Anyone have a source for unbiased, factual information the penalties imposed on Germany after WWI? I am trying to figure out how it affected the German psyche and the rise of Nazism. I didnt post in P&N due to some holocaust deniers promoting BS as history.
Help with historical information
- Thread starter Jassi
- Start date
Sweet thanks. Its not homework exactly, someone mentioned it in class, I just wanted to get some facts.
OREOSpeedwagon
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- May 30, 2001
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we just studied this in U.S. history. WWI was the most interesting subject so far this year but in a few weeks we get to WWII 
What do you mean Nazi defenders? You can't deny that the Nazi regime helped Germany completely turn around it's economy and restore strength to the country.
OREOSpeedwagon
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good point, but the treaty of versailles, the way i understand it, was basically meant to cripple Germany to the point where it could just barely survive.
nick1985
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The main terms of the Versailles Treaty were:
(1) the surrender of all German colonies as League of Nations mandates;
(2) the return of Alsace-Lorraine to France;
(3) cession of Eupen-Malmedy to Belgium, Memel to Lithuania, the Hultschin district to Czechoslovakia,
(4) Poznania, parts of East Prussia and Upper Silesia to Poland;
(5) Danzig to become a free city;
(6) plebiscites to be held in northern Schleswig to settle the Danish-German frontier;
(7) occupation and special status for the Saar under French control; (8) demilitarization and a fifteen-year occupation of the Rhineland;
(9) German reparations of £6,600 million;
(10) a ban on the union of Germany and Austria;
(11) an acceptance of Germany's guilt in causing the war;
(11) provision for the trial of the former Kaiser and other war leaders;
(12) limitation of Germany's army to 100,000 men with no conscription, no tanks, no heavy artillery, no poison-gas supplies, no aircraft and no airships;
(13) the limitation of the German Navy to vessels under 100,000 tons, with no submarines;
(1) the surrender of all German colonies as League of Nations mandates;
(2) the return of Alsace-Lorraine to France;
(3) cession of Eupen-Malmedy to Belgium, Memel to Lithuania, the Hultschin district to Czechoslovakia,
(4) Poznania, parts of East Prussia and Upper Silesia to Poland;
(5) Danzig to become a free city;
(6) plebiscites to be held in northern Schleswig to settle the Danish-German frontier;
(7) occupation and special status for the Saar under French control; (8) demilitarization and a fifteen-year occupation of the Rhineland;
(9) German reparations of £6,600 million;
(10) a ban on the union of Germany and Austria;
(11) an acceptance of Germany's guilt in causing the war;
(11) provision for the trial of the former Kaiser and other war leaders;
(12) limitation of Germany's army to 100,000 men with no conscription, no tanks, no heavy artillery, no poison-gas supplies, no aircraft and no airships;
(13) the limitation of the German Navy to vessels under 100,000 tons, with no submarines;
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
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Which pretty much CAUSED the Second World War.
There were no Nazis in Germany in WW1. It was only the rather humiliating Treaty of Versailles that led to such hatred.
One wonders what would have happened if only a few battles had gone differently. If Spee had pushed the attack at the Falklands to sink the battlecruisers before they left harbor, and had been able to rejoin the High Seas Fleet. If Ingenohl had not recalled the the High Seas Fleet before the return of the Scarborough raiders (could have wiped out Beaty's battlecruiser squadron in one afternoon and Jutland would have gone VERY differently). Germany fighting WW1 to a more advantaged stalemate would have meant no Versailles and no WW2.
Read the Holocaust video thread in P&N to understand why that is in the title.
As for the point of this research, I am doing it for my own knowledge (Learned all this in HS history classes in Canada but I forgot most of it) and I am trying to relate a book we read in class to the human reaction when oppressed. Ironically, my main subject for the paper is actually the Isrealites during biblical times.
As for Nazism, it was around in Germany since the late 19th century in more secretive forms. It became more overt after the German hyper-inflation.
This is such a huge topic and it is a major topic of my studies. The most important part is to remember: The Nazi's never recieved more than 40% of the vote before Hitler was named Chancellor by Hindenberg/von Pappen. He would have never gained steam had it not been for the Great Depression and the fact that the right wing nationalists gave him credibility when they let him participate in the Young Plan Referendum. Also, Germans felt like Weimar could do nothing, even though they did get some stuff done. When Hitler stood up during his Beer Hall Putsch trial, he showed that he was strong. That he could let people feel proud to be a German again.
Yup, Germany got the ole screw job at the end, despite ending the war with a cease fire instead of surrender.
The whole first world war is something of a tragedy. The UK just could NOT accept that ANY other power should be allowed to build a navy to rival them, and that arrogance caused such a chain reaction of events...
I mean, the Germans would *never* have invaded England - the Kaiser was the nephew of the King, for cryin out loud! He was enamored of England and English history - that's half the reason he kept BUILDING the navy! (Although, clearly, Tirpitz's goals with it where probably different)
France? Oh, yeah. Russian? Yup. England? Not a chance - all the way up until the day England declared war on Germany, there was still the hope in Germany that the UK would side with them, or at least stay neutral as a sign of solidarity.
The whole thing is rather horribly tragic.
More importantly to the treaty is Willsons 14 pts and Germany did not techniquely lose the war. The army didnt lose the country surrendered--but they would have lost. That is why unconditional surrender was needed for WWII--no ability to repeat WWI's mistakes. The German people felt they would get Willsons 14pts (no one would be to blame and no real reperations) but got the TofV.
Furthermore look at German's reperations on Russia to get out of WWI--that was harsh so you cansay that a harsh consequence was expected and is what they got in the TofV. Treaty took away ~25% of Russias land.
The French occupation of the coal mines in west germany after germany missed reperation payments further brought more hatred to the TofV.
Finally the TofV was fundamentally flawed--it was not harsh enough but not light enough. So it didnt destroy Germany but enforced a strong hatred for the treaty. In fact reperations ended BEFORE hitler and the nazis took power--hence practically all Germans hated the TofV.
The TofV did not bring Nazism--it was actually the extreme polarization of the politics in Germany. The largest non soviet communist party in the world at the time was the german communist party (by 1932 Nazi and communist parties combined were the majority of the vote). To further aid the Nazis was that the communists viewed the socialists as a greater enemy than the Nazis and worked against the socialists. The conservative government allied it self with the Nazis and felt Hitler was "bound hand and foot." Basically the Nazis were underestimated by the communists and conservatives in power in Germany.
This is why the popular front was adopted later by the communists to ally themselves with the socialists to stop fascism and then eventually destroy the socialists and spread communism.
Furthermore look at German's reperations on Russia to get out of WWI--that was harsh so you cansay that a harsh consequence was expected and is what they got in the TofV. Treaty took away ~25% of Russias land.
The French occupation of the coal mines in west germany after germany missed reperation payments further brought more hatred to the TofV.
Finally the TofV was fundamentally flawed--it was not harsh enough but not light enough. So it didnt destroy Germany but enforced a strong hatred for the treaty. In fact reperations ended BEFORE hitler and the nazis took power--hence practically all Germans hated the TofV.
The TofV did not bring Nazism--it was actually the extreme polarization of the politics in Germany. The largest non soviet communist party in the world at the time was the german communist party (by 1932 Nazi and communist parties combined were the majority of the vote). To further aid the Nazis was that the communists viewed the socialists as a greater enemy than the Nazis and worked against the socialists. The conservative government allied it self with the Nazis and felt Hitler was "bound hand and foot." Basically the Nazis were underestimated by the communists and conservatives in power in Germany.
This is why the popular front was adopted later by the communists to ally themselves with the socialists to stop fascism and then eventually destroy the socialists and spread communism.
Basic chain of events:
Arch Duke shot
Austra-Hungary delivered ulitmatum to Serbia with a 48-hour time limit
Demands are not meet (these demands are insain)
AH declares war on Serbia
Russia backs Serbia
Russia declares war on AH
Germany backs AH and declares war on Russia/Serbia
France mobilizes
Germany demands France stops mobilizing
France doesnt stop
Germany declares war on France
Germany carries out Schlieffen plan--invasion of France (same basic plan as WWII--but better mobilization in WWII so more effective)
Schlieffen plan involves going thorugh neutral Belgium
UK joined because Germany went through neutral Belgium which had an alliance with UK.
So now you have AH and Germany vs Russia, France, UK (main players)
The tragedy really is the involvement of the UK. The war would have been over by about 1916 with no UK--with a german victory. But no America as we see it today. So hey it worked to our benifit
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
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The Depression really kicked out the last supports of the Weimar government. The reparations while harsh, were not crippling. Though, combined with the economic downturn and the ongoing internal economic difficulties, they contributed to the fall of the government.
To the OP: There are many books devoted to this particular topic.
To the OP: There are many books devoted to this particular topic.
Wrong war.
Back to history class with you!
In WW2, of *course* Germany wanted to invade England. But that was a RADICALLY different Germany than fought WW1.
Howso? The US and Germany were on more-or-less friendly terms until the war started.
Certainly, against a UK-German alliance (that would surely have arisen out of a German WW1 victory), the US would be in an....interesting position. But given how much Germany hated Russia, and how much the UK generally distrusted Russia, I doubt their first target would be the US, or if they would consider hostilities towards us at all.
WWI transformed US from a 2.5 world power to a 1.5 world power. Kicked our industry in the butt and by WWII we were a world power comparable to germany.
With out wwi US would be as powerful as italy. Then no wwii so US not a super power
got me there but you still dont know why UK joined WWI it was because of German army going through neutral Belgium that had an allience with UK. Your logic would have had UK back germany to weaken france's navy. But UK also wanted a balence of power in europe--and never truely felt threatened in the seas--the sub warefare was not forseen by the brits.
Furthermore by the time UK joined it was AH and Germany vs Serbs, Russia, and France--basically all the European major land powers. UK just prolonged the war and lead to an allied victory instead of a german victory
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