Help Troubleshooting Uneven Brake Pad Wear

CupCak3

Golden Member
Nov 11, 2005
1,318
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I have a 2001 Pontiac Sunfire with ~120k miles on it. I replaced my front disks and pads for the 2nd time this last weekend and found some very strange pad wear. The inner pads were worn down noticeably more than the outer pads. The right side pads were worn much more than the left to the point that the inner right pad was almost down to the rivets but left side still had a decent amount of pad left.

Is there any way for me to diagnose what exactly the problem is between the caliper, brake hoses, master cylinder assembly or ABS system?

Thanks!
 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
I can't say that I'm familiar with your specific setup, but brake calipers must be free to move in and out. Contact points are usually the two shoulder bolts that hold the caliper and the two resting surfaces (top and bottom) where the caliper meets the caliper support bracket. Everything needs to be free from any wear, rust, or dirt. After smoothing out any blemishes and cleaning apply brake grease to these points (bolts and resting points). Remove any excess grease so it doesn't get on the pads.

If there are sheet metal caps on the bracket they are cheap to replace along with any worn bolts.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
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106
Make sure your caliper slides are properly lubricated and in good condition.
 

radioouman

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 2002
8,632
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Sounds like your brake calipers are sticking. This could be the caliper pins or it could be a bad caliper on the right side. My truck always wears out the inside pad before the outside pad, but in my experience, the driver's side wears out faster than the passenger's side.

You should jack up the front end of the car and put the transmission in neutral and spin the tires to see if there is a noticable difference in resistance. If they are about equal, then it is probably OK. If one wheel takes significantly more effort, then the caliper is sticking. However, if you got 120,000 miles out of the original brakes, I doubt that anything is sticking.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
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Originally posted by: Squisher
I can't say that I'm familiar with your specific setup, but brake calipers must be free to move in and out. Contact points are usually the two shoulder bolts that hold the caliper and the two resting surfaces (top and bottom) where the caliper meets the caliper support bracket. Everything needs to be free from any wear, rust, or dirt. After smoothing out any blemishes and cleaning apply brake grease to these points (bolts and resting points). Remove any excess grease so it doesn't get on the pads.

If there are sheet metal caps on the bracket they are cheap to replace along with any worn bolts.
This

It's about all you can do with no guarantee it will fix it. It's a common GM brake problem.

I would add that with that mileage, there is a very real possibility that you have a bad flex hose on the side that is worn down the most. They collapse on the inside (where you can't see obviously) and allow pressure in, but not out. If you do decide to replace one, replace them both as the other one will fail also.

There are gages you can buy to go in between the pads. You remove the caliper, put the gage in between the pads, stomp on the brake pedal and see how much pressure the system is generating. When you release the pedal, any residual pressure would show up on that gage. It would be far cheaper to just replace the hoses than to buy a set of these gages. Especially if you have no long term use for them.

Edit: Every bit of advice you have gotten thus far is good advice IMO. I just quoted Squisher's post because he covered more ground.
 

CupCak3

Golden Member
Nov 11, 2005
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Thank you everyone for the replies!

Squisher: Which ?sheet metal caps? are you referring to?

Boomerang? you weren?t kidding about that gauge price? I didn?t do much searching but the one I found was 180 bucks! (though it does seem like a handy tool if you worked in a shop)

When I put on the new pads, we made sure to lubricate well all the contact points b/t the calipers and the holding bracket.

I won?t be able to put the car up on a jack until this weekend as I don?t have a level, safe spot at my house right now do to the work. I?ll then be able to do the ?spin? test and troubleshoot a bit more if it is the flex hose or the calipers. If (or when) I do find the problem, I?ll probably end up changing out the calipers and the flex hoses since they are so cheap (17/18 bucks for lifetime calipers and 10-13 bucks for hoses).

If I end up deciding to change the front and rear hoses, what is the best workflow to do so? Can I change all four hoses and the front calipers at once then bleed each of the wheels starting at the back? Or should I bleed as I change the hose and then bleed each wheel again when I?m finished?

Also when changing the flex hoses, is there safe way to ?plug? the brake line so I don?t empty out the master cylinder?


Thanks again for everyone?s help!
 

jaha2000

Senior member
Jul 28, 2008
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When you change the hoses you will have to bleed the brakes, no too ways about it...
If that thing has drums on the back with that kind of mileage i would be willing to be the bleeders are frozen.
Read up on the internet or find a buddy that knows what hes doing, bleeding brakes is an easy task but can be deadly if screwed up.
Two people makes it much easier.
1. Change out all your flex hoses.
2. Fill up master cylinder.
3. Have you buddy get in the car and pump the brakes till the pedal is hard.
4. Have your buddy hold hard pressure on the pedal and open the bleader, bubbles, fluid, mess comes out. Close the bleader back up then have your friend release pressure on the pedal. If they let go of the pedal with the bleader open you are going to suck air back in... thats bad.
5. Repet the process until no more air bubbles come out when you open the bleeder. Make sure to keep the master cylinder full. If you run it out, it will take a LONG time to bleed the air out of it.

Good luck!
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
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With that mileage do not worry about emptying the master cylinder. It is time for a complete brake system fluid change. The brake fluid is hygroscopic and will over time, absorb some moisture, leading to rust and other buildup .. so change all of it ... and in my view of your problem, it sounds like a defective brake caliper .. also check that the caliper bracket is square in relation to the rotor .. something may have caused it to bend just a bit. And check the wheel bearings are ok, well lubed and tightened to the proper preload .. too much slop and the rotor will move in and out just a bit.
 

mooseracing

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2006
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On a sliding caliper system there is no way to get around the pad closest to piston wearing the most. Even if it is new and well lubed, it's just a design flaw. Just like the leading show (iirc) wears more than the following shoe (again irrc, or it's vice versa).

But you side to side is a little screwed. Wire brush everything down Use Pin grease or alot of antsieze.

After mounting the caliper on the car press and release the brakes. See how each side compares and if you can turn the rotor. DO NOT compress the brakes with a caliper unmounted, you will push the piston out and need a new seal.

It is natural for a Disc brake system to drag on the rotors all the time. But if it isn't releasing after being properly lubed, the problem can be a bad pistion in the caliper or flex line. With higher bets on flex line.


Bleed from furthest to closest. Don't worry about losing all the fluid, it won't come gushing out at you when you unhook the line.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
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Originally posted by: CupCak3
Also when changing the flex hoses, is there safe way to ?plug? the brake line so I don?t empty out the master cylinder?
I use rubber nipples typically used to seal unused vacuum ports. I stuff a larger one into the banjo fitting on the end of flexible lines. The O.D. is doing the sealing in that case. I use smaller ones on brake lines themselves. The I.D. is doing the sealing there. I use them as required depending on what kind of work I'm doing.

I find that constant dripping of fluid to be disconcerting while I'm working. When there's no dripping, all is right with the world. :D Just one of my things. Even though that fluid will be bled out when done, I just don't like it running out and making a mess. Just me, and maybe you too, if you're asking.


 

CupCak3

Golden Member
Nov 11, 2005
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I've been doing quite a bit of reading on the net and will be doing the work w/ my dad who has done brake work like this before (though admittedly many years ago)

boomerang, excellent tip on the nipples. My main concern was actually a point which jaha2000 brought up about getting air into the master cylinder and being a PITA/long bleed time to get all the bubbles out.

I've seen a couple mentions around the net about the point which bruceb brings up about h2o in the brake fluid. My plan is to suck out w/ a turkey baster the fluid in the main reservoir and then top off w/ new. While putting on the new hoses and front calipers, I would like to pay close attention to make sure the fluid level does not drop to get air in the master cylinder. After all new hoses are on, my dad and I will start bleeding the brakes starting in the rear and then the fronts. I'm hoping through the changing of hoses and bleeding that I'll be able to drain out most of the old fluid.

Would I be safe to assume that I don't actually need to do a total fluid drain if the fluid which comes out isn't dark colored from rust?

mooseracing, good tip on wirebrushing and cleaning. It may save me 30 bucks. (though I may end up replacing the calipers anyways since the OEM remanufactured ones I got were only 15 bucks a pop)

bruceb, with what you described on the wheel bearings, can that be checked by trying to "wobble" the tire when its jacked up and if it doesn't move the bearing is ok?

Thanks again everyone for your help and comments!
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: CupCak3
I've been doing quite a bit of reading on the net and will be doing the work w/ my dad who has done brake work like this before (though admittedly many years ago)

boomerang, excellent tip on the nipples. My main concern was actually a point which jaha2000 brought up about getting air into the master cylinder and being a PITA/long bleed time to get all the bubbles out.

I've seen a couple mentions around the net about the point which bruceb brings up about h2o in the brake fluid. My plan is to suck out w/ a turkey baster the fluid in the main reservoir and then top off w/ new. While putting on the new hoses and front calipers, I would like to pay close attention to make sure the fluid level does not drop to get air in the master cylinder. After all new hoses are on, my dad and I will start bleeding the brakes starting in the rear and then the fronts. I'm hoping through the changing of hoses and bleeding that I'll be able to drain out most of the old fluid.

Would I be safe to assume that I don't actually need to do a total fluid drain if the fluid which comes out isn't dark colored from rust?
The procedure you've outlined is exactly how I do it. You will essentially be doing a total fluid flush. I bleed from farthest to nearest until the fluid comes out clear. Sucking out the reservoir and filling with fresh is the key as far as I'm concerned. Makes the job go faster. One thing I rarely see mentioned here is the effect brake fluid has on paint. You know it will take it off, bubble or blister it in a heartbeat right? If you spill some on your paint, before you have time to say 'oh shit' the damage will be done. Just a heads up and I apologize ahead of time if you know this already.

mooseracing, good tip on wirebrushing and cleaning. It may save me 30 bucks. (though I may end up replacing the calipers anyways since the OEM remanufactured ones I got were only 15 bucks a pop)

bruceb, with what you described on the wheel bearings, can that be checked by trying to "wobble" the tire when its jacked up and if it doesn't move the bearing is ok?

Thanks again everyone for your help and comments!
For $15 each I'd replace the calipers in a heartbeat. Somebody mentioned you might have a sticky piston. This will take that possibility out of the picture. (Next time you put rear shoes on, replace the wheel cylinders too. Assuming you have drums in the rear.)

I don't want to speak for bruceb, but I don't think he realizes your car is front wheel drive. You don't have wheel bearings per se, you have hub assemblies. They usually don't get worn to where they wobble, they start making a growling kind of noise when driving or turning. They won't wobble, because there is a very wide bearing in them.

One last bit of advice. I know the weekend is fast approaching, but if you can easily spray some liquid wrench type stuff on the connections you're going to be taking apart now, you'll be that much further ahead when you go to do the job. I don't know where you're at in Ohio, but if you're in the rust belt like I am, you know how rusty fittings and such can get on an 8 year old car.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
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Point taken as to wheel bearings per se on a front drive car .. but the hub can still cause issues if it goes bad, as the brake rotor is on it.
 

jaha2000

Senior member
Jul 28, 2008
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Sounds like you have got it under control..
My expirence has been just keep the Master cylinder full, hell bench bleeding one takes forever!!!!
For 15 bucks replace the calipers, that is a no brainer for sure!.
Good luck man!
 

mooseracing

Golden Member
Mar 9, 2006
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Originally posted by: boomerang

For $15 each I'd replace the calipers in a heartbeat. Somebody mentioned you might have a sticky piston. This will take that possibility out of the picture.


If only that were the case....I've had some that stick right out of the box. I always bench test them with air first.
 

AMCRambler

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2001
7,714
31
91
Pretty sure I've never had a pair of pads wear evenly between the inners and outers. Usually they're within and eighth of an inch of each other though. I've seen some cars with as much as a 1.4 inch difference in brake pad thickness between the inner and outer. Now if the one pad is not even worn and the other is completely worn then there's a problem otherwise I think that's normal. If you had a sticky caliper you'd notice it when braking. Same thing if it's the caliper slides. The car would pull to one side or pull one way then the other. If the braking is fine then I don't think you have an issue. Are the pads lasting long enough?