Here is a question for the christians

[Xionide]

I am agnostic. My belief is that all religeons are cults. I also believe everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want. Even if I do think it's crazy. One of my main arguments with the christian religeon is praying and asking god for help. Because if he did help you in any way wouldn't that be affecting the supposed free will he has given us.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Originally posted by: Xionide
I am agnostic. My belief is that all religeons are cults. I also believe everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want. Even if I do think it's crazy. One of my main arguments with the christian religeon is praying and asking god for help. Because if he did help you in any way wouldn't that be affecting the supposed free will he has given us.

i pray for mercy not help.... i think god has the ability to manipulate reality in its entirety.... but within that reality, i make my own decisions....

 

[iamtrout]

What.... if someone helps you change a flat tire... they are "affecting your supposed free will?"

Huh?

 

[NiteWulf]

Originally posted by: iamtrout
What.... if someone helps you change a flat tire... they are "affecting your supposed free will?"

Huh?

/thread?

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Put the pipe down.

Okay lets say you pray. Pray for, um, how about a new car. If you don't get a new car, big deal. Nobody's changing anything. Your free will hasn't been effected. If you DO get your new car, big deal. Your free will hasn't been effected.

How does prayer effect free will, again?

 

[Gunslinger08]

I think you're asking the wrong question.

Free will and fatalism are two things that can't co-exist. I have a big problem with Christians who believe in fatalism.

And there are even some who believe in fatalism and the power of prayer.... now that just makes no sense at all. If God had planned for you to get cancer and die, 5000 people praying for you is not going to change that, if you believe that everything is pre-planned.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Determinism and Free will can coexist though.....

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I think you're asking the wrong question.

Free will and fatalism are two things that can't co-exist. I have a big problem with Christians who believe in fatalism.

And there are even some who believe in fatalism and the power of prayer.... now that just makes no sense at all. If God had planned for you to get cancer and die, 5000 people praying for you is not going to change that, if you believe that everything is pre-planned.

Just because people pray doesn't mean that what they pray about must come to pass and any christian worth their weight in fly poop would know this. I'm not going to get into the whole "death is healing" or "pray the heart of god" crap -that's another discussion.

 

[Megatomic]

Originally posted by: Xionide
I am agnostic. My belief is that all religeons are cults. I also believe everyone has the right to believe in whatever they want. Even if I do think it's crazy. One of my main arguments with the christian religeon is praying and asking god for help. Because if he did help you in any way wouldn't that be affecting the supposed free will he has given us.

Why is that your arguement against christianity? I think religious people of all faiths ask their deity for assistance...

And iamtrout has an excellent point.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I think you're asking the wrong question.

Free will and fatalism are two things that can't co-exist. I have a big problem with Christians who believe in fatalism.

And there are even some who believe in fatalism and the power of prayer.... now that just makes no sense at all. If God had planned for you to get cancer and die, 5000 people praying for you is not going to change that, if you believe that everything is pre-planned.

Just because people pray doesn't mean that what they pray about must come to pass and any christian worth their weight in fly poop would know this. I'm not going to get into the whole "death is healing" or "pray the heart of god" crap -that's another discussion.

I am constantly surrounded by other Christians. They all believe that their prayer can change things in the world, but also believe that their lives were pre-scripted.

 

[Lyfer]

Wrong Forum.

 

[timosyy]

The question posed in the OP has been effectively wrapped up without a multi-page flamefest.

ATOT, I tip my hat to you.

 

[Sphexi]

God helps those who help themselves. People who pray constantly for things never get them, only because prayer doesn't work that way. You pray for the wisdom to help you make the correct decision, you pray for the strength to help you do what you need to, you pray for forgiveness for those things you shouldn't have done.

You do not pray for money, for free stuff, for God to up and heal you with some miracle. Such things are petty and selfish, and not what God is about.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I think you're asking the wrong question.

Free will and fatalism are two things that can't co-exist. I have a big problem with Christians who believe in fatalism.

And there are even some who believe in fatalism and the power of prayer.... now that just makes no sense at all. If God had planned for you to get cancer and die, 5000 people praying for you is not going to change that, if you believe that everything is pre-planned.

Just because people pray doesn't mean that what they pray about must come to pass and any christian worth their weight in fly poop would know this. I'm not going to get into the whole "death is healing" or "pray the heart of god" crap -that's another discussion.

I am constantly surrounded by other Christians. They all believe that their prayer can change things in the world, but also believe that their lives were pre-scripted.

What a bunch of idiots. I bet most of them were either raised in the church and lived "Christian" their entire lives or from a very young age, right?

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Sphexi
God helps those who help themselves. People who pray constantly for things never get them, only because prayer doesn't work that way. You pray for the wisdom to help you make the correct decision, you pray for the strength to help you do what you need to, you pray for forgiveness for those things you shouldn't have done.

You do not pray for money, for free stuff, for God to up and heal you with some miracle. Such things are petty and selfish, and not what God is about.

Oh my. This is turning into a doctrinal discussion.

*backs away slowly*

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: joshsquall
I think you're asking the wrong question.

Free will and fatalism are two things that can't co-exist. I have a big problem with Christians who believe in fatalism.

And there are even some who believe in fatalism and the power of prayer.... now that just makes no sense at all. If God had planned for you to get cancer and die, 5000 people praying for you is not going to change that, if you believe that everything is pre-planned.

Just because people pray doesn't mean that what they pray about must come to pass and any christian worth their weight in fly poop would know this. I'm not going to get into the whole "death is healing" or "pray the heart of god" crap -that's another discussion.

I am constantly surrounded by other Christians. They all believe that their prayer can change things in the world, but also believe that their lives were pre-scripted.

What a bunch of idiots. I bet most of them were either raised in the church and lived "Christian" their entire lives or from a very young age, right?

Of course. It seems like they are usually the ones who think the least about what they practice and believe. I don't know how it can really be a belief if you haven't even thought it out and realized that it actually makes sense.

 

[Sphexi]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Sphexi
God helps those who help themselves. People who pray constantly for things never get them, only because prayer doesn't work that way. You pray for the wisdom to help you make the correct decision, you pray for the strength to help you do what you need to, you pray for forgiveness for those things you shouldn't have done.

You do not pray for money, for free stuff, for God to up and heal you with some miracle. Such things are petty and selfish, and not what God is about.

Oh my. This is turning into a doctrinal discussion.

*backs away slowly*

Not at all. I've never seen any other way to pray, it's just seemed wrong to ask some sort of almighty diety for a new car, or a set of tires, or an extra $1.50 an hour at work. Nobody would ever learn anything that way. But asking God to give you the wisdom to do your job better, thus leading to you getting a raise, makes a hell of a lot more sense.


Sucks that most people don't think that way, they simply want things and want them now, and when it doesn't happen they take that as fact that God doesn't exist.

*shrugs*

 

[Sentinel]

God has a way to lead you in the direction best for you, whether or not you take some wrong turns is up to you and how you follow the path. If you don't like it then don't believe it but if you are a Christian you know what I'm talking about. It is what you believe that makes you happy or unhappy, and being strong in my faith is what drives me to be the best.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Sphexi

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Sphexi
God helps those who help themselves. People who pray constantly for things never get them, only because prayer doesn't work that way. You pray for the wisdom to help you make the correct decision, you pray for the strength to help you do what you need to, you pray for forgiveness for those things you shouldn't have done.

You do not pray for money, for free stuff, for God to up and heal you with some miracle. Such things are petty and selfish, and not what God is about.

Oh my. This is turning into a doctrinal discussion.

*backs away slowly*

Not at all. I've never seen any other way to pray, it's just seemed wrong to ask some sort of almighty diety for a new car, or a set of tires, or an extra $1.50 an hour at work. Nobody would ever learn anything that way. But asking God to give you the wisdom to do your job better, thus leading to you getting a raise, makes a hell of a lot more sense.


Sucks that most people don't think that way, they simply want things and want them now, and when it doesn't happen they take that as fact that God doesn't exist.

*shrugs*

In the example you provided, there's absolutely no difference in asking for a raise and asking for the wisdom to get a raise, if that is your sole purpose in seeking this wisdom.

I feel that all prayer which trickles down to the material world is useless. Prayer is intended for you to speak to God about your life and to try to find ways to better serve and reflect him.. not to ask for anything.

 

[slick230]

Originally posted by: Lyfer
Wrong Forum.

It's OK as long as Nik is taking an active part in the thread. Otherwise, yeah.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Sphexi

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: Sphexi
God helps those who help themselves. People who pray constantly for things never get them, only because prayer doesn't work that way. You pray for the wisdom to help you make the correct decision, you pray for the strength to help you do what you need to, you pray for forgiveness for those things you shouldn't have done.

You do not pray for money, for free stuff, for God to up and heal you with some miracle. Such things are petty and selfish, and not what God is about.

Oh my. This is turning into a doctrinal discussion.

*backs away slowly*

Not at all. I've never seen any other way to pray, it's just seemed wrong to ask some sort of almighty diety for a new car, or a set of tires, or an extra $1.50 an hour at work. Nobody would ever learn anything that way. But asking God to give you the wisdom to do your job better, thus leading to you getting a raise, makes a hell of a lot more sense.


Sucks that most people don't think that way, they simply want things and want them now, and when it doesn't happen they take that as fact that God doesn't exist.

*shrugs*

In the example you provided, there's absolutely no difference in asking for a raise and asking for the wisdom to get a raise, if that is your sole purpose in seeking this wisdom.

I feel that all prayer which trickles down to the material world is useless. Prayer is intended for you to speak to God about your life and to try to find ways to better serve and reflect him.. not to ask for anything.

It's actually for both. Prayer is just a fancy word for conversation. Don't think that you can follow the teachings of Christ and not be allowed to ask for something that you want.

However, that gets in to a whole other discussion on what "you want" would be if you truely were following the teachings of Christ.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: slick230

Originally posted by: Lyfer
Wrong Forum.

It's OK as long as Nik is taking an active part in the thread. Otherwise, yeah.

How is this politics or news?

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Nik
It's actually for both. Prayer is just a fancy word for conversation. Don't think that you can follow the teachings of Christ and not be allowed to ask for something that you want.

However, that gets in to a whole other discussion on what "you want" would be if you truely were following the teachings of Christ.

Yes, what you would want would not be anything that a lot of Christians pray for. You would ask for a closer relationship to God and for the rest of the world to seek the same thing. And neither of these can be given to you, even by God.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Nik
It's actually for both. Prayer is just a fancy word for conversation. Don't think that you can follow the teachings of Christ and not be allowed to ask for something that you want.

However, that gets in to a whole other discussion on what "you want" would be if you truely were following the teachings of Christ.

Yes, what you would want would not be anything that a lot of Christians pray for. You would ask for a closer relationship to God and for the rest of the world to seek the same thing. And neither of these can be given to you, even by God.

Are you what many call a "baby christian"?

 

[Gunslinger08]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: joshsquall

Originally posted by: Nik
It's actually for both. Prayer is just a fancy word for conversation. Don't think that you can follow the teachings of Christ and not be allowed to ask for something that you want.

However, that gets in to a whole other discussion on what "you want" would be if you truely were following the teachings of Christ.

Yes, what you would want would not be anything that a lot of Christians pray for. You would ask for a closer relationship to God and for the rest of the world to seek the same thing. And neither of these can be given to you, even by God.

Are you what many call a "baby christian"?

Definition?