Question Help with new build for my son

[rh71]

I have twin 11yo boys who are gamers (Fortnite/Warzone) and back in late 2018 I built one of them a mid-range PC while the other stayed on the XB1. It's now time for the other to get on PC and of course I can't make it too much better than the 2018 machine or jealousy would ensue. Just need a more modern version of:

CASE: Thermaltake Versa H17 Micro ATX
RAM: GSkill 8GB DDR4 2133
CPU: i3-8100 Quad-Core 3.6GHz
GPU: MSI Radeon RX 580
MOBO: AsRock B360M Pro4

Budget is $400-$500 (approx cost of above, although you'd guess that that performance would be cheaper now?) and I still have to get an SSD, PSU, monitor(s), KB/mouse on top of that.

So my request is if you can give me leads as to what today's equivalent in terms of performance would be, even better if cheaper. I've been on AT for a long time but I was never one to keep up with hardware although I can put it all together. If there are pre-builts that would meet my needs, I'm ok with that too. Thanks.

 

[VirtualLarry]

although you'd guess that that performance would be cheaper now?

Both Yes (Moore's Law, and all that, tech getting cheaper) and No (Pandemic, interfering with supply chains world-wide, shortages of parts because of that and USA stimulus checks of $1200, that a lot of people that are "Sheltering at Home", went out and bought PC parts to build a gaming PC.)

Power supplies and AM4 motherboards (B450 / X370 boards for $500, 650W Gold PSUs from 1st-tier makers for $150, if you can find them) are particularly expensive. RAM and SSDs were creeping upward slowly, but seem to be on a slight decline in price as of now. CPUs and HDDs are mostly MSRP. Some deals to be had on AM4 Zen2 CPUs, especially at Microcenter, as AMD is going to roll out Zen3 soon. (B450 and X470 NOT COMPATIBLE with upcoming Zen3 CPUs. Must buy B550 (not avail. yet), or X570 (pricey).

So, it's kind of a wash.

Also, AMD has newly introduced, but they don't yet seem to quite be available yet at Newegg or Amazon for MSRP, is the Zen2-based 4C/8T CPUs, the 3100 and 3300X. The 3300X can beat a 7700K in gaming, according to benchmarks! All for $120 or $130 MSRP.

If you want a fairly inexpensive 4C/8T CPU particularly for gaming, I would wait to build until the 3300X is available, and snag that.

Alternatively, the Ryzen R5 3600 is now @ Newegg for $164.99, I believe, if you use their e-mail flyer promo code. Which is a pretty decent deal too. But then, you might be "forced" to upgrade the other son's rig to a 3600 too...

At the low/mid-range end, an RX 580 is still pretty decent, for the money, although they are getting more scarce. RX 5500 XT (4GB and 8GB) are replacing them, and in some very modern games, outperforming them by a good margin, for similar money.

I am doing some mining on the side, so power-consumption is a very important issue for me, so I've actually been acquiring some GTX 1650 (some refurb, some new LP for some SFFs I'm putting together), and some GTX 1660 ti (refurbs). Good bang-for-buck, if you can snag (factory) refurbs @ Newegg for a decent savings. (Makes reaching the break-even point easier.)

 

[rh71]

^ Thx for the leads, unfortunate about pricing right now. Have another 2 months before their birthday.

I just had another thought. My own PC is many years old and going by benchmarks, it's pretty similar to the one I built for my son... i5-7600 and GTX 1060 GPU. Maybe I'll just give him this one and go new myself haha.

 

[rh71]

Going Micro ATX again for this one (and leaning toward Intel)... can anyone spot the difference between these 2 mobos? I've got 2 other PCs that have Asrock and they've been reliable for me, but isn't Gigabyte more established / reputable with support/updates?

Mobo: Gigabyte B365M vs. Asrock B365M (+ has M.2 wifi, I'll need to connect via wifi for sure)

Matching with the i3-9100F as I'm trying to keep costs down. (I will switch to the 3300x if I do decide to spend more, but then I'm seeing i3-10100 is also comparable).
Also chose the 970 Evo 500GB SSD - any issues with the M2 slot compatibility of either mobo? (first time with M2).
GPU: GTX 1650S - EVGA vs. Gigabyte?

 

[VirtualLarry]

but then I'm seeing i3-10100 is also comparable).

Maybe, but currently. that chip would require a Z490 board to go with.

 

[rh71]

Still debating the i3-9100F (4 cores, $75) vs i5-9400F (6 cores, $166) as this total build has crept up to the $700 range. So 2 questions:

1) all the youtube gaming fps benchmarks between these processors uses a high-end video card like the GTX 2060. Games range from 50 fps to 150 fps, but for a given game, these 2 are very similar - like 10 fps apart. Would this still be the case if they had used a mid-range GPU like an RX 590? Would they still only be about 10 fps apart?

2) future-proof... if at some point I want to swap in a high-end video card later, does it give me any advantage to have the i5-9400F instead of the i3-9100F?

 

[VirtualLarry]

1) all the youtube gaming fps benchmarks between these processors uses a high-end video card like the GTX 2060.

RTX 2060 is mid-range, believe it or not.

Games range from 50 fps to 150 fps, but for a given game, these 2 are very similar - like 10 fps apart. Would this still be the case if they had used a mid-range GPU like an RX 590? Would they still only be about 10 fps apart?

It kind of depends, on whether you are using CPU-bound, versus GPU-bound, settings.

Cranking the GPU settings down, and/or the rendering resolution, puts more of a burden on the CPU, and can provide the opportunity for faster CPUs to shine. Cranking UP the GPU settings, tends to equalize CPUs, assuming that they are each "fast enough" for the game in general.

Note also, that not all games are heavily multi-threaded yet. BF V is often mentioned, especially MP combat, as a game that does not run well on only 4C these days.

2) future-proof... if at some point I want to swap in a high-end video card later, does it give me any advantage to have the i5-9400F instead of the i3-9100F?

I would say so. Also, future games (BF V, Assassin's Creed, others, possibly CyberPunk 2077) will take advantage of more than 4C. Also, upcoming consoles are going to have 8 Zen cores (Zen2?), as well as a beefy APU-style GPU, so PC ports of upcoming console titles, would seem (at this juncture, perhaps a bit presumptive as they haven't been released yet) to require a Zen2 CPU with 8C or better. (Ryzen R7 3700X at minimum for AM4.)

HIgher video cards are needed for more detail settings (*"Ultra"), as well as higher rendering resolutions (1440P or 4K UHD). If their monitor is only 1080P, then above a certain level (RTX 2060), there may be "diminishing returns", unless they are a high refresh-rate gamer (144Hz or faster, minimum), in which case they would want a 10th-gen i9 CPU (10900K), and probably liquid cooling, and a substantial OC, along with really fast DDR4 (like 4000+).

 

[VirtualLarry]

Honestly, if you're even contemplating a 6C CPU, you would be wise to wait a few weeks (?), for the 3600XT (among other AM4 "XT" CPUs) to be released. It will have 4.7Ghz single-core boost, as well as a healthy possibly 4.2Ghz all-core clock (I think? Maybe only 4Ghz like my regular 3600).

Anyways, in some games, the extra SMT threads (6C/12T, remember, for the 3600, 3600X, 3600XT), allow for much better "minimums" during gameplay, even as compared to an i5-9400F (which is otherwise OK for a gaming PC).

Edit: And if you're looking to "Future-Proof" AT ALL, then go with an AM4 platform, at least 6C/12T, to prepare for the console ports from the PS5 and whatever the new XB is called. If not a 3900XT. (You can also always go with a 3300X, those pack a punch with only 4C/8T, when OCed, and drop in a 3900XT a year from now, or a Zen3-arch CPU.)

 

[VirtualLarry]

BTW, YGPM on a pair of SFF gaming PCs that I have available, maybe one of those would work for you.

Edit: Nevermind, get one of these Skylake SFF rigs with i5-6500, 8GB DDR4, and drop in a GDDR6 GTX 1650 LP card, and go to town:

Some *REFURB* SFF i5-6500 (Skylake quad-core) desktop units, one for $250 with 1TB HDD, one for $280 with 256GB SSD+HDD @ Newegg (marketplace)

(Please note that neither one of these units is sold by Newegg themselves, they are sold by marketplace sellers.) Dell Optiplex 5040 SFF i5-6500 3.2GHz 8GB RAM 1TB HDD Windows 10 Home $259.50...

forums.anandtech.com

 

[rh71]

I was doing a userbenchmark compare between my i5-7600k and the i3-9100f I'm looking at (source). This is the statement under the i3-9100f I'm wondering about:

Gamers should pair the 9100F with a Z390 motherboard and unlock higher XMP RAM speeds. This will deliver up to a 15% fps boost which is well worth

Since I'm doing a micro-ATX build, I'm wondering if the B365 mobo ($70 cheaper) offers the same ability to enable " higher XMP RAM speeds". Not sure what that is but it looks like a BIOS setting. I bought 2x8GB DDR4-3200 Aegis RAM if that matters.

 

[VirtualLarry]

No, none of the lower-end B-series 300 boards nor H-series 300 boards will allow for memory overclocking / XMP settings. You MUST pay extra to Intel for a Z-series 300 board for that privilege.

 

[rh71]

If for instance a RAM stick lists as Timing 15-15-15-35 ... and BIOS is already showing that, can you go beyond that for OCing?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, most people don't consider timing tweaks on RAM to be overclocking, since you're not actually changing any clock speeds.

I assume that as long as the clock speed is stock, that you can tweak the DRAM timings to your heart's desire. Whether the RAM will work at reduced timings is another thing entirely.

 

[VirtualLarry]

What all do you already have purchased? Is it too late to go AMD? I might have an offer for you.

Edit: Also, how do you feel about water-cooling? Ever done it? Considered an AIO LC kit? That might be part of the offer too.

 

[rh71]

Still need the CPU / mobo combo. I was going to do the i5-9400f because of the 6 cores but then that is $166 right now... which puts it into some good AMD territory. The easiest thing to do would be to do an i3-9100f for $75 and call it a day. This is such a PITA between value and future-proofing even a little bit. At this point I'm waiting for the 1650S to arrive to put it in with the existing i3-8100 to see what difference it makes for FPS... then I'll decide on the CPU.

Want to stay away from water-cooling... just not willing to invest effort into that. Does AMD run hotter in general?

So far:
CPU - ?
Mobo - ?
GPU - GTX 1650S
RAM - 2x8GB Aegis DDR4-PC3200
SSD - 970 Evo 500GB

 

[VirtualLarry]

Still need the CPU / mobo combo. I was going to do the i5-9400f because of the 6 cores but then that is $166 right now... which puts it into some good AMD territory. The easiest thing to do would be to do an i3-9100f for $75 and call it a day. This is such a PITA.

Well, if you go i3-9100F, you would be locked into 4 cores only, which, given the upcoming consoles are going to have 8 real Zen (2?) cores in them, with SMT, is probably not wise, if you expect to play future PC ports of console games. (If you just want to play Fortnite and Minecraft, 4C is probably OK.)

I have some MSI PRO-VDH MAX mATX AM4 boards, and some 16GB kits of RAM (also some 16GB single sticks). If interested, PM me.

 

[rh71]

Any better deal than this for a 27"+ gaming monitor with fast response/refresh rate? Want to keep it under $250.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07SC5NH91/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

 

[VirtualLarry]

Is there some reason that you're looking at a high-refresh-rate monitor? Unless you go with the unlocked, and overclocked, high-end Intel, you're not going to see any advantage to high-refresh-rate monitors on modern AAA games.

Maybe e-sports would give you HRR gaming. But not AAA titles, not without a rig WAAAAY more beefy than you are suggesting.

And not likely on a i3-9100F. Maybe a 9400F in e-sports.

 

[rh71]

Understood - but only because that's all the kids talk about are the specs. Our budget for each is $250 anyway so I am just trying to get them the best available for the price. If it's $200, with slightly worse specs, I'm all for it too. I don't think I can get away with a 60Hz 8ms monitor - that's what he has now... some no-name over 10 years old.

Should response time be the lone factor then?

Also looking at this one but for a $10 difference... the other specs are better.
https://www.amazon.com/LG-27MP59G-P...G+27MP59G&qid=1592317377&s=electronics&sr=1-2

And super affordable: https://www.amazon.com/Acer-CB272-b.../B07WMTLW2R/ref=psdc_1292115011_t1_B082BYRR3L

 

[VirtualLarry]

I mean, I'm not strictly AGAINST getting a 144Hz monitor, because monitors last a long time, generally, and they'll probably "grow into it" with system upgrades. I just wanted to point out that if you wanted to get the maximum usage out of it (144Hz MINIMUM frame-rates in games), you're not going to do that with a i3-9100F. You might get something over 60FPS though, maybe 80-100Hz, in some really modern games, and in e-sports (CS:GO, I'm looking at you, possibly Overwatch, etc.)., then you might hit 144FPS.

Edit: I'm not really a "competitive gamer" anymore (I was in my 20s, but now I'm in my late 40s), and back then, high-refresh monitors weren't really a thing, we all just used CRTs, which are amazingly low-latency, of course. So I'm not the best guy to be getting advice from on monitors, so take everything I say about monitors with a pretty big grain of salt, I guess.

I'm currently using some Avera 40" 4K UHD TVs as monitors. I bought them "blind" 3 years ago on BF @ Newegg for ~$200 ea., and I kind of lucked out. They have four HDMI 2.0 inputs, and support 4:4:4 chroma sub-sampling (if your card supports it), and is overall very pleasing for desktop work, once you go into the service menu, and turn sharpness down to 0, and turn down the color saturation.

But again, they're only 60Hz panels.

I guess my preference, is higher resolution, over higher refresh-rates. So I would probably go with a 75Hz FreeSync 2 1440P (possibly IPS) display.

 

[VirtualLarry]

There was a Linus TechTips YouTube video "cheapest 144Hz monitors on Amazon". I don't have a link handy, but you might search for that.

 

[pauldun170]

In regards to the case. I recently redid our HTPC and swapped out the case. I needed something with a more room for a large GPU.
I took a risk and picked up a cheapo Cougar MG120 from newegg
For a cheapo $40 case it actually pretty decent.
While the materials are "price appropriate" it has some nice touches.

It also has the added bonus of a bit more room for CPU cooler than the Thermaltake.

 

[VirtualLarry]

10th-gen 6-core Intel combo with ASRock ATX mobo with 2.5Gbit/sec "Dragon LAN" (RealTek), for $301.99. Not a bad price.

Are you a human?

www.newegg.com

 

[rh71]

In regards to the case. I recently redid our HTPC and swapped out the case. I needed something with a more room for a large GPU.
I took a risk and picked up a cheapo Cougar MG120 from newegg
For a cheapo $40 case it actually pretty decent.
While the materials are "price appropriate" it has some nice touches.

It also has the added bonus of a bit more room for CPU cooler than the Thermaltake.

That Cougar was actually an option that I presented to my kid, vs. this (was $54 sale). So he took the latter. The Thermaltake is $10 more than when we bought it last time so for $45+, I figure I'll try others.

 

[VirtualLarry]

That DarkFlash DL21 is nice, but they have a new variant, the "Mesh" version, with a Mesh front. I would personally opt for the Mesh version, even if it isn't/wasn't on sale, for better cooling.