Help selecting speakers for home theater system

[Soccerman06]

I'll entertain you. Why do you suppose it was a silly question?

I realize not everyone knows the difference between a ribbon and a tweeter and whatnot, but the name itself describes the difference. Floorstanding/tower vs bookshelf speaker are completely different

 

[Howard]

I realize not everyone knows the difference between a ribbon and a tweeter and whatnot, but the name itself describes the difference. Floorstanding/tower vs bookshelf speaker are completely different

I don't have any problem with a stand per se, but floor standing speakers are designed with the stand in mind when it comes to sound reproduction, whereas the bookshelf design might require some form of compensation.

So if a bookshelf speaker is fully compensated for baffle step, what is then the difference between it and a floorstander?

Another question for you: what is the difference between an apple and a fruit?

 

[PaneInTheGlass]

The RX6 should be had for $1250 , Monitor 9 should be $1000, not sure about the T6 tho but it seems high. For towers only.

Edit: Pro reviews seem to love the BX and RX line from Monitor, more so than paradigm and psb. I havent had a chance to listen to the new stuff thats coming out in a few days, each of the 3 you listed are releasing a new model for each series. So you could get a previous model year cheaper if you wait till Christmas for all the products to be shipped and put in store as that is what Im planning to do.

I had the Paradigm Monitor 9's at $1200, the Monitor Audio RX6's at $1250, and the PSB Image T6's at $1300 per pair for the towers, but as I say, I suspect I'd be purchasing them for less. I knew that Paradigm was set to release ver. 7 of the Monitor 7 line, I didn't know Monitor and PSB were also on the verge of a launch.

Comparing the Paradigm ver. 6's to the ver. 7's, I'd say I'm more interested in the newer model. In general, though, I'd say that the Paradigms are at the bottom of my list. It seems their design criteria was to get the best sound out of the smallest package, and made tradeoffs accordingly. Not that they sound bad, but for me, size is not the issue, so it wouldn't make as much sense to buy speakers who's main selling point is a smaller profile. I should also note that I was rather put-off by the salesman of this particular store. This has definitely colored my opinion of the Paradigms, as this is the only nearby store I could find that sells them.

I couldn't find any pricing info for the Monitor Audio BX line, which is indicative of the more critical problem of not finding anyplace that was selling it. If the internet reviews are to be believed (which, of course, they aren't), then I'd say that the RX line represents the best price/performance ratio of any speaker on the market. I've yet to come across a single negative review, and the most consistent complaint about these speakers is that the plinths look weird. I was looking to have the 5.0 system priced at <$2000, but if there's a newer version on the horizon, it might be worth seeing if I can get an even better deal. Of course, that's contrasted with the opportunity to get the latest revision of arguably best speaker value on the market.

The PSB's are another highly respected option, but it's generally conceded that more expensive options (i.e. Monitor RX's) can be a better way to go. What I like about this series is that of my three selections, this one seems to offer the best off-axis performance. This would be good for accommodating a large crowd (i.e. parties), standing or sitting orientations (i.e. gaming), and listening from various locations (i.e. cleaning house).

A lot of this is dependent on how the demos go. I expect that I will be able to demo the PSB T6's and the Paradigm 9's. I might be able to demo the Monitor RX6's, but if the PSB's and Paradigms disappoint, I may just buy them on spec.

Thank you for the input. My misconception was that you had recently purchased your speakers, not that you were still looking to buy. Out of curiosity, which speakers are you looking at most closely, and what prices do you have in mind? Also, what kind of setup are you looking for (2.0, 3.1, etc.)?

 

[PaneInTheGlass]

So, I was reading up on the T6's, and came across an interesting quote.

From SoundStage's review of PSB Image T6 speakers by Philip Beaudette, July 2010 [source]:

Soundstage depth aside, what struck me most about the tallest tower in the PSB’s new Image series was its bass. It was abundant. In my review of the Amphion Argon3, I had been so impressed by its output down low that I’d wondered if I even needed a floorstanding speaker to get full-sounding bass. The T6 reminded me very quickly of the limitations of bookshelf speakers, even ones as good as the Argon3. As amazing as those Finnish speakers’ low-end output was, they were no match for the sheer power of the T6s, which seemed to add two doses of oomph to the music.

 

[Soccerman06]

I had the Paradigm Monitor 9's at $1200, the Monitor Audio RX6's at $1250, and the PSB Image T6's at $1300 per pair for the towers, but as I say, I suspect I'd be purchasing them for less. I knew that Paradigm was set to release ver. 7 of the Monitor 7 line, I didn't know Monitor and PSB were also on the verge of a launch.

Comparing the Paradigm ver. 6's to the ver. 7's, I'd say I'm more interested in the newer model. In general, though, I'd say that the Paradigms are at the bottom of my list. It seems their design criteria was to get the best sound out of the smallest package, and made tradeoffs accordingly. Not that they sound bad, but for me, size is not the issue, so it wouldn't make as much sense to buy speakers who's main selling point is a smaller profile. I should also note that I was rather put-off by the salesman of this particular store. This has definitely colored my opinion of the Paradigms, as this is the only nearby store I could find that sells them.

I couldn't find any pricing info for the Monitor Audio BX line, which is indicative of the more critical problem of not finding anyplace that was selling it. If the internet reviews are to be believed (which, of course, they aren't), then I'd say that the RX line represents the best price/performance ratio of any speaker on the market. I've yet to come across a single negative review, and the most consistent complaint about these speakers is that the plinths look weird. I was looking to have the 5.0 system priced at <$2000, but if there's a newer version on the horizon, it might be worth seeing if I can get an even better deal. Of course, that's contrasted with the opportunity to get the latest revision of arguably best speaker value on the market.

The PSB's are another highly respected option, but it's generally conceded that more expensive options (i.e. Monitor RX's) can be a better way to go. What I like about this series is that of my three selections, this one seems to offer the best off-axis performance. This would be good for accommodating a large crowd (i.e. parties), standing or sitting orientations (i.e. gaming), and listening from various locations (i.e. cleaning house).

A lot of this is dependent on how the demos go. I expect that I will be able to demo the PSB T6's and the Paradigm 9's. I might be able to demo the Monitor RX6's, but if the PSB's and Paradigms disappoint, I may just buy them on spec.

Thank you for the input. My misconception was that you had recently purchased your speakers, not that you were still looking to buy. Out of curiosity, which speakers are you looking at most closely, and what prices do you have in mind? Also, what kind of setup are you looking for (2.0, 3.1, etc.)?

BX5 towers are $750/pair read here

http://media.avguide.com/home_theater_buyers_guide_2011.pdf (has paradigm monitor 11 and monitor bx5)
http://media.avguide.com/2011_Loudspeakers_Buyers_Guide.pdf (has psb t6)

Seems as though they prefer the monitor bx5 over the paradigm. I do agree with the rx6 is an overall better speaker though. One thing you really need to look at is off axis performance which can be done easily enough, just turn the speaker (or move around) to an appropriate angle. Ive noticed the Paradigm monitor 9v6 had ~130degree so Id hope that the others have similar off axis performance.

Oh I had been looking for a long time, just bought a denon 3311 on sale (or was it 3312? I cant remember lol) which reminds me it arrives tomorrow. Ive been looking at the 3 you are now actually. My budget doesnt really exist but if I had to put a number on it, I would have to say: $1500 for towers, $600 for sub which I already bought, and whatever strikes my interest for a center (probably whatever center goes with the towers) and surrounds. Worse case Ill just use my current DT center and surrounds and use my old system for music in the basement. Eventually Ill build this out to a 7.1 (7.2 maybe) but Im not in any rush.

Howard Im not going to argue with you.

 

[Howard]

Howard Im not going to argue with you.

Is it now my turn to post a ridiculous picture?

 

[Soccerman06]

Is it now my turn to post a ridiculous picture?

You just like the way my voice sounds in your head while you read my posts.

 

[Howard]

You just like the way my voice sounds in your head while you read my posts.

Yes, exactly like the annoying idiot who butts in when it isn't necessary.

Before you get all nasty on me, just remember that there's no need to argue.

 

[Soccerman06]

Yes, exactly like the annoying idiot who butts in when it isn't necessary.

Before you get all nasty on me, just remember that there's no need to argue.

Atleast your partially right, there is no point in arguing with you.

 

[Howard]

Atleast your partially right, there is no point in arguing with you.

Try again when you've grown up a little.

 

[Exterous]

So, I was reading up on the T6's, and came across an interesting quote.

From SoundStage's review of PSB Image T6 speakers by Philip Beaudette, July 2010 [source]:

The PSB speakers do indeed have a great deal of bass to them. I have the T55s and their extension covers most of your main stream music aside from Rap. (IIRC the T65s were generally reviewed more poorly than the T55s as they had too much bass and tended to be boomy. When PSB redid their line they chose to make the T6 closer to the T55 than the T65s). I would definately still get a sub - esp for home theater use. I can recommend the Rythmik FV12. Just got mine and it has fit in perfectly (Outloaw LFM-1 Plus was also a strong contender)

I did get a chance to compare them to similarly priced Monitor Audios and I much preferred the PSB speakers. With them releasing a new line you might be able to get a great deal on closeouts. I was able to get my T55s at a very reduced price. FWIW the PSB speakers had the best sound (To me) of the ones I listened to (I don't think I had a chance to listen to the Paradigms though)

Also - FWIW saturdayaudio.com is a reseller of both Monitor Audio and PSB speakers. I went through them for my PSB and had excellent luck as well as being FAR cheaper than any of the local resellers. I don't remember what shipping was but it wasn't bad. They currently have the T6s in B stock for $1040 a pair. Their only downside is that they aren't the best at updating their website so they might have some options not listed

 

[PaneInTheGlass]

Ive been looking at the 3 you are now actually. My budget doesnt really exist but if I had to put a number on it, I would have to say: $1500 for towers, $600 for sub which I already bought, and whatever strikes my interest for a center (probably whatever center goes with the towers) and surrounds.

Not too surprising, considering I made judicious use of the list you posted earlier in the thread. Actually, I was asking what you think you would spend if you were to purchase these towers, that is to say, what would be a reasonable market price, as opposed to an MSRP?

Thanks for the links, that was very comprehensive. I'm still going through them, there's a lot of interesting info in there.

I found a nice analysis of the PSB T6's over at stereophile, which helps highlight one of my main concerns: the T6's are rated at 6 Ohms, where my receiver is rated at 8. This is a concern because a) my Onkyo receiver already has a reputation as a space heater, and b) as the measurements show, the impedance is closer to 4 ohms in the 100~800Hz range. IDK if this would cause any major problems, but it's certainly something to consider.

A nice thing about the Monitor Audio's is the inclusion of the port plug to accommodate a wider range of listening environments.

What I like about the PSB's and the MA's (silver and bronze), is that I consistently (darn near universally in the case of the latter) come across the phrase "Out-performs more expensive models". In the case of the Paradigms, it's usually a more restrained "Is clearly a leader in its class". Again, nothing against the Paradigms, but my impression is that they merely glow, where both the PSB and MA's shine. If I were forced to pick right now I'd say I'd go with the PSB's for off-axis response, the MA's for pure fidelity, and the Paradigms for appearance. Fortunately, I don't have to pick right now, and still have some time to mull it over.

I haven't really been able to find any info on the new PSB's and MA's coming down the pike. Are they expected to be major leaps forward, or more of a nudge in the right direction?

I will definitely be getting a sub. I'll check out the Rythmik and the Outlaw, and I still like the BIC F12 posted at the start of the thread. I haven't really started shopping yet, but one feature I would really like to have is a triple pre-set for movies, music and games w/ either top-mounted controls, a wired, or a wireless remote. I'd almost prefer a wired remote so I wouldn't have to worry about line-of-sight.

 

[Howard]

I found a nice analysis of the PSB T6's over at stereophile, which helps highlight one of my main concerns: the T6's are rated at 6 Ohms, where my receiver is rated at 8. This is a concern because a) my Onkyo receiver already has a reputation as a space heater, and b) as the measurements show, the impedance is closer to 4 ohms in the 100~800Hz range. IDK if this would cause any major problems, but it's certainly something to consider.

Nothing wrong with Stereophile's reviews per se, especially since they started including measurements, but be careful for editorial bias, especially if the product under review happens to be made by a company that takes out ads in their magazine/website.

I should say that that particular review doesn't have any noticeable slant.

 

[Exterous]

I found a nice analysis of the PSB T6's over at stereophile, which helps highlight one of my main concerns: the T6's are rated at 6 Ohms, where my receiver is rated at 8. This is a concern because a) my Onkyo receiver already has a reputation as a space heater, and b) as the measurements show, the impedance is closer to 4 ohms in the 100~800Hz range. IDK if this would cause any major problems, but it's certainly something to consider.

I have the Onkyo 806 receiver for my T55s. It can get a little warm when driving the speakers at loud volumes but I have never had an issue with it in terms of performance or heat. (Just make sure it actually has space above the receiver to vent) A brief looks shows the 609 gives up about 5 watts per channel compared to the 806 so I would think the performance would be comperable.

I will definitely be getting a sub. I'll check out the Rythmik and the Outlaw, and I still like the BIC F12 posted at the start of the thread. I haven't really started shopping yet, but one feature I would really like to have is a triple pre-set for movies, music and games w/ either top-mounted controls, a wired, or a wireless remote. I'd almost prefer a wired remote so I wouldn't have to worry about line-of-sight.

How much you look into those might depend on how you use your system. I watch a fair amount of movies but music is also really important to me. I found the Polk 505 to be too boomy for my tastes in how it handled music. Reviews on the Emotiva Ultra 12 sub (and energy as well IIRC) were very positive for musicallity but the graphs showed a fast drop off for low end frequencies typically associated with LFE in movies. My Velodyne VRP1200 sub already suffered from this. (I want to feel explosions in my chest damnit)

The $500-600 sub range (Don't forget HSU and Epik) seemed to be the first range of subs that would offer the musicallity I wanted with the low end extension I wanted for movies and I finally feel I have a system that can consistantly stretch from the top frequencies all the way down to the bottom for both music and movies.(Something I didn't get with my Velodyne or the Polk) If you don't really care about one or the other you could probably stick in the $250-300 range.

 

[Howard]

How much you look into those might depend on how you use your system. I watch a fair amount of movies but music is also really important to me. I found the Polk 505 to be too boomy for my tastes in how it handled music.

Out of curiosity, did you measure the in-room response of the 505?

 

[Exterous]

Out of curiosity, did you measure the in-room response of the 505?

Heh - you would hit on that sore point. Sadly - no. I bought a microphone a while ago with the intent on measuring for acoustical panels and any new audio equipment* I dropped a 2x4 on it when I was building the shelving for the basement. I have only the subjective thoughts of myself and the friend who brought it over for me to listen to.

*(I have a bunch of mineral wool waiting in the garage for a new microphone)

 

[Howard]

Heh - you would hit on that sore point. Sadly - no. I bought a microphone a while ago with the intent on measuring for acoustical panels and any new audio equipment* I dropped a 2x4 on it when I was building the shelving for the basement. I have only the subjective thoughts of myself and the friend who brought it over for me to listen to.

*(I have a bunch of mineral wool waiting in the garage for a new microphone)

I made my own from the plans here:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sys_test.htm#Mic

Costs less than $20 to build (depending on what parts you use) and works amazingly well as a general purpose omni mic. All you need is this and a PC of some sort that can run HOLMImpulse. I literally downloaded it and had my in-room response within 15 minutes.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/equipment-tools/150356-linkwitz-mods-panasonic-wm61a-mic.html this may help; I destroyed my first capsule and you should be able to get it on your first try if you use copper foil with conductive adhesive

 

[Exterous]

I made my own from the plans here:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/sys_test.htm#Mic

Costs less than $20 to build (depending on what parts you use) and works amazingly well as a general purpose omni mic. All you need is this and a PC of some sort that can run HOLMImpulse. I literally downloaded it and had my in-room response within 15 minutes.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/equipment-tools/150356-linkwitz-mods-panasonic-wm61a-mic.html this may help; I destroyed my first capsule and you should be able to get it on your first try if you use copper foil with conductive adhesive

Now that is very interesting. Does it need a calibration file for RoomEQ wizard?

 

[Howard]

Now that is very interesting. Does it need a calibration file for RoomEQ wizard?

As far as I know, the mic capsule is flat to at least 10 kHz.

 

[Soccerman06]

Not too surprising, considering I made judicious use of the list you posted earlier in the thread. Actually, I was asking what you think you would spend if you were to purchase these towers, that is to say, what would be a reasonable market price, as opposed to an MSRP?

Thanks for the links, that was very comprehensive. I'm still going through them, there's a lot of interesting info in there.

I found a nice analysis of the PSB T6's over at stereophile, which helps highlight one of my main concerns: the T6's are rated at 6 Ohms, where my receiver is rated at 8. This is a concern because a) my Onkyo receiver already has a reputation as a space heater, and b) as the measurements show, the impedance is closer to 4 ohms in the 100~800Hz range. IDK if this would cause any major problems, but it's certainly something to consider.

A nice thing about the Monitor Audio's is the inclusion of the port plug to accommodate a wider range of listening environments.

What I like about the PSB's and the MA's (silver and bronze), is that I consistently (darn near universally in the case of the latter) come across the phrase "Out-performs more expensive models". In the case of the Paradigms, it's usually a more restrained "Is clearly a leader in its class". Again, nothing against the Paradigms, but my impression is that they merely glow, where both the PSB and MA's shine. If I were forced to pick right now I'd say I'd go with the PSB's for off-axis response, the MA's for pure fidelity, and the Paradigms for appearance. Fortunately, I don't have to pick right now, and still have some time to mull it over.

I haven't really been able to find any info on the new PSB's and MA's coming down the pike. Are they expected to be major leaps forward, or more of a nudge in the right direction?

I will definitely be getting a sub. I'll check out the Rythmik and the Outlaw, and I still like the BIC F12 posted at the start of the thread. I haven't really started shopping yet, but one feature I would really like to have is a triple pre-set for movies, music and games w/ either top-mounted controls, a wired, or a wireless remote. I'd almost prefer a wired remote so I wouldn't have to worry about line-of-sight.

Ended up buying the PSB T6 and C5, for a flat $1500, $200 off msrp. Like I said before the new psb image T6 model came out in sept, and a new C5 is coming out this weekend. Well more like my retailer is getting a demo unit to tear apart and look through whats now. From I was told, we know that the speakers in the center are changing, for better or worse and moving away from the same speakers as the current T6/C5 (midrange/base woofers are the same in both models). Luckily my audio guy is going to tell me if something was changed, and will let me keep my price even if the price rises (I assume the price goes down I dont get a discount) and either upgrade or not based on what he thinks.

I dont know if you have bought anything or not, but I had trouble even finding a dealer to demo a unit and ended up buying without listening to them because there are no demo units in the minneapolis or rochester area. I did however get to listen to a PSB reference gold something and was impressed. I also got to listen to some sychronus one towers and two center, and omg if I had a spare $3300 (almost 7k msrp) lying around I would have bought those three right then and there but I dont have that kind of money to spend on speakers. Necroing an oldish thread too.

 

[PaneInTheGlass]

Nah, not too old. I've been caught up in the holidays myself and haven't had a chance to follow up.

I too decided to go with the PSB's, and I too am going in blind (or should I say deaf). The first speakers I listened to were the PSB Alpha bookshelves, and they were very impressive. They had a breath and depth to the soundstage that I simply couldn't appreciate at the time. Just when I was finishing up my demo, the storeguy said "Hey, you want me to turn on the center channel?" The punchline is I would have sworn to my dying day that the center speaker had been there the whole time.

Next I listened to the Paradigm Monitor 7's (or 9's, I forget which) just after the launch of the new series. I was very disappointed in them, but for perfectly explicable reasons. I was not impressed with the bass response, but from what I understand, these were brand-new speakers, so I suspect they weren't broken in. They had a terribly flat soundstage, in that everything was either right-channel or left-channel, but that could be because of sub-optimal placement; I didn't exactly go hunting for the sweet spot. Basically, I was underwhelmed with their performance, but I'm attributing that more to preconceptions, rather than an actual performance deficit.

Finally I did get to hear the Monitor Audio RX6's, but I didn't get the chance to listen to them critically with my demo disc. The showroom was pretty crowded, and they had Avatar playing on a 90+" screen. I wasn't about to get in the way of that.

In the end, I went with the PSB's because they were sold locally from people with whom I felt comfortable doing business. I'm planning on getting the T6's, but am unsure if I should pair them with a C4 or a C5. The odd thing is that on the spec sheet, the T6's and C4's have a crossover of 2.2 kHz, whereas the C5 (as well as everything else in the Image line) has a crossover of 1.8 kHz. So I'm torn between going with the larger driver or the matching crossover.

I did get the Onkyo TX-NR709, that came in recently, and I picked up some 14-guage speaker wire and ordered some banana plugs, so things are starting to come together. I'll probably have everything up and running in the next two weeks or so. I still need to pick out a sub (the speaker guy recommended REL), and potentially some surrounds (I was planning to get matching surrounds, but I'm starting to second-guess that decision), but somehow, that seems less daunting now that I have a start.

 

[Exterous]

Congrats on your guy's purchases and I hope you love your PSBs as much as I love mine! I haven't ever compared their two center options so all I can say on that front is that I ended up going with the larger driver on my setup (The C60 at the time instead of the C40) and it blends seamlessly

You don't need to worry too much about matching the surrounds

As for the sub - whats your budget? HSU, Epik, Rythmik, Outlaw, Energy, Emotiva and BIC come to mind as some heavily recommended ones. Below $400 you'll need to know if HT (HSU, BIC) or music (Energy, Emotiva) is more important. (Musical subs typically sacrifice the low end range more often found in movies for more accurate bass reporduction typically preferred for music) $500-600 gets you some very very nice offerings from HSU, Rythmik and Outlaw that will do both very well

Edit: It seems I already gave the same sub advice in this thread At least its good to know that I am fairly consistent

 

[Soccerman06]

Onkyo is a decent brand, however I just dont feel comfortable with their reliability. Hopefully you bought locally and can exchange if you have an issue. Since psb runs at 4 ohm, it may cause the onkyo to run hotter and possibly fail(?).

Like I said in my previous post, the c5 was getting a revision done and they were changing the speakers in some way. Be aware of this if you go and demo the centers and know which one your buying.

I bought a HSU vtf-3 mk4 over the weekend and itll get here sometime in the next few weeks. I was recommended Velodyne, Epik, Earthquake, Sunfire, SVS (the local place never heard of HSU, but knew of SVS wtf?) and a few others but after looking at all the reviews in my price range, it seems HSU is one of the best as the lowest price.

 

[Exterous]

Onkyo is a decent brand, however I just dont feel comfortable with their reliability. Hopefully you bought locally and can exchange if you have an issue. Since psb runs at 4 ohm, it may cause the onkyo to run hotter and possibly fail(?).

Obviously this is anecdotal evidence but my Onkyo 806 has been running my PSBs for 3 years without issue. It gets warm but not uncomfortable to the touch (My Comcast DVR runs hotter) I don't know if there is a difference in compenents from the 806 to the 709 though