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[dderidex]

Originally posted by: BigJelly

Originally posted by: dderidex

Originally posted by: BigJelly

Originally posted by: dderidex

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Yup, Germany got the ole screw job at the end, despite ending the war with a cease fire instead of surrender.

The whole first world war is something of a tragedy. The UK just could NOT accept that ANY other power should be allowed to build a navy to rival them, and that arrogance caused such a chain reaction of events...

I mean, the Germans would *never* have invaded England - the Kaiser was the nephew of the King, for cryin out loud! He was enamored of England and English history - that's half the reason he kept BUILDING the navy! (Although, clearly, Tirpitz's goals with it where probably different)

France? Oh, yeah. Russian? Yup. England? Not a chance - all the way up until the day England declared war on Germany, there was still the hope in Germany that the UK would side with them, or at least stay neutral as a sign of solidarity.

The whole thing is rather horribly tragic.

Basic chain of events:
Arch Duke shot
Austra-Hungary delivered ulitmatum to Serbia with a 48-hour time limit
Demands are not meet (these demands are insain)
AH declares war on Serbia
Russia backs Serbia
Russia declares war on AH
Germany backs AH and declares war on Russia/Serbia
France mobilizes
Germany demands France stops mobilizing
France doesnt stop
Germany declares war on France
Germany carries out Schlieffen plan--invasion of France (same basic plan as WWII--but better mobilization in WWII so more effective)
Schlieffen plan involves going thorugh neutral Belgium
UK joined because Germany went through neutral Belgium which had an alliance with UK.
So now you have AH and Germany vs Russia, France, UK (main players)

The tragedy really is the involvement of the UK. The war would have been over by about 1916 with no UK--with a german victory. But no America as we see it today. So hey it worked to our benifit

Howso? The US and Germany were on more-or-less friendly terms until the war started.

Certainly, against a UK-German alliance (that would surely have arisen out of a German WW1 victory), the US would be in an....interesting position. But given how much Germany hated Russia, and how much the UK generally distrusted Russia, I doubt their first target would be the US, or if they would consider hostilities towards us at all.

WWI transformed US from a 2.5 world power to a 1.5 world power. Kicked our industry in the butt and by WWII we were a world power comparable to germany.

With out wwi US would be as powerful as italy. Then no wwii so US not a super power

Yeah, I could agree with that. Your post seemed to imply there would BE no US today at all, which is what I disagreed with. Obviously, read too much into it.

As to "US not a super power"....well, seriously now, what's wrong with that? The situation would have ended up with a democratic Germany as THE super-power today, with the US as the third or fourth. Not exactly a bad place to be. It'd be different, sure, but is that difference really worth WW2 happening?

 

[BigJelly]

Originally posted by: dderidex

Originally posted by: BigJelly

Originally posted by: dderidex

Originally posted by: BigJelly

Originally posted by: dderidex

Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
Yup, Germany got the ole screw job at the end, despite ending the war with a cease fire instead of surrender.

The whole first world war is something of a tragedy. The UK just could NOT accept that ANY other power should be allowed to build a navy to rival them, and that arrogance caused such a chain reaction of events...

I mean, the Germans would *never* have invaded England - the Kaiser was the nephew of the King, for cryin out loud! He was enamored of England and English history - that's half the reason he kept BUILDING the navy! (Although, clearly, Tirpitz's goals with it where probably different)

France? Oh, yeah. Russian? Yup. England? Not a chance - all the way up until the day England declared war on Germany, there was still the hope in Germany that the UK would side with them, or at least stay neutral as a sign of solidarity.

The whole thing is rather horribly tragic.

Basic chain of events:
Arch Duke shot
Austra-Hungary delivered ulitmatum to Serbia with a 48-hour time limit
Demands are not meet (these demands are insain)
AH declares war on Serbia
Russia backs Serbia
Russia declares war on AH
Germany backs AH and declares war on Russia/Serbia
France mobilizes
Germany demands France stops mobilizing
France doesnt stop
Germany declares war on France
Germany carries out Schlieffen plan--invasion of France (same basic plan as WWII--but better mobilization in WWII so more effective)
Schlieffen plan involves going thorugh neutral Belgium
UK joined because Germany went through neutral Belgium which had an alliance with UK.
So now you have AH and Germany vs Russia, France, UK (main players)

The tragedy really is the involvement of the UK. The war would have been over by about 1916 with no UK--with a german victory. But no America as we see it today. So hey it worked to our benifit

Howso? The US and Germany were on more-or-less friendly terms until the war started.

Certainly, against a UK-German alliance (that would surely have arisen out of a German WW1 victory), the US would be in an....interesting position. But given how much Germany hated Russia, and how much the UK generally distrusted Russia, I doubt their first target would be the US, or if they would consider hostilities towards us at all.

WWI transformed US from a 2.5 world power to a 1.5 world power. Kicked our industry in the butt and by WWII we were a world power comparable to germany.

With out wwi US would be as powerful as italy. Then no wwii so US not a super power

Yeah, I could agree with that. Your post seemed to imply there would BE no US today at all, which is what I disagreed with. Obviously, read too much into it.

As to "US not a super power"....well, seriously now, what's wrong with that? The situation would have ended up with a democratic Germany as THE super-power today, with the US as the third or fourth. Not exactly a bad place to be. It'd be different, sure, but is that difference really worth WW2 happening?

Dude US military invented the internet--NO ATOT if US didnt become a super power. Yes 100 million needed to die in WWI and WWII for that!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dderidex]

Originally posted by: BigJelly
got me there but you still dont know why UK joined WWI it was because of German army going through neutral Belgium that had an allience with UK. Your logic would have had UK back germany to weaken france's navy. But UK also wanted a balence of power in europe--and never truely felt threatened in the seas--the sub warefare was not forseen by the brits.

Yes, the reason the UK technically went to war with Germany was because of Belgium. In fact, if the Schliffen plan had simple been modified to avoid Belgium, the UK would likely STILL have stayed out of the war. There was no love lost between the UK and France, forget Russia (who the UK hated as much as Germany did).

As to the 'balance of power' - no, that was never England's concern. England wanted to be ruler of the seas and completely isolated from Europe by her navy. PERIOD. She didn't care WHAT happened to Europe as long as her navy kept her 'immune' to events on the continent.

And that's why she DID feel threatened "on the seas" - the German High Seas Fleet TERRIFIED England. It was solely responsible for England's crash Dreadnough-building program, and the recall of 90% of her navy from foreign bases.

In fact, as I commented in passing above, by 1915 during the Scarborough raid, the UK 'dreadnought gap' over Germany was only half a dozen ships - which, during the Scarborough raid - had chased Hipper's battlecruisers right into what SHOULD have been a trap by the entire High Seas Fleet. In one afternoon, the 'dreadnought gap' would have been wiped out, and the High Seas Fleet would be numerically identical to the UK fleet.

On top of that, throughout the war, the German ships proved to be SUBSTANTIALLY better built than the UK ships, with vastly improved gunnery (the UK was very late adapting optic rangefinders to its ships and implementing unified fire-control based gunnery). An even match of the fleet sizes....would have been very, very bad for England. And that's what England feared more than anything else and why she was willing to go to war with Germany over a 'scrap of paper' treaty with Belgium.

Originally posted by: BigJelly
Dude US military invented the internet--NO ATOT if US didnt become a super power. Yes 100 million needed to die in WWI and WWII for that!!!!!!!!!!!!

So it would've been invented by the German military.

Do you think anyone could stand against the force of history that brought about the creation of ATOT? Oh, no. ATOT would FIND a way to exist!

 

[NakaNaka]

Originally posted by: Jassi
NakaNaka - YGPM

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