I believe I understated where you are coming from in a way that is different than the way most others here respond to you, namely not having an inner need to call you an evil racist because I feel threatened somehow by what you have to say. I think a person can think in a racists manner without actually experiencing a feeling of hatred toward people of color over the color of their skin. Racism is based on stereotyping regarding race and skin color or even known genetic or actual historic national origin.
The fact is that the presence of historical racism in a society in not just passed from generation to the next, so are the effects of historical racism on those who are forced to deal over and over in their lives with it from the bigots around them. We create what we fear and Southern Whites, with their history of slavery and their emotional needs to defend it, create an identical response that gets reflected back at the haters who dealt it out first. If we tell people they are inferior by beating into them that it's the color of their skin that makes them that way, they will respond by punishing you with exactly the moral behavior you expect from inferior people. They will prove you right and pay you in kind.
The result is that Black people will manifest stereotypical behavior that then gets pointed to as proof of inferiority and that stereotype becomes something of a reality. Now you turn around claiming to have all the proof you need absent the awareness that it proof that racism itself created.
White people need to stop the stupid pretense that their racism did not create the problem in the first place and Black people need to root out any internalized feelings of inferiority that was beaten into them by constant claims of their inferiority. We become what we were told we are. It is the insanity of internalized feelings of inferiority that creates the need to manufacture an 'inferior other' based on some identifiable difference and the counter response to it that it is actually the bigots that are the ones who are truly worthless. It is bigotry that makes both manifest as true at a superficial level. Go deeper and we are all the same but on the surface sleep-walkiing inferior feeling machines terrified of self awareness that is our true inner state.
The price of truth and wisdom is the realization of the hopelessness of any cure to be had from taking revenge for having been made to suffer being made to feel worthless as a child.
lol - arguing for apartheid.
You are obsessed with relentless race based trolling.
Maybe Mr. T can bridge the gap!
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
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Meghan54
Lifer
- Oct 18, 2009
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Do never forget religion was used as the authority for having slavery as an institution. Numerous portions of the Bible talk about how to keep/treat slaves, how long it can last in differing instances, etc.,etc
And since the Bible is God’s word, who are we to deny God and not enslave others. God says it’s just peachy, after all.
If you have ever tried to explain anything to a conservative you will have noticed they can only follow you to the limits of their understanding and then get completely lost. Imagine God telling people far more primitive in their understanding of the nature of reality what to do with slavery. But if you implant the notion that slaves should be treated with human dignity and it takes, that will lead inevitably to freeing the slaves. No person who out of real self love would not want to be a slave himself will also not want to have any. I think God knew what He was doing but people have not caught up to Him yet.
ch33zw1z
Lifer
- Nov 4, 2004
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I know. That’s why I wanted to expand on the irony behind Meghan54’s post by seeming to taking it literally.
I wanted to tell him that even a dumb human like me could see that the way he was pretending to read the Bible could be mistaken. I have lots of experience with people not understanding what I am saying and often because they are looking to do just that.
We even fought a Civil War that some say was to end slavery but others still do not. I even heard a few months back some Republican talking about all the wonderful skills Black slaves got to pick up and benefit from as a result of enslavement.
Trust me. Whatever a God might actually tell people, if any such being exists, a few generations later those tellings will have morphed into something completely different.
ch33zw1z
Lifer
- Nov 4, 2004
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You’re assuming god is speaking to people. I was pointing out the statement at the end where you were pretending to know the mind of god.
As a non believer, I’m allowed to pretend all day long.
“Trust me” - said every grifter ever
Couldn't it be prideful to assume you know the mind Moonbeam? I was assuming that people who take the Bible as the final word of moral authority because it supposedly is what God said in speech to someone with wondrous ears, that in addition to assuming it was actually the voice of God they also assume they understood what was the real intent. All I said was that in my experience with people what I say and what is heard don't always match. Also, a lot of what I say is not what I think. For one think truth can't be put into words. This is sometimes analogized as 'the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon'.
Additionally, I would not call you a non believer. You say you do not believe in God but what you are really saying is that you do not believe in the God you have a conceptualization of in using the word God that you think others take for real, and one that resides in your head. So you are a believer of a kind. You do not believe in something you have also imagined just as you claim of people of faith. You also, therefore, are a person of faith.. And too this state of non-belief you have attached great importance. it is the non believers who are on the good team. Theirs is the truth.
So I say the God you don't believe in does not exist. Just imagine infinite number of things you have never put a name to that do not exist.
It is said that only the Camel knows the 99th name of God. Where did a notion like that come from I wonder. Could it be that if there is a God it is beyond human conceptualization, that no name can be put to it? Have you been to the desert on a horse with no name?
ch33zw1z
Lifer
- Nov 4, 2004
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Under examination is whether it is prideful to assume one has comprehended the expressed intention and intent of a mind other than one's own, not whether it is the mind of a mortal or a god. Seems you didn't even comprehend that.
ch33zw1z
Lifer
- Nov 4, 2004
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lol, it’s not prideful to guess what other people are thinking. We’re not all knowing all seeing beings. The fact I have to spell this out for you is pretty odd though.
You said: “I think God knew what He was doing but people have not caught up to Him yet.”
That’s cute, knowing what God thinks
MrSquished
Lifer
- Jan 14, 2013
- 26,067
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I can literally feel how right this list is.
Literally just thinking about having to live in the deep south and Midwest stresses me the fuck out.
Literally just thinking about having to live in the deep south and Midwest stresses me the fuck out.
It's not your guessing that's arrogant. It's the fact that once made you treat them other than that. You associate what you guess with a negative reaction to the person you are guessing about as if your guess was the truth. For example: I said, "I think God knew what He was doing but people have not caught up to Him yet.", from which you conclude I am cute knowing what God thinks. But that was something I said 'I thought' but after having also said this:lol, it’s not prideful to guess what other people are thinking. We’re not all knowing all seeing beings. The fact I have to spell this out for you is pretty odd though.
You said: “I think God knew what He was doing but people have not caught up to Him yet.”
That’s cute, knowing what God thinks
"If you have ever tried to explain anything to a conservative you will have noticed they can only follow you to the limits of their understanding and then get completely lost. Imagine God telling people far more primitive in their understanding of the nature of reality what to do with slavery. But if you implant the notion that slaves should be treated with human dignity and it takes, that will lead inevitably to freeing the slaves. No person who out of real self love would not want to be a slave himself will also not want to have any."
What I expressed there was that because I have personal experience with the difficulties of telling people anything they are not evolved enough to comprehend, I asked the reader to imagine how much more difficult that would be for a highly advanced being to tell people more primitive than Republicans much of anything. I then suggested how a God might get around this, giving people advise they could comprehend and follow that would in time change them internally. I wasn't saying what God thinks but what I pictured could have been going down asking the reader to try it on for size. You took the opportunity to imply my arrogance.
I don't mind being called arrogant or being seen that way. And I am aware that the only way I would wind up talking about a subject like this, that people have varying degrees to which they may grasp moral arguments is because I have noticed that some people don't seem to get what is obvious to me. That does not mean that I think know everything. Actually what it does is tell me is there are people out there who see beyond what I do. I don't see how that wouldn't be a statistical inevitability.
Knowing what I know about self hate and the tremendous envy it produces, I have grown accustom to seeing that envy in me and also of me from others. People fear to be seen as morally inferior and can't take being faced with the reality of that when it is actually facially real. These are all things you have to face in yourself if you want to find truth. Fear is what keeps us from becoming more aware.
My wild ass guess is that there is a big political element involved. I'd bet five bucks that the outcome of that poll would be reversed if the president was a repbublician. If Trump was president it's an absolute certainty that the blue state people would be the stressed ones.
ch33zw1z
Lifer
- Nov 4, 2004
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This is interesting. You tried to make my point about my feeling about how hard it would be to tell a slave holding culture that slavery is immoral and that a more effective approach might be to tell them to treat them with human dignity as people because if they did so eventually they would inevitably be unable to stomach slavery itself. I did so because I am constantly looking for ways to get around the walls people hide behind and because that is what did happened Black Christians and decent White Christians ended it here and continue to argue for equality on the basis that God loves us all equally. Do you have to be God to feel that. Do you have to be arrogant to believe that if there were supernatural agency acting in the universe there is life in it because of love.
You made the claim that I know the mind of God. Any notion I might have about God does not rest on any religious belief I hold. It rests on the certainty I have that slavery is wrong. About that I am more arrogantly sure than you may possibly be able to believe.
What is meant by the idea we were created in Gods image. If true then, if you know you do you not know Him. And what changes if it is the other way around?
ch33zw1z
Lifer
- Nov 4, 2004
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I made the claim that it's prideful to think you know the mind of God, not that you actually know it. For you to actually know it, that would mean there is a God. But since that can't be proven, a moot point.
The rest of your posts appear to be you arguing your own viewpoints, with yourself, after strawmanning my point
I have no problem with your point. It's not just prideful to think you know the mind of God, it's dangerous and absurd. The issue for me was that you said it after quoting my post thereby directing it at me. And since your point had no application to what I said you introduced the straw man as I see it. I said I think I know people well enough to know that, whatever people may imagine a god may have said way back when, that any such real or imagined voice would not be understood and that owing to the fact that anybody with a similar feeling about the perceptive capacity of people back then and even now, that for any sensible information to penetrate the assumptions we make would require skill and subtlety and that even then there's no guarantee.
As a person interested in such things, what I see as a huge obstacle to the perception of truth is the assumption that one already know it. You and I may say that there exists no God for anybody to know what that God thinks, or that if there were that no person would know it's thoughts, but maybe it's arrogant to think that. Do you know everything that can be known to know so for sure? And if you did would you not yourself disprove your own case? Isn't God supposed to be all knowing. Do we even know what knowing is.
Who knows? The nose knows so speak, beak. Care to prognosticate? Play on word origins intended.
ch33zw1z
Lifer
- Nov 4, 2004
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