Help with $50 video card selection

[Mloot]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
With all these donations coming in, maybe a cheap AGP P4 mobo is in the works?

If he gets enough, that would be a great solution. At the same time, however, it's entirely possible that a generic mobo won't fit quite right in an HP casing, so he might also be looking at having to get a new case and PSU. Something like a $50-60 Antec case w/PSU might do just fine.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: Mloot

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
With all these donations coming in, maybe a cheap AGP P4 mobo is in the works?

If he gets enough, that would be a great solution. At the same time, however, it's entirely possible that a generic mobo won't fit quite right in an HP casing, so he might also be looking at having to get a new case and PSU. Something like a $50-60 Antec case w/PSU might do just fine.

That's my concern also. Maybe a microATX would fit for sure?

 

[EricR]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
What type of processor is in it?

Intel Pentium4 2.8 GHz

Thanks!

 

[EricR]

Any issues with reloading the HP factory installed WinXP Home onto another motherboard?

Thanks,

EricR

 

[Mloot]

Originally posted by: EricR
Any issues with reloading the HP factory installed WinXP Home onto another motherboard?

Thanks,

EricR

Honestly, I don't quite know.

 

[EricR]

Originally posted by: Mloot
Uggh. Being that the kid is limited to a PCI video card, I don't see alot of sense in spending alot of $$ on a video card, when a cheaper one will do the job just as well.

A couple of years ago, I did a PCI video card review and I tried to include as many cards as I could. Being that it's a little dated, it does not include the FX 5700LE PCI, or some of the Radeon 9000 variants, such as the 9200 or 9250 PCI. Anyway, when all was said and done, the Radeon 9100 PCI basically whooped the pants off all other comers, except the FX 5600 PCI (which is very hard to find and also very expensive). The 128mb 9100 PCI is incredibly hard to find, but sometimes you run across a deal like this:

9100 PCI 64mb for $39.00 + shipping and/or tax if applicable

I've never purchased anything from Hyper Microsystems, but based on their reseller rating, I wouldn't have any problem sending them some of my hard-earned money.

The 9100 PCI will be faster than practically any other card you can get, unless you can score a 5600 or 5700LE PCI, which is highly doubtful, at least in the $50 price range.

Hope that helps a little.

Thanks for the PCI input, mloot!

So, I take it running the video thru the PCI bus is not so hot for bandwidth reasons?

If we go with one of the PCI cards as suggested above, how much difference in performance would there be as compared to the earlier AGP suggestions such as the 9600XT or the Geforce 6200?

Thanks again to all!

EricR

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: EricR
Any issues with reloading the HP factory installed WinXP Home onto another motherboard?

Thanks,

EricR

If they only have restore discs, yes there will be a problem. The HP pre-loaded drivers are for that chipset; you would have to get the same chipset as a replacement. All the 845GV chipsets I saw on NewEgg are PCI only as well. If they have the actual XP install discs there won't be a problem with that.

 

[fbrdphreak]

This is a list of all AGP mobo's that should support that processor:
Link

There are also at least a few of those in NewEgg refurb.

Might wanna start a topic over in motherboards tho, I'm no Intel mobo expert at all.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Should not be a problem. Make sure she still has the code if you wipe it out though.
I knew what registry entries hold the product code for 95/98 but I dont know if you can withdraw the XP serial code out of the registry anymore or not.

I'd google it but I'm strapped for time now. If you need I will research it later.

But as long as you have the code it should work formatting the machine. I'd first attempt to boot off the same HD image she has now, if you replace the HD.. might work.


Although, instead of creating new issues.. and the need for even more $$

I would just go with this, if it were me.
Geforce 5700LE PCI $85
Another $85 5700 both of these have DVI/VGA/TV out. So hes ready for an LCD (hehe my favorite part to my computer, I LOVE DVI+Cleartype)
Its the fastest PCI card ever made, and is ready for Vista's Aeroglass interface with its 128MB of memory and DX9 hardware onboard.

If more people drum up cash, and you are willing to take the risk of swapping out their current CPU/RAM all that jazz and a OS reinstall.. a board with AGP would probably be good.
But if you are going to take a jump from the 5700, it might as well be a 6600/GT IMO.

Pop that 5700LE in, and spend some time over there tweaking out his machine.
I'd do that and just get a whole new PC someday rather than just do the board/video card.

Just make sure he has Spybot installed (and the immunizer ran), put the new free version of Opera on there (or firefox), and an up-to-date antivirus program and he should be set/safe.
I use IE myself because its the corporate standard, and I know how to "surf safe".. but the now completely free Opera will teach him the superior ways of web browsing and be safer for a younger person than IE would be.

I'd suggest NOD32 for antivirus. Its one of the lightest (on sys resources) that I've ever used, and better than the free antivirus apps IMO. Won't slow down his system any.
Maybe the money left over (if you get the $85 5700), would best be spent on NOD32 if he doesnt have an up to date antivirus app?

I'm actually going to order one of those 5700LEs for myself. Not only is the 5700LE the best PCI card ever made, but make GREAT utility/backup cards for even cutting edge rigs.
I like to keep one around to work on peoples computers. Plus if i sell my video card ever, its nice to have a PCI card I can pop in and at least game at 1024x768 (thats what the 5700LE is capable of even in games such as BF2, albiet "low" settings. But 800x600 it runs great at 800x600@medium which looks much better).
Not too shabby for a PCI card (it has no equal). If you ask me that is, but most around these parts will turn their nose up to anything thats not a 6600GT or faster.

The kid will be happy. And its guaranteed to blow away that onboard. :thumbsup:

 

[fbrdphreak]

From what I understand, wouldn't a 9250 be better than a 5700LE? Cheaper too

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
From what I understand, wouldn't a 9250 be better than a 5700LE? Cheaper too

9250 is actually quite a bit slower than a 9100 (if memory serves me correct). They neutered that card

The best ATI PCI video card ever made was that 9100. And it doenst beat the 5700LE.
Also, sounds like his PC is capable of running Vista, and the high end Aeroglass GUI with the appropriate video card.
128MB onboard, DX9 features.. both requirements of which the 5700LE fullfills.

Also ATI is dropping support for all their PCI cards for Vista, so even if they were DX9 you wouldnt recieve anything beyond basic functioning Microsoft drivers (and little to no updates).

 

[imported_Rampage]

Heres a PCI card roundup that I found about a year ago. Its outdated but still quite good.

Again if you think they ever might want to upgrade to Vista, the 5700 is pretty much your only choice.

The 9100 ROCKED, and I love that card, but alas its still slower than the 5700, and no Aeroglass support/future driver updates in Vista, as well as zero DX9 support (even tho the FX is slow in DX9.. it still does operate games in DX9 mode, and DX8 mode can be ran instead and it will be quite a bit faster then).

You'll notice the 9100 and 5600 PCI card go back and forth for the lead.. sometimes each one rocking the other.
Just remember the 5700 has an extra vertex shading unit and other additions that were added to the 5900/5700 lineup (better ultrashadow support ect), and that its quite a bit more capable than the 5600.
So its going to beat that 9100, as well as have all the advantages that comes with DX9/Vista support.

link

Also it should be noted, that a DX8 based card such as the 9100 would even run Battlefield 2.
You need a Radeon 8500 minimum for that. The 5700LE will do it, but like I specified in the other post, you are looking at 1024x768 w/medium settings.

I believe thats playable with the rest of the rig you detailed. I saw benchmarks for Battlefield 2 with the 5700LE, and a slower 2.0 ghz processor and it almost hacked it at 1024x768@medium settings.
With his 2.8ghz processor he should be fine at those settings. If not, low settings@1024 or 800x600 is sure to get a good 50-60FPS minimum framerate and probably 80-90 maximum.

And this is BF2 we're talking about!! Haha! I find it amazing its possible with ANY PCI card but it is. Unfortunately just one :frown:
Someone needs to release just a single new PCI card like a 6200 PCI.

 

[EricR]

Hi all,

I've got to run and drop our van off at the shop to get new front brakes and won't likely check this thread again until tomorrow morning.

THANKS for ALL of the HELP! You guys are just great.

I'm leaning towards picking the best available PCI based video card over a new motherboard or building a new system. $56 has been donated and is WAY above and beyond what I could have dreamed with my first post asking for advice. To try to stretch this generiousity into a MB & video card (& maybe case/PS) would make me feel very awkward.

Additional suggestions & ideas are welcome!

Thanks to all!

Special thanks to you four who so kindly offered to send $$ and then followed up so quick!

And and extra special thanks to Rollo for starting the donation bandwagon rolling!

It looks like the target machine is still at 256MB. I'll see they get some more RAM. Will 512MB be enough to make good use of a better video card?

Thanks, thanks & thanks again!

 

[imported_Rampage]

Yes 512MB will be fine. I mean, theres RAM nazis running around who think 1GB is required but 512MB works pretty damn good. In fact the "smoothness" doesnt increase nearly as much after you pass 512 in a system (IMO).
Getting to 512 is the sweet spot if you ask me. Of course I enjoy my 1GB to be safe.. though games like BF2 (poorly coded) seem to leech away on 2GB of RAM.. which is just damn ridiculous.

I think you are on the right path, 5700LE and 512MB of ram is a very good use of the money.
I updated the post above yours with Battlefield 2 info while using a 5700LE (yes it works, even with that cutting edge game). Any DX8 based PCI card won't run it at all.

Hopefully he wont play the resource-hog that is BF2.. but if he does.. he'll be ready!

edit- Heres 5700LE BF2 benchmarks Link
I might have been slightly off in my 1024x768 prediction, but I think you are looking at BF2 being playable at 800x600@medium settings with his rig (with the 512MB RAM upgrade). :thumbsup:

You have a good balance going.. dont want to get yourself in too big of a mess.. the RAM and video card will be a great, and HUGE improvement without basically buying a new PC.
He does need a new PC, but its not your obligation to do THAT. Haha.. and it'd be hard to raise that kinda money obviously.

I'm really glad to be able to help out here. I hope we make the kid happy, which in turn will make his hardworking mother happy. :thumbsup:


If you get him the 5700LE/512MB of RAM.. pick him up a copy of Quake 4 (comes out the 18th).. it will run on that machine at 640x480 or 800x600, possibly higher.
Its a MUCH better engine than BF2, much less "system needy" and better looking as well.
I know I have my preorder for Q4 already placed!

If you are willing to buy him Q4 along with the RAM/5700.. I'll be willing to toss in more $$!

The 18th is only Tuesday!
This kid will have a heart attack once Quake 4 comes BLASTING across his screen in all its glory.
This would make him FREAK OUT! :thumbsup:

 

[Mloot]

Yes, there is a big difference going from a top end PCI card to a 9600 Pro/XT (what would be considered a budget card today). The truth is that the PCI bus really limits just how much information can be passed between the CPU and video card. My first PC was a PCI-only Dell, which I suffered with for about 2 years before I built an AGP-equipped rig, and in that time I went through a couple of dozen different PCI cards, always looking for the best performing one. I was happiest with the 9100, because in the games I played it was as fast, or faster, than the 5600 PCI that I had at one time. I actually sold my 5600 and kept the 9100 because it provided smoother gameplay.

Southpaw, nice work suggesting the 5700LE, but I would hesitate to fully recommend them over cheaper cards. Now, I haven't had the opportunity to play with a 5700LE PCI, but from everything I've read, both the ones made by Apollo and Jaton only sport a 64-bit memory bus, which would effectively give them 1/2 the performance of a normal 5700LE. AFAIK, the only company that made a 5700LE with a 128-bit memory interface was Inno3D, and that was only in the 256mb model. These are incredibly hard to find (I've only seen 2 or 3 in the last several months on Ebay), and when they are found they typically go for about $130-150. Unfortanately, it's gotten to the point where sometimes the only way to guarantee that you get a 128-bit PCI card is to get one with 256mb of RAM. Too many of the 128mb models, nowadays, are only 64-bit cards, since they are presumably cheaper for the companies to make.

If you could find an Inno3D FX 5700LE PCI w/256mb, then I would suggest getting that one, just for its newer features. But as to whether a 5700LE would be faster than a 9100, I'm not so sure. Here is one page of a nice review that pits an AGP 5700LE against some other cards, including a standard 5600. In most cases, it looks as if the 5600 is actually the faster of the two, and at other times they are very close in performance. Being that the 9100 PCI is just about as fast as a 5600 PCI, I would find it surprising if the 5700LE PCI could keep up in most cases.

EricR, is the kid that owns the pc likely to run Vista on this rig when it becomes available, or is it more likely he'll stick with XP for the forseeable future? If you take Vista out of the picture, and if building an AGP-based system is not likely, then I think the 9100 would be your best bet. It's cheaper than the other PCI cards, and is just as fast at gaming.

EDIT: If you want a good DX9 based PCI card, then try contacting OCIE or Amamax. I believe these are the only two dealers in the U.S. that have sold the 5600 PCI (I have purchased 5600 PCI's from both companies in the past). They both appear to be out of stock at the moment, but you could call them and ask if they will be getting any in stock soon. I would recommend a PCI 5600 over a 5700LE at this point, simply because I couldn't be sure if the 5700LE had a 64-bit or 128-bit interface. If you call Amamax, ask for Charles. He owns the place and can answer your questions better than the customer service folks at Amamax.

 

[imported_Rampage]

Originally posted by: Mloot
Yes, there is a big difference going from a top end PCI card to a 9600 Pro/XT (what would be considered a budget card today). The truth is that the PCI bus really limits just how much information can be passed between the CPU and video card. My first PC was a PCI-only Dell, which I suffered with for about 2 years before I built an AGP-equipped rig, and in that time I went through a couple of dozen different PCI cards, always looking for the best performing one. I was happiest with the 9100, because in the games I played it was as fast, or faster, than the 5600 PCI that I had at one time. I actually sold my 5600 and kept the 9100 because it provided smoother gameplay.

Southpaw, nice work suggesting the 5700LE, but I would hesitate to fully recommend them over cheaper cards. Now, I haven't had the opportunity to play with a 5700LE PCI, but from everything I've read, both the ones made by Apollo and Jaton only sport a 64-bit memory bus, which would effectively give them 1/2 the performance of a normal 5700LE. AFAIK, the only company that made a 5700LE with a 128-bit memory interface was Inno3D, and that was only in the 256mb model. These are incredibly hard to find (I've only seen 2 or 3 in the last several months on Ebay), and when they are found they typically go for about $130-150. Unfortanately, it's gotten to the point where sometimes the only way to guarantee that you get a 128-bit PCI card is to get one with 256mb of RAM. Too many of the 128mb models, nowadays, are only 64-bit cards, since they are presumably cheaper for the companies to make.

If you could find an Inno3D FX 5700LE PCI w/256mb, then I would suggest getting that one, just for its newer features. But as to whether a 5700LE would be faster than a 9100, I'm not so sure. Here is one page of a nice review that pits an AGP 5700LE against some other cards, including a standard 5600. In most cases, it looks as if the 5600 is actually the faster of the two, and at other times they are very close in performance. Being that the 9100 PCI is just about as fast as a 5600 PCI, I would find it surprising if the 5700LE PCI could keep up in most cases.

EricR, is the kid that owns the pc likely to run Vista on this rig when it becomes available, or is it more likely he'll stick with XP for the forseeable future? If you take Vista out of the picture, and if building an AGP-based system is not likely, then I think the 9100 would be your best bet. It's cheaper than the other PCI cards, and is just as fast at gaming.

I'd agree with you completely, if newer games didnt require at least a basic DX9 feature set to even run.
The 5700 will do this. The Vista advantage is just a bonus, at least if the kid stops gaming.. or if this PC ends up in someone elses hands someday as they buy a whole new PC, you can run Vista on it and use it for school papers ect.

They might end up giving the PC to this guy when they do buy a new one someday, and running Aeroglass on Vista would sure be cool for whoever uses it for a work/school PC.

Not be stuck with Avalon (the low end interface for Vista). Actually those PCI 9xxx cards might be stuck with the Windows2000 interface in Vista, maybe not even Avalon.. I'm not sure.

 

[Mloot]

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a 5700LE PCI either, if there was a way to guarantee that you were getting a 128-bit card. If he gets a 64-bit one, it will be dog-slow.

This Mad Dog 5200 PCI would be a decent buy if it has the 128-bit interface. If he goes into CompUSA, he could probably ask them, or if he opens the box and finds it is not a 128-bit card, I believe it could be returned (I'm not sure if they have a restocking fee or not). Mad Dog made the fastest 5200 PCI around, because of its faster clock speeds, and it wasn't much slower than a 5600 PCI. Here is an example of a 64-bit Mad Dog 5200 PCI. Notice the missing memory modules? It would be the same on the reverse side of the card as well, and its a dead-giveaway that it is a 64-bit card. The 128-bit Mad Dog 5200 PCI looks exactly like this one by Prolink. If the one at CompUSA has all eight memory modules (4 front and 4 back), then that would be a good DX9 PCI card for the price.

 

[imported_Rampage]

You might be right about a 5600 PCI being faster than a 5700 due to the 64bit issue.

But I thought they only made 128bit 5700s (even the LE). Regardless, it would be close due to the extra vertex shader and other minor enhancements made to the 5700/5900 lineup from the 5600/5800s.
I thought the big advantage to the 5700 lineup over the 5600s was that they only offered 128bit models and you didnt have to worry about that?
With the 5600s they had revision A and B.. the difference being the interface. And it was fixed with the 5700s? I'm fairly certain about this.

According to my BF2 benchmark link, the 5700LE performs the same as a GF6 6200.
PCI card purchases do suck. Overall its hard to top the 5700LE (or 5600), as dumb as that sounds.

 

[nRollo]

Since we're limited on the card by the slot, what about a SBLive and another 256 RAM as well?
Or a SB Audigy?

Onboard audio can impact framerates as well, and going to a Live or Audigy would help.

 

[Silversierra]

How about this card?
http://www.chumbo.com/Info.aspx?id=304966
Wouldn't it be the best one yet?
Geforce 6200 pci.

 

[Mloot]

Originally posted by: Silversierra
How about this card?
http://www.chumbo.com/Info.aspx?id=304966
Wouldn't it be the best one yet?
Geforce 6200 pci.

Nice find! I had no idea that a newer 6xxx series had been released for PCI. It looks like a winner.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Mloot

Originally posted by: Silversierra
How about this card?
http://www.chumbo.com/Info.aspx?id=304966
Wouldn't it be the best one yet?
Geforce 6200 pci.

Nice find! I had no idea that a newer 6xxx series had been released for PCI. It looks like a winner.

No doubt this is the way to go- I didn't know these existed. I've heard there might be some more cash coming your way, maybe you can still get the RAM. Good luck with it all and thanks again to all.

AT is the best forum on the net, and things like this are one of the reasons.

 

[EricR]

Hi again,

So does everyone agree on the GeForce 6200 PCI by 3dFuzion?

Unless someone has a better suggestion, I'll order this card tomorrow (Friday). It's $79.00 at Chumbo.com with free shipping (thanks Silversierra)!

We're now up to $61.00 donated to this cause!! <minus paypal fees which I'll cover>

I'll also take care of bumping their RAM up to at least 512MB.

If anyone else cares to get in on this let me know via this thread or a PM. Any amount is OK, up to another $18.00 in paypal donations, which would cover the full cost of the 6200 card. This would be especially great as then his mom would still have the full $50 she budgeted for the video card to go buy him clothes or music or something else for his birthday. Please feel zero pressure. That the AT community even sent a single cent is simply amazing to me. Please only pitch in towards the remaining $18 if it is a joy for you to do so. Anything over this last $18 will be returned to the sender(s).

HUGE THANKS to all who have (or will) give of there time and/or $$ to help in this effort. It's a stunningly successful expression of the quality of people who make up the AT community.

EricR

 

[EricR]

Originally posted by: southpawuni
... If you get him the 5700LE/512MB of RAM.. pick him up a copy of Quake 4 (comes out the 18th).. it will run on that machine at 640x480 or 800x600, possibly higher.
Its a MUCH better engine than BF2, much less "system needy" and better looking as well.
I know I have my preorder for Q4 already placed!

If you are willing to buy him Q4 along with the RAM/5700.. I'll be willing to toss in more $$!

The 18th is only Tuesday!
This kid will have a heart attack once Quake 4 comes BLASTING across his screen in all its glory.
This would make him FREAK OUT! :thumbsup:

Southpawuni,

How much is Quake 4 and what is it rated?

I've never seen Quake and am wondering how violent it is. I know the mom is careful about this kind of thing.

Thanks for the idea and thanks in advance for any follow-up info!

EricR

 

[Mloot]

I think the combination of the 6200 PCI and some extra RAM is the best bet. Whereas it will be nice for the kid to be able to open up a shiny, new video card for his birthday, you can get some really good deals on RAM in the FS/FT forum, usually at a much lower price than new.

Do you know what kind of memory it uses (i.e. what speed, such as pc2100, pc2700, etc), and is it a dual or single channel mobo?