Here is a challenge: Need to network 2 buildings under difficult conditions.

[Freejack2]

My company is trying to set up a network for a customer. The network the company wants is just a simple 10mbps or faster ethernet set up. The problem comes in hooking up the 2 buildings and the connection has to be very reliable.

The only connectivity between the 2 buildings is the phone system and a fiber optic line that connects all the serial dumb terminals in the other building. The fiber optic line is probably not an option as it's used for the serial connections and is the property of the company that sold the dumb terminals to our customer.
I also doubt the phone lines are an option unless they can be loaded with a phone signal and an ethernet signal. (Can't be DSL or a T1, too slow a connection for the load) The buildings may share power somewhere besides at the pole but I'm not sure.

Wireless isn't an option because it's too insecure and any interruptions for more than a couple of seconds will mess up the applications.

Digging up the pavement or stringing a wire above ground are not an option either. The distance between the buildings is roughly 250 feet.

Is there any other possibilities that I may have missed? I'd really hate to tell the customer that we can't do this. The customer wants our system but doesn't want to string lines across the parking lots or dig up the pavement to do so.

 

[Snuffaluffaguss]

microwave or lasers?

 

[spidey07]

long reach ethernet on the copper, if its cat 5 then just use 100 Base-T

or

Use fiber if you can

Wireless as a last resort

 

[Freejack2]

Originally posted by: spidey07
long reach ethernet on the copper, if its cat 5 then just use 100 Base-T

or

Use fiber if you can

Wireless as a last resort

There might be a free set on the phone lines but that's only 4 flat wires, can that even reliably carry a 10mbps signal for 250 feet and is 4 wires enough?

Snuffaluffaguss, how much does laser or microwave cost. I don't think my company wants to shell out much more than a $1000 or so to network the buildings.

 

[martind1]

Originally posted by: spidey07
long reach ethernet on the copper, if its cat 5 then just use 100 Base-T

or

Use fiber if you can

Wireless as a last resort

You have to be extremely cautious when running cables between buildings. due to the differences in ground potential. Would have to check that out.

 

[buleyb]

Originally posted by: Snuffaluffaguss
microwave or lasers?

if not these, fiber


Agreed with Martind1, DO NOT RUN COPPER


good luck

 

[spidey07]

the copper might be cat3.

 

[Freejack2]

Originally posted by: spidey07
the copper might be cat3.

That would be nice if it is. I'm supposed to go up there later and take another look. If it's not cat 3 though can anything be done with it?

 

[buleyb]

the problem isn't the copper, the problem is the equipment on either end. A lot of phone equipment has the editional grounding needed to avoid problems. Problems occur when people use internal networking equipment to run between buildings

 

[Freejack2]

Originally posted by: buleyb
the problem isn't the copper, the problem is the equipment on either end. A lot of phone equipment has the editional grounding needed to avoid problems. Problems occur when people use internal networking equipment to run between buildings

I was hoping that there were unused pairs that weren't connected or could be disconnected. Have to see I guess.

 

[buleyb]

well that would be fine, but you still can't be running those into unprotected equipment, or you'll likely to fry your networking equipment

 

[martind1]

you are risking ruining all your uquip if you just haphazardly run this cable. better find an expert on this.

 

[cmetz]

Freejack2, get DSL modems and use them on your dry copper pair. You'll need an ATU-T and an ATU-R - there is a "head end" and a "customer end" device and you'll need one of each. VDSL would be the preferred technology. "Long reach Ethernet" is a flavor of VDSL - I don't know whether LRE gear has proper input protection for multi-building use, however. I would urge you to find someone who really knows what they're doing to handle the grounding and voltage protection for a copper link between buildings. But in your case it might be the solution approach that best meets your needs.

 

[buleyb]

yes, thats a solid solution, agreed...

"find someone who can physically help you"

 

[Garion]

If there's a fiber and phone cables between the two buildings, there's probably a conduit between them already. Follow the phone wires and fiber cable down through the building and try to find it. Also, it seems kind of odd they just ran one fiber cable. Look around, there might be a a few more fibers around somewhere.

Note that most cables are run through a conduit using "inner duct" - Typically a smaller duct inside of the conduit. If the person that installed the conduit was good, they a ran several inner ducts along with it with pull strings.

It's thought of as a bad idea to pull new cable through an inner duct that already has cable - Lots of potential for snagging, etc. I've seen it done when absolutely necessary, but I don't recommend it.

Buildings 250 feet apart will probably translate into at least 500 feet of cable length, by the time you run through the walls, etc. Too far for any standard technologies, without some kind of long range Ethernet or Ethernet boosters somewhere.

A $1,000 budget is never going to cut it. If you do run fiber, the cost of the run is going to be way more expensive, not to mention the termination (patch panels), the gigabit switch ports (or 100BaseT -> fiber media converters), etc.

You might be able to get away with wireless - Use Cisco wireless bridges with directional antennas and LEAP enabled. Assuming you have line of site and good antennas, it'd take a fairly major natural event (HEAVY fog, MAJOR rain, etc) to knock it out. And directional antennas with LEAP will alleve most of your security concerns. A bad option, but it might be your only one. You'd be looking at at least $2,000 for hardware and cabling, so it might not be within their budget.

If had to do this, I'd go out there, charge them for the time to investigate the solution and see if you can provide a solution that meets their uptime and security requirements within their budget. If so, great - Do it. If not, gracefully bow out. It's sometimes hard to tell a company that you can't do what they want for their price, and if you try and come up with a lower-quality compromse, you would probably be doing them a disservice by providing a product that doesn't do everything they want to do.

- G

 

[foshizzle]

correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't he just run some new fiber? Like Garion said, there's prolly some conduit going between the buildings. But, like the others said, you should some pros to do all.

 

[cmetz]

Garion hit this one on the head. If they have requirements that cannot be satisfied in the budget they're giving you, decline, and tell them why.

 

[gwuasg]

couldn't you use old school 10B2 coaxial for the long run just dig a trench its tough stuff? be cheap spec is around 590 ft for a then you might need two computers at each end with 2 nics to transfer from 10/100 to 10B2 cards and cable would be cheap.

 

[ScottMac]

I think thepoint is that to use Coax (10BASE-5), he'd have to pull coax. Admittedly much cheaper than fiber, but much more limited for growth. If he's got to pull something, he should pull fiber: it gets around the grounding issue, and you can get 8-16 strands of fiber, maybe more, in the same space as UTP .... and be ready for almost anything the future brings.

Maybe even a hybrid bundle, Multimode, single mode ... maybe some UTP for other phone or signalling apps.

I absolutely agree with the above poster(s) about walking away if you can't do it for budget. If you can't do it right, then you are on the hook for everything that goes wrong because you didn't.

Fiber is the best way to go.

Good Luck

Scott

 

[deadseasquirrel]

Check with some telecom companies in the area. I work @ MCI and we have good ethernet products for doing this... 10Mbps, 100Mbps, gigabit, and even SONET up to 2.5Gbps. Though I doubt we have fiber to your particular 2 buildings. So, depending where you are, check with the local phone company and see how much they'd charge for a 10Meg ethernet link to the other building.

Prepare for it to cost more than $1000 though.

 

[groovin]

snags are always a problem.... bigger problem if there are no pull strings!

we need to start training mice to carry wires in their mouths and run through conduits!

 

[Garion]

Originally posted by: groovin
snags are always a problem.... bigger problem if there are no pull strings!

we need to start training mice to carry wires in their mouths and run through conduits!

Snags are a pain, but there's ways around it.. An old cable installer trick is to wad up a plastic bag and tie a pull string to the end of it. Stick it in one end of the conduit. Go to the far end of the conduit and put a shop vac hose into it, seal around the end of the vacuum and the edge of the conduit and turn it on. You'd be AMAZED at how fast that string pulls through the conduit and the suction can usually get it past any snags, unless it's major.

One note - You don't need a whole garbage bag for a 1" inner duct conduit. That's just more likely to get snagged. Be reasonable about it. Start as small as you can and work up if that doesn't go.

- G

 

[cmetz]

Garion... that is a cool trick.

 

[vortix]

Originally posted by: Snuffaluffaguss
microwave or lasers?

Yep this would be the way I would go if running new wire is not an option. We use some sort of laser to beam data between two buildings where I work. In our case, the buildings are around 750 feet away, and it works great. Very fast, and no problems with grounding issues.

 

[Freejack2]

I stopped up there today and was able to get more detail. The good news is if they can get ethernet cables through the conduit the run is less than 300' before we can put a repeater on it. The total run is probably less than the max of 328' hub to hub so a repeater may not even be needed. They have one if we need it though.
I looked up the Cisco wireless stuff, looks nice but $5000 is insane!
I'm hoping they can pull the stuff through the conduits.