'proggie math' you mean 'actual math', then sure.

By the way, can't help but notice that not only did you conveniently leave out the parts of your article that went against what you said (again, entirely innocently I'm sure) but your other claims of conspiracy that you felt so confident in also seem to have disappeared after they turned out to be conservative frauds. You didn't mention anything about those either though, why?

Here's something on New Mexico.
http://www.usconstitution.net/elec2000.html

Meanwhile, with the outcome of Florida uncertain, other states start to show signs of trouble. In New Mexico, Gore had an early lead, but a programming error was found that pushed Bush into the lead. His lead was so slim as to trigger a recount. During recounts, as few as four votes separated them, before another error was found that gave Gore a 500 vote advantage. In Oregon, which uses a mail-in ballot only, delays in counting votes caused the election returns to be delayed, though Gore maintained a more sizeable lead (though still "slim": 5000 votes out of 1.4 million). Both camps began to eye close races in other states, to see if recounts might be warranted. Neither New Mexico nor Oregon alone or combined would win the election for either man, but some other combination of states could.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Starting with the strict requirement of government-issued photo ID indicating citizenship and a national database of felons along with when they become eligible for voting again.

While I don't think in person voter fraud happens enough to justify the complexity of what you're saying its like Trumps wall. I'm alright with it even though I doubt it will change anything. Here's the challenge.
Open plenty of places to get an ID
Staff these places so there is minimal wait
Have after work & weekend hours
Have a consistent mandate to keep them open and staffed, no closing or under staffing sites in areas that don't vote the way the State wants
Training and consistent review of IDs. I don't want to hear every Mexican or College guy gets flagged for a suspicious ID
Fast replacement for lost IDs even on election day
Free ID or pocket change type cost
Ample free parking at ID stations, ideally near public transportation
IDs for people who can't have a driver license, like a guy who lost it for OUI or a blind guy
Plus figure out a way to pay for it that doesn't involve trickery like cost reductions or future savings
A process to immediately determine quickly and accurately if an ID valid
No generating extra wait time to vote or at minimum make voting last more than one day
Sell your Conservative Brothers on the idea of a National Registry because they've fought similar ideas for a National Database in the past.
Above also brings up another Challenge keep a paper and an offline copy of this data incase a nefarious power hacks into it, one of the big advantages now is the elections are decentralized and difficult to hack. Bringing IDs and electronic verification into the mix makes it easier to hack.

 

[fskimospy]

Perhaps you can link us up to some of your posts admitting that conservatives and/or Republicans are practically and/or morally correct on some political issue. Purely to help me better my grasp of reality, of course.

I don't have much faith in you being able to regain your grasp on reality, but as a few examples I believe conservatives are right that charter schools are a good thing, I believe conservatives are right to advocate for free trade, I think conservatives are right to favor market based solutions as opposed to top-down regulation, I think conservatives are right that we should lower tax rates across the board, financed by eliminating deductions, I think conservatives are right to reject protectionist zoning policy, etc. etc.

We've had this discussion before and I've said many similar things. I know it's inconvenient for you that you can't view me as the some irrational ideologue because then you have to actually consider that you've said some awfully stupid things over the years.

 

[fskimospy]

Here's something on New Mexico.
http://www.usconstitution.net/elec2000.html

So in other words two programming errors, one in favor of each candidate, are evidence of Democratic election fraud? Why wouldn't it be evidence of Republican election fraud then?

 

[werepossum]

While I don't think in person voter fraud happens enough to justify the complexity of what you're saying its like Trumps wall. I'm alright with it even though I doubt it will change anything. Here's the challenge.
Open plenty of places to get an ID
Staff these places so there is minimal wait
Have after work & weekend hours
Have a consistent mandate to keep them open and staffed, no closing or under staffing sites in areas that don't vote the way the State wants
Training and consistent review of IDs. I don't want to hear every Mexican or College guy gets flagged for a suspicious ID
Fast replacement for lost IDs even on election day
Free ID or pocket change type cost
Ample free parking at ID stations, ideally near public transportation
IDs for people who can't have a driver license, like a guy who lost it for OUI or a blind guy
Plus figure out a way to pay for it that doesn't involve trickery like cost reductions or future savings
A process to immediately determine quickly and accurately if an ID valid
No generating extra wait time to vote or at minimum make voting last more than one day

Those are all sensible requirements. I'll go you a few better: mandatory number of polling places by number of registered voters or maximum distance (whichever is more), voting machines to be uniform statewide, an absolute requirement for paper ballots which can be clearly hand counted, and an absolute end to the practice of creating duplicate ballots. Let the originals be hand counted and retained, which is both less labor intensive and less susceptible to fraud.

 

[jackstar7]

Because we cannot get "integrity back in the system" unless we start with all and only legal voters. Precisely counting illegally cast votes is not integrity, it's precision in the lack of integrity. Neither is discounting votes which should be legal.

Then we should start with mandatory voting. So all legal voters participate.

Probably make it a paid holiday, too.

 

[werepossum]

I don't have much faith in you being able to regain your grasp on reality, but as a few examples I believe conservatives are right that charter schools are a good thing, I believe conservatives are right to advocate for free trade, I think conservatives are right to favor market based solutions as opposed to top-down regulation, I think conservatives are right that we should lower tax rates across the board, financed by eliminating deductions, I think conservatives are right to reject protectionist zoning policy, etc. etc.

We've had this discussion before and I've said many similar things. I know it's inconvenient for you that you can't view me as the some irrational ideologue because then you have to actually consider that you've said some awfully stupid things over the years.

How about one specific instance on these forums where you can came down on the side of Republicans and/or conservatives on an actual issue? Otherwise it's just Andrew Sullivan conservatism: I am against gun control, but this particular gun control bill is just common sense. Or I am against special protections for homosexuals, but everyone needs to vote for this one bill providing special protections for homosexuals. Or I am in favor of lower tax rates across the board, but I oppose this particular bill lowering tax rates across the board.

 

[werepossum]

Then we should start with mandatory voting. So all legal voters participate.

Probably make it a paid holiday, too.

Because . . . you can only have integrity if you force someone to do something and force someone else to pay them for it?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Those are all sensible requirements. I'll go you a few better: mandatory number of polling places by number of registered voters or maximum distance (whichever is more), voting machines to be uniform statewide, an absolute requirement for paper ballots which can be clearly hand counted, and an absolute end to the practice of creating duplicate ballots. Let the originals be hand counted and retained, which is both less labor intensive and less susceptible to fraud.

I can't figure out why places bother with the weird punch cards or touch screens. They just generate problems.
Where I vote you either complete an arrow or color a clearly identified bubble. You can put it in a "privacy" sleeve if you choose, then walk over to a counter that you feed it into, that counts it & stores the paper. Simple to understand and fast to process plus it doesn't rely on coordination to push a button on a screen or flip a switch.
Its old, durable and cheap plus each machine is its own locked box.

 

[jackstar7]

Because . . . you can only have integrity if you force someone to do something and force someone else to pay them for it?

You want the vote to be representative of the whole will of the people, no?

If not, why not?

 

[fskimospy]

How about one specific instance on these forums where you can came down on the side of Republicans and/or conservatives on an actual issue? Otherwise it's just Andrew Sullivan conservatism: I am against gun control, but this particular gun control bill is just common sense.

Free trade IS an actual issue, one that comes up all the time. Until VERY recently conservatives were all big fans of free trade while liberals were (broadly) not. I can't remember how many times on here I've been accused of being some traitorous liberal for not wanting to close our borders. Even now most conservatives are free traders. Think of all the WTO protests, etc, from liberals over the years. I agree with Republicans on this one that we should continue to expand free trade.

Feel free to admit your characterization was wrong at your leisure.

Or I am against special protections for homosexuals, but everyone needs to vote for this one bill providing special protections for homosexuals.

Neither Sullivan or me is for special protections for gay people, we already had this discussion before where you falsely tried to claim that gay people had special protections when in reality everyone was equally protected.

Or I am in favor of lower tax rates across the board, but I oppose this particular bill lowering tax rates across the board.

If you can show me a single tax bill that lowers rates across the board, isn't regressive, and is revenue neutral I would support that in a second. What's funny is that this is what conservatives claim they want all the time, yet they never do it.

 

[werepossum]

I can't figure out why places bother with the weird punch cards or touch screens. They just generate problems.
Where I vote you either complete an arrow or color a clearly identified bubble. You can put it in a "privacy" sleeve if you choose, then walk over to a counter that you feed it into, that counts it & stores the paper. Simple to understand and fast to process plus it doesn't rely on coordination to push a button on a screen or flip a switch.
Its old, durable and cheap plus each machine is its own locked box.

Agreed. I suspect the punch cards or touch screen machines are purchased almost exclusively because of the need to do a favor for the people selling them.

 

[werepossum]

You want the vote to be representative of the whole will of the people, no?

If not, why not?

I want the vote to be representative of the people who care enough to vote and are legally entitled to do so. If someone feels unqualified to select our leadership, I'll take him at his word.

 

[Thump553]

Starting with the strict requirement of government-issued photo ID indicating citizenship and a national database of felons along with when they become eligible for voting again.

An audit is an audit. You are talking about creating who new rules AFTER the election takes place-with the intent to disqualify votes that qualified with all the rules in place at the time they were made.

As others have said so many, many times before-if you guys have ACTUAL PROOF of fraudulent voting, come out with it. This is something the GOP has been totally unable to do despite a decade long push to institute so-called strict voter ID requirements.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Then we should start with mandatory voting. So all legal voters participate.

Probably make it a paid holiday, too.

You probably want to march them there at the point of a gun too.

 

[werepossum]

Free trade IS an actual issue, one that comes up all the time. Until VERY recently conservatives were all big fans of free trade while liberals were (broadly) not. I can't remember how many times on here I've been accused of being some traitorous liberal for not wanting to close our borders. Even now most conservatives are free traders. Think of all the WTO protests, etc, from liberals over the years. I agree with Republicans on this one that we should continue to expand free trade.

Feel free to admit your characterization was wrong at your leisure.



Neither Sullivan or me is for special protections for gay people, we already had this discussion before where you falsely tried to claim that gay people had special protections when in reality everyone was equally protected.



If you can show me a single tax bill that lowers rates across the board, isn't regressive, and is revenue neutral I would support that in a second. What's funny is that this is what conservatives claim they want all the time, yet they never do it.

lol So the evidence of your conservative leaning is in your desire for an open border. Hmmm, wonder which party has been pushing that . . . By the way, that is EXACTLY what I was describing, adopting a left position and pretending that it is a right position.

One little post. Surely that's not a bridge too far.

 

[jackstar7]

You probably want to march them there at the point of a gun too.

Why do you say that?

 

[fskimospy]

lol So the evidence of your conservative leaning is in your desire for an open border. Hmmm, wonder which party has been pushing that . . . By the way, that is EXACTLY what I was describing, adopting a left position and pretending that it is a right position.

Wait... you're now trying to say that free trade, the cutting of government taxes, regulations and restrictions on private business transactions, is a liberal position?

That is a truly incredible statement. I mean talk about epic levels of self-delusion.

One little post. Surely that's not a bridge too far.

Pick one to your liking!

https://forums.anandtech.com/search/118923/?q=free+trade&t=post&o=date&c[user][0]=191266

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Why do you say that?

Because Authoritarians like to make everything mandatory, it's what they do.

 

[bshole]

Then we should start with mandatory voting. So all legal voters participate.

Probably make it a paid holiday, too.

There is no way they can make me vote. I will leave this country before doing something so repugnant.