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Dissipate
Diamond Member
That book won't tell me I'm wrong. It is common practice to make claims and then cite particular works from other authors to support your claim. Ever heard of a footnote? Oh yeah, last time I checked most citations do not include information on how to obtain free copies of such material. I made a claim, I cited a source from an authority which supports that claim, end of story.
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
signed the petition, i am in favor of the one china ruled by taiwan statement mentioned earlier
Dissipate
Diamond Member
Bwahaha. Yeah, I'm sure EVERYONE refers to that book everytime they post.
The Internet is anarchy, there are no rules here, except those that the admins impose upon us. Therefore, I happened to have performed semi-formal service in an extremely informal environment. I went above and beyond, exactly opposite of "breaking a rule."
please at least read the petition and what it requests.
i'm not requesting anything stupid or crazy. i don't want the US to get screwed over, i'm a US citizen. i did not say anything about war or embargo, or making China an enemy. the US just needs to clarify what its relationships with China and Taiwan. China takes anything and everything as "provocative", but some things are worse than others. Congress formed the Taiwan Relations Act after Kissinger's dumb Communique that broke ties with ROC, and while China was angry and still is about the TRA, it doesn't do anything because it's US policy. US policy is something that belongs to the US and not China, and US policy will not cause China to attack Taiwan nor sanction the US - economic relations are so strong that this political bickering can't really affect it. But wait until 20 years from now and try it then.. China will have so many investments from the entire world it CAN say no to the US and get away with it.. it will overtake Taiwan and get away with it.
plus, trying to take US-China relations to a new level would most likely cause China to stop complaining about us providing arms to Taiwan and try to prevent the new idea--forming official diplomatic relations with Taiwan or just revoking the acknowledgement that "Taiwan is a part of China." even if it doesn't exactly work out, if the US takes this stand then China will have to try to stop that and quit bitching about the TRA. this is how gradual steps work. we've already given too much to China because they pretty much use this type of method. we're already stopped asking them to improve upon their human rights, Tibet, Hong Kong, and unfair international investment/trade policies and are defending our own turf about the TRA.
China is preparing for an attack, whether you would like to believe it or not. sure, they may suddenly turn around and say "hey Taiwan, nevermind about trying to take you over anymore.." but until that day, the Taiwanese have to live in this bubble, where only a few dots on the globe recognize it is a country, and any move but forward in democracy may lead to an attack. what does it matter if Taiwan even did legally belong to China? Americans talk so much about "free Tibet" but you know what, we can't because it is physically occupied by China. are we just going to sit here and keep yelling? no, we can ask the US to work on negotiations with China and create policies stating our goals in terms of the relationship with China.
why is it acceptable to ignore another country at the request of another? what if China were to tell other countries to end ties with the US to continue ties with China, and they did it? and, this scenario where it's possible for countries to depend on China more than the US is actually becoming possible.. is that also acceptable? we need to make a stand and create a model where all countries respect each other and don't establish relationships that involve the ignoring of another country's rights. we need to tell China this notion is unacceptable and we actually need to do it - recognize Taiwan, violating the deal made with China, and establish fair relationships with both countries. because it can happen, it's reasonable even to China, and it does take a strong place such as the US to make it happen.
i'm not requesting anything stupid or crazy. i don't want the US to get screwed over, i'm a US citizen. i did not say anything about war or embargo, or making China an enemy. the US just needs to clarify what its relationships with China and Taiwan. China takes anything and everything as "provocative", but some things are worse than others. Congress formed the Taiwan Relations Act after Kissinger's dumb Communique that broke ties with ROC, and while China was angry and still is about the TRA, it doesn't do anything because it's US policy. US policy is something that belongs to the US and not China, and US policy will not cause China to attack Taiwan nor sanction the US - economic relations are so strong that this political bickering can't really affect it. But wait until 20 years from now and try it then.. China will have so many investments from the entire world it CAN say no to the US and get away with it.. it will overtake Taiwan and get away with it.
plus, trying to take US-China relations to a new level would most likely cause China to stop complaining about us providing arms to Taiwan and try to prevent the new idea--forming official diplomatic relations with Taiwan or just revoking the acknowledgement that "Taiwan is a part of China." even if it doesn't exactly work out, if the US takes this stand then China will have to try to stop that and quit bitching about the TRA. this is how gradual steps work. we've already given too much to China because they pretty much use this type of method. we're already stopped asking them to improve upon their human rights, Tibet, Hong Kong, and unfair international investment/trade policies and are defending our own turf about the TRA.
China is preparing for an attack, whether you would like to believe it or not. sure, they may suddenly turn around and say "hey Taiwan, nevermind about trying to take you over anymore.." but until that day, the Taiwanese have to live in this bubble, where only a few dots on the globe recognize it is a country, and any move but forward in democracy may lead to an attack. what does it matter if Taiwan even did legally belong to China? Americans talk so much about "free Tibet" but you know what, we can't because it is physically occupied by China. are we just going to sit here and keep yelling? no, we can ask the US to work on negotiations with China and create policies stating our goals in terms of the relationship with China.
why is it acceptable to ignore another country at the request of another? what if China were to tell other countries to end ties with the US to continue ties with China, and they did it? and, this scenario where it's possible for countries to depend on China more than the US is actually becoming possible.. is that also acceptable? we need to make a stand and create a model where all countries respect each other and don't establish relationships that involve the ignoring of another country's rights. we need to tell China this notion is unacceptable and we actually need to do it - recognize Taiwan, violating the deal made with China, and establish fair relationships with both countries. because it can happen, it's reasonable even to China, and it does take a strong place such as the US to make it happen.
K1052
Elite Member
Giving full diplomatic recognition to Taiwan could very well put the US in the position of having to choose between Taiwan and China, if China made a military move (likely).
I seriously doubt the US would stand idly by while China turns the Taiwan's major cities into rubble and invades the island.
I seriously doubt the US would stand idly by while China turns the Taiwan's major cities into rubble and invades the island.
China already IS making a military move. don't you understand? recognizing Taiwan or not has nothing to do with China's plans to seize the island. plus, how is that a reason to start war? let's say person A claims he is the parent of B and needs to beat him to accept A's parenthood, and person C comes in and says no, A and B are not related.. is that going to cause A to lash out and beat B? A may get annoyed at C but you know what, A is already annoyed with C but does business with him anyway.
K1052
Elite Member
Full recognition would back the PRC into an internal political corner with no escape.
Our current relationship with Taiwan already has the implied threat that we would not take kindly to an aggressive attempt at reunification. I highly doubt China will make the first move, no matter how much noise they make.
China knows we are out there. They are not stupid enough to think that all of our military is tied up in the ME.
Dissipate
Diamond Member
Snowman: direct democracy might be a little better than representative democracy but it would still be an illigitimate institution. Why? Because you would still have millions of people with pre-conceived and uneducated notions forcefully imposing their will on peaceful individuals.
No, my plan for government would be to simply eliminate entire offices and departments until minarchy was achieved. After that, I would slowly but surely trim it down some more and hand over government functions to private firms (such as roads, police, fire and education) with the end goal being anarchy.
Also, see my signature for my very brief opinion of government.
It makes a whole world of difference. American itself went through a civil war and sacrificed millions to preserve the unification of the country. This is not about freedom, it is about preserving the nation.
Now I am not saying Taiwan really did belong to China. If that were the case, US and the rest of the world would have nothing to say about China-Taiwan issue. Today there is ambiguity, and it is that ambiguity that allows Taiwan to continue to have freedom and prosperity. It is that ambiguity that the rest of the world and America can claim that they are in the right to support Taiwan.
Your petition tries to destroy that ambiguity, and you are risking a lot by destroying that ambiguity.
I don't see the ambiguity in terms of legal claim over the island. China gave up Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity just before WW II. In the treaties following WW II, Japan relinquished its ownership of Taiwan. The only reason Chinese officials were even on the island at that time was because it was temporarily overseeing the island for the Allied Forces. Nobody said China was the new owner of Taiwan.
The only ambiguity is that deals made with the PRC "acknowledge China's claim that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China." It's like the United States acknowledging that Bob claims he owns India.
There isn't as much risk as you fear in telling China that the parts they own are part of China and Taiwan is Taiwan. China would have to deal with it or try to change US's mind by fulfilling other requests the US has made in China. And if China attacks early as opposed to later because of it, so be it. Taiwan needs to defend itself or submit to China, and that's that. The US can still help by supplying defensive arms or even send some troops along with Japan. If Taiwan has no support and submits, then there is another issue to deal with that is easier to justify because of China's act of war. Taiwan's freedom and prosperity is limited by other countries' unwillingness to renegotiate their One China Policies, because Taiwan is not allowed in the United Nations nor World Health Organization, it cannot make official treaties and deals with most other countries, and China continues to instill fear in the people. Without risk, there is no freedom.
The only ambiguity is that deals made with the PRC "acknowledge China's claim that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China." It's like the United States acknowledging that Bob claims he owns India.
There isn't as much risk as you fear in telling China that the parts they own are part of China and Taiwan is Taiwan. China would have to deal with it or try to change US's mind by fulfilling other requests the US has made in China. And if China attacks early as opposed to later because of it, so be it. Taiwan needs to defend itself or submit to China, and that's that. The US can still help by supplying defensive arms or even send some troops along with Japan. If Taiwan has no support and submits, then there is another issue to deal with that is easier to justify because of China's act of war. Taiwan's freedom and prosperity is limited by other countries' unwillingness to renegotiate their One China Policies, because Taiwan is not allowed in the United Nations nor World Health Organization, it cannot make official treaties and deals with most other countries, and China continues to instill fear in the people. Without risk, there is no freedom.
K1052
Elite Member
Taiwan was effectively (if not legally) ceded to the ROC at the end of WWII. It was originally ceded to Japan by Imperial China. After WWII the ROC lost the civil war to the Communists and the Nationalist government fled to the island. The question is: Does the PRC have a right to Taiwn as the ruling party of China?
IIRC, some claim that Taiwn actually reverted to being it's own country after Japan renounced ownership of the island and thus the PRC have no claim to it.
Japan renounced ownership of the island on two separate occasions. Once during the San Francisco peace conference on 9/8/1951, and because of the obscene of both ROC and PRC, the peace treaty did not designate the ownership of Taiwan to anyone. However, on 4/28/1952, Taipei and Japan signed a peace treaty and clearly designated the ownership of Taiwan to ROC. (Article 10)
Link to treaty
China did not gave up Taiwan freely, and not right before WW2. China ceded sovereignty over Taiwan during the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, way before WW2, as a result of a war against Japan. Since Japan took Taiwan by force, it is only reasonable that Taiwan is returned to the rightful owner after Japan lost the war.
There is no question that Taiwan belongs to China, but the ambiguity is which China? The ROC that Japan returned Taiwan to, or the PRC that now rules China now. Again, to say that Taiwan is a clear cut independent nation is just fooling yourself, and a notion that have absolutely no support in the international community.
China has modernized their military in the recent years. If you read Chinese history, you know that Chinese people are not the type to invade other nations. We even built a great wall to enclose ourselves. Why do they need to spend in military? To defend themselves from Russia, or Japan, or Vietnam? Those nations are very unlikely to start a war with China. Chinese top military target is clearly Taiwan. With all the preparation they have been doing, what makes you think they are just threatening when they say they will use force if Taiwan becomes independent.
Again, you live in a fantasy world if you think US or international community will send troops to defend Taiwan. China has the largest population with growing economy. Everyone in the world is trying to become a trade partner of China and get into the action. What can Taiwan offer in return if anyone send troops and take a hit economically. Last time I checked, it was also China that sits in UN with veto power, what do you think UN can do to protect Taiwan?
If Taiwanese are really united and stand up against China, there maybe a chance that Taiwan will win the freedom after a costly fight. But Taiwanese is not even united on this issue, or have a clue how to go about it. There are people talking about independence all day, but close their business and factories in Taiwan and move all jobs and investment to China. There are politicians talking real loud about independence, but have no clue on how to strengthen Taiwanese national defense. There are people like you talking about getting international support, but have no idea about international politics and blind to the fact that most nations are building close ties with China and only handful of nobody have diplomatic relationship with Taiwan. There is just no hope in getting into a bitter confrontation with China right now.
I think the only realistic chance Taiwan has is to play the waiting game. I believe China will not be ruled by a backward and brutal regime forever. As Chinese people become better off, and access to more information through technology, they will demand an open and democratic government. Only then will Taiwan have a chance to negotiate deals peacefully with China, and gain more acceptance in the international community without risking everything we have now.
Final note, the problem with people like you is you don't have a comprehensive plan on how to get Taiwanese people the freedom. You don't even have a clue that the freedom and the prosperity Taiwanese enjoy today is due to a delicate balance. All you do is keep on spreading false info to portion of Taiwanese who are less educate, and make them believe how China is not going to attack and how even if China attacks, the American will send their fleet to protect Taiwan. The actions of you and people like you is one of the biggest treat to the Taiwanese society.
bolido2000
Diamond Member
haha you spoke my mind 100% :beer:
EU is sticking even more with China. I remember that Jiang went to France and they even lighted the Eiffel tower RED. France also participated in war games with China. Is only the US who is backing up China. That's it. I agree the main problem is that half the taiwanese want independence and the other half no. There is internal separation even in Taiwan between the "true" taiwanese and the ones who came after the civil war. I've known so many taiwanese we came to the US or other countries because they don't want to do the military service. Is that the patriotism you are preaching? Taiwan has to stop dreaming about the US and take on an attitude like the Isrealis. Most I've know would be happy to die defending their country.
LongCoolMother
Diamond Member
yes, and that means you agree that if person B makes a direct move, person A is going to start beating the sh!t out of person B. while your idea is correct, that person C's recogniztion won't provoke person A all the way to action, you're forgetting the risk (which is a very real risk) that if person C were to make that move, it would only encourage person B to make the direct move and provoke action. im pretty sure you know one of the major reasons why taiwan is acting so *boldly* at this time is BECAUSE it feels like it has a major US backing. do you think taiwan would be making all this noise if the US weren't protecting them? while this may sound ironic, the US has to play its own cards- even if its not 100% on the lines of "anything for freedom" it has to pick its sides and its moves carefully as to not trigger any critical response from the mailand or the island. if it renounces the TRA and straight up supports taiwan independence, it would obviously send an enourmous green light to taiwan to go ahead with the movement. if this resulted in them making the move, it would undoubtedly provoke military action. of course, this is very unfavorable to every person-whether it is A, B, or C.
LongCoolMother
Diamond Member
finally, someone who agrees with the "waiting" plan. finally, someone agrees the chinese government is subsiding into something different.
i never said anything about Taiwan declaring independence if the US were to recognize and support self-determination. it's just better to make it clear to establish stronger ties with China to help it develop the way WE want it to develop and to help Taiwan develop a better attitude about China and the US. the main purpose of US recognizing Taiwan as a separate country would be to push China to negotiate with Taiwan because things are changing in the world--they wouldn't be able to keep telling everyone to ignore Taiwan because now, the world's leader is against the idea. others would easily follow suite.
how long are you going to "wait" for China to "improve"? it may move faster than we even imagine, but on the other hand, it may be improving on everything else BUT the Taiwan issue. the fact is no matter what China is, Taiwan is not a part of China and we can simply recognize that and firmly tell China that they need to peacefully talk to Taiwan without the need for "one country, two systems" as a requirement to talk.. instead of trying to get around this political BS.
why can't China just leave Taiwan alone? GLORY? shall all terrorists be allowed to kill for GLORY as well? terrorists think they are even more justified to kill themselves to hurt the US than China is.
and no, i am not saying China will not attack Taiwan if it declares independence. i keep emphasizing Taiwan's willingness to have peaceful negotiations with China, ok? if China does not budge on this and keeps working on its military it is simply bound to attack without allowing Taiwan to have a say if they are taken over. while you don't seem to care about these 22 million people, i'd like to think that our government does, as well as the other people in the world that are suffering. we can't prevent them all, but at least Taiwan, being a top economic country, has more potential for the US than others 😛
i fully support a "status quo" but i'd like to see the situation improve and am very afraid of China's threat becoming a reality by 2020. the indications are clear, and Taiwan may have to fight for its own existence within the next 15 years. Taiwan is not looking for a war, and if declaring independence will cause a war, it's not in Taiwan's best interest to have it. but why can't China accept negotiations without "one country, two systems" as a prerequisite? this is one of the things i believe the US can push more aggressively without risking anyone's death. the US also needs to push for faster reforms in China, because frankly, everyone's losing a lot of business to China because of their unethical policies (haven't read up on them, but i hear companies like Boeing had to close factories and set them up in China in order to sell things in China).
how long are you going to "wait" for China to "improve"? it may move faster than we even imagine, but on the other hand, it may be improving on everything else BUT the Taiwan issue. the fact is no matter what China is, Taiwan is not a part of China and we can simply recognize that and firmly tell China that they need to peacefully talk to Taiwan without the need for "one country, two systems" as a requirement to talk.. instead of trying to get around this political BS.
ok we have different perspectives on history. but it is absolutely clear that Taiwan is fully independent today. i am merely asking for the recognition of that fact.
why can't China just leave Taiwan alone? GLORY? shall all terrorists be allowed to kill for GLORY as well? terrorists think they are even more justified to kill themselves to hurt the US than China is.
and no, i am not saying China will not attack Taiwan if it declares independence. i keep emphasizing Taiwan's willingness to have peaceful negotiations with China, ok? if China does not budge on this and keeps working on its military it is simply bound to attack without allowing Taiwan to have a say if they are taken over. while you don't seem to care about these 22 million people, i'd like to think that our government does, as well as the other people in the world that are suffering. we can't prevent them all, but at least Taiwan, being a top economic country, has more potential for the US than others 😛
as i said before, if China attacks Taiwan, it's not the US's problem. it'd be nice, but Taiwan isn't counting on US and Japanese forces, they simply know it would be a great advantage. that is why Taiwan is grateful for the current arms deal and is pushing the US to supply even more and better defensive submarines. but if the US, China, and Taiwan can make an effort to avoid war whatsoever, wouldn't it be nice? what does China have to lose from even discussing with Taiwan about its future?
look here: yes, taiwan is in a great situation already, but it can simply be even better for taiwan, especially if it can have a say in the world or just obsevatory status in the UN. my comprehensive plan is very much dependent on China, and it is to convince China to recognize Taiwan is its own nation or people or whatever in order to negotiate what the two lands can do together in the future. comprehensive plans are impossible for situations like this. look at Iraq--set up a democracy? what a disaster. i'm not looking for anyone to invade and establish a new government on Taiwan or anything. Taiwan can take care of itself in this "status quo" situation, i'd just like to see it get its justice. you talk so much of China's claim over Taiwan in history, and it's a sad deal--claim or no claim, the people on Taiwan have already established and run their own system without China, so that must be respected! if we want to talk about historical claims, by all means, the US should return itself to Britain ASAP. the "rebel governments" on the province of New York and whatnot need to be destroyed -_- damn revolutionists who want to make their own decisions, huh.. they shouldn't be allowed to exist or be recognized. a war sholdn't and doesn't have to be necessary to establish separation and co-existence..
i fully support a "status quo" but i'd like to see the situation improve and am very afraid of China's threat becoming a reality by 2020. the indications are clear, and Taiwan may have to fight for its own existence within the next 15 years. Taiwan is not looking for a war, and if declaring independence will cause a war, it's not in Taiwan's best interest to have it. but why can't China accept negotiations without "one country, two systems" as a prerequisite? this is one of the things i believe the US can push more aggressively without risking anyone's death. the US also needs to push for faster reforms in China, because frankly, everyone's losing a lot of business to China because of their unethical policies (haven't read up on them, but i hear companies like Boeing had to close factories and set them up in China in order to sell things in China).
K1052
Elite Member
Your comparison to the US and Great Britain is invalid. The British signed the Treaty of Paris in 1783, in which they recognize the US as a sovereign nation. Thereby, all British claims on the territory are clearly void.
Rocking the boat (Taiwan) would be rather unwise at this point IMO. China will bluster on about Taiwan for years to come. Eventually the old PRC leadership will die and younger, more progressive political leaders will hopefully come to power. Then (again, hopefully) the situation could be resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.
Publicly defying China now on this issue is both reckless and stupid. It is like poking a stick into an open wound in their political mind, a reminder of what they failed to finish in the civil war.
Rocking the boat (Taiwan) would be rather unwise at this point IMO. China will bluster on about Taiwan for years to come. Eventually the old PRC leadership will die and younger, more progressive political leaders will hopefully come to power. Then (again, hopefully) the situation could be resolved to the satisfaction of both parties.
Publicly defying China now on this issue is both reckless and stupid. It is like poking a stick into an open wound in their political mind, a reminder of what they failed to finish in the civil war.
peace treaty.. will that ever happen with China's "all or none" attitude? i believe there is a way to get that going. but shouldn't the PRC return the land to the ROC? i'm not aware of any treaty there, only deals were made with other countries such as PRC admitted into the UN as the representative of China. you say Taiwan was given up to Japan by force, blah blah blah, yet China was given up to the PRC by force as well. who's right, who's wrong, it doesn't matter. the fact is that today, Taiwan and China are separate and sovereign, and China needs to quit challenging this issue; the US should take a step in helping China accept the present.. we are all "hoping" China will change, but there is the flip side where we hope they don't attack as well. there are indications from both sides, and the US does not need to be involved in the protection of Taiwan, it can just quit "playing politics" and be honest and defend its beliefs for once.
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