Help me with squats

[KIAman]

Update 9/25/2012: So I thought I was back to 305 and had my wife film me but taking a look at the video, I don't look like I'm going deep enough. Maybe it was the angle (she was strait behind me) but it didn't look like my butt made it past my knees. When I ask other guys to look at my form, they swear it goes down below my knees. I'm still not sure. With the bar lower, it looked like I went down far enough but this new bar position is either tricking my eyes or my body.

I tried going lower with just the bar but I'm almost to the point my calves touch my hamstrings. Thoughts?!?

Update 8/28/2012: Pain free squat day yesterday!
So the first thing I did was widen my grip on the bar so my middle finger was around the barbell rings which helped to rotate my wrist from being slightly under the bar, to hanging over the bar. Hard to keep my shoulders tight in this position but this can be trained with more back work.

Second thing I did was to raise the bar position just slightly so almost a halfway between lowbar/highbar squat position.

I had to deload to 295 because I am not used to the new bar position and kept tipping forward at 325 so deloading to 295 helped to force me to relearn my balance. I found that I have bad ankle flexibility so I will work on that to not tip forward.

Thanks all, I will keep this up and report when I get back to 325!


So, I'm finally up to doing 3x5x325lbs squats but I'm failing this weight lately not because of lack of strength, but because the bar is slipping off my back putting a HUGE strain on my arms.

I have my grip narrow enough that I get a good squeeze on my back but even then, I don't have enough back muscle to hold it in place. I literally have to squeeze the bar against my back with my arm strength and now my arms are killing me.

Any tips on how to prevent the bar from slipping down my back and destroying my arms? This is effectively killing my squat gains.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Are you squatting high bar or low bar? Could you perhaps have someone take a picture of the bar position on your back?

 

[KIAman]

Low bar. It is sitting about an inch below the top of my shoulder muscles. I'll try to get someone to take a pic next time I'm in the gym.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Low bar. It is sitting about an inch below the top of my shoulder muscles. I'll try to get someone to take a pic next time I'm in the gym.

You may have it too low. I only say this because I had the same exact problem. I put the bar as low as I could because it made it easier for me to actually squat the weight. But, as I progressed, I had more difficulty keeping the bar on my shoulders as a result. I'd say improper low bar form could be your problem (as people tend to start in too low of a position). Check yourself out and try to position the bar a little higher on you (I let mine rest on the traps as it starts to go more horizontal). I haven't had any problems since. I'd probably consider it between a low bar and high bar rack though.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Are your elbows up in the air so that your Humorous bone is close to parallel with the ground?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humerus

It takes a little getting used to, but with low bar squat, learn to place the bar proeprly with a lighter weight. Take this with a grain of salt: If you can't properly hold the bar on your back with 325 pounds, you can not squat 325 pounds with proper form. It could be lack of stabalizer muscle strength or some other issue. Deload till you get form worked out then work back to 325 in 5 pound increments.

lastly, read this:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/squat_rippetoe.pdf

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Are your elbows up in the air so that your Humorous bone is close to parallel with the ground?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humerus

It takes a little getting used to, but with low bar squat, learn to place the bar proeprly with a lighter weight. Take this with a grain of salt: If you can't properly hold the bar on your back with 325 pounds, you can not squat 325 pounds with proper form. It could be lack of stabalizer muscle strength or some other issue. Deload till you get form worked out then work back to 325 in 5 pound increments.

lastly, read this:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/squat_rippetoe.pdf

The humerus isn't supposed to be nearly parallel to the ground - more like 45 degrees. With your shoulder in that position, you would have very poor leverage an you'd be winching the weight forward into your neck, changing the torque demands. While I agree this could be playing a role, you are suggesting an excessive correction.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

SC,

Close to parallel is an exaggeration I suppose.

I re-skimmed that lifting with your ass article I linked. I think your 45 degree statement is better than my parallel.

OP, does the bar you are using have center knurl? It should.

Starting hand position is also important. The wrong angle will cause the bar to roll down ones back slightly due to mechanical disadvantage in the wrists.

I know i read it somewhere and it is the way I do things, but i use an open grip with my hands, not a closed grip.

 

[Malfeas]

I had a similar predicament once. I switched to high bar squats with a more vertical torso, no more bar sliding or shoulder pain. I just do more deadlifts to compensate for the decrease in posterior work.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I had a similar predicament once. I switched to high bar squats with a more vertical torso, no more bar sliding or shoulder pain. I just do more deadlifts to compensate for the decrease in posterior work.

I definitely think this should be a last ditch effort. I've noticed that almost everyone who has difficulty with a low bar squat either have their hands places poorly or don't have proper shoulder mobility. If you've got both and it's not working, then maybe you can start high bar. I like low bar a lot better though for overall strength gains.

 

[KIAman]

I also notice I sweat like a pig when doing squats so my shoulder gets slippery. Anybody ever powder their backs or should the sweat not even matter?

I keep my hand open and position my hands just right inside the rings on the barbell. My elbows are just around 45 degree angle from the ground.

My first 2-3 reps are fine. The final reps are when I can feel the bar slipping down my back slightly then I instinctively push up on the bar with my hands, thus killing my biceps once I finish my final rep. It hurts enough that it takes about 3 seconds to take my hands off the bar once I rack the weight.

The pain gets bad enough that I can't do rows because of the bicep pain.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I also notice I sweat like a pig when doing squats so my shoulder gets slippery. Anybody ever powder their backs or should the sweat not even matter?

I keep my hand open and position my hands just right inside the rings on the barbell. My elbows are just around 45 degree angle from the ground.

My first 2-3 reps are fine. The final reps are when I can feel the bar slipping down my back slightly then I instinctively push up on the bar with my hands, thus killing my biceps once I finish my final rep. It hurts enough that it takes about 3 seconds to take my hands off the bar once I rack the weight.

The pain gets bad enough that I can't do rows because of the bicep pain.

Your grip is within the knurling of the bar? I'm a small guy and my grip is ~2in outside the inner knurling (that's the thumb with my thumb-over-bar position). That might be something to change up. I get pretty sweaty too. I always wear a normal t-shirt 'cause squatting in a sleeveless shirt ruins me. That could contribute, but I'm not sure chalk on top of a shirt would help. Try the wider grip - it gives you less mechanical disadvantage and you can drive the weight into your back with your pecs and lats better.

 

[surfsatwerk]

My shoulder flexibility is crap I usually have my grip about an inch inside the rack.

 

[blackdogdeek]

i'm 5'6" and keep my index fingers on the outer smooth circle thing.

 

[Malfeas]

I also notice I sweat like a pig when doing squats so my shoulder gets slippery. Anybody ever powder their backs or should the sweat not even matter?

I keep my hand open and position my hands just right inside the rings on the barbell. My elbows are just around 45 degree angle from the ground.

My first 2-3 reps are fine. The final reps are when I can feel the bar slipping down my back slightly then I instinctively push up on the bar with my hands, thus killing my biceps once I finish my final rep. It hurts enough that it takes about 3 seconds to take my hands off the bar once I rack the weight.

The pain gets bad enough that I can't do rows because of the bicep pain.

Again that is similar to what I experienced. One time after a heavy low bar squat session, my elbows/biceps hurt so much I couldn't grip anything. I couldn't even get my house keys out of my pocket to unlock my apartment door. I had to knock on my neighbors door and ask them to unlock it for me. Imagine how awkward that conversation was "Can you please reach in to my pocket and pull out my keys then unlock my front door? Thanks".

I really struggled with low bar squats for about a year, I was determined to fix my errors and make it work. I tried using all variations of wide and narrow hand positions on the bar but none helped. It wasn't an issue of shoulder mobility as I have always been a very flexible person, I can squat with my hands touching my shoulders or out touching the ends of the bar, both caused intense pain. My determination cost me about a years worth of progress on all lifts, my bench and OHP declined, I couldn't do chinups or powercleans anymore. My squat suffered also because I had to keep lowering the weight as my elbows got worse. About the only thing I could do was deadlifts when I got my grip back.

I don't think there is a detriment to using a high bar squat over a low bar squat, just add an extra set or two to your deadlift. I really like to work up to heavy sets of 3X3 instead of 5's, I find the lower reps helps prevent fatigue to my lower back.

My only suggestions on using a high bar squat is to not do the olympic dive bomb into the bottom position, but use a controlled slower descent. And to use pause squats on your warmup sets, it really helps loosen up your hips and helps imprint the more vertical back position in to your muscle memory.

 

[mchammer187]

I had a problem too with shoulder flexibility. Once I had the proper position my left shoulder/ lat would actually go numb and while I wasn't injured it induced weakness on my left side that destroyed my bench press (for that day).

My solution was buying PVC pipe and doing a combination of shoulder dislocates and just holding my hands closer and closer in the low bar squat position pretty much everyday until it felt normal.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

KIA,

From what you said in your last post, do you notice that your hands have rotated when you get to reps 4,5 relative to 1,2,3?

I had similar issues and it had everything to do with hand position changes as my wrist muscles fatigued. I'll try to check my form later to see where I put my hands.

Let's talk Olympic bars ..
The starting points for where center and outer knurling depend on individual bar design. Most bars have grip marks though. Two marks exist. One at 32" and another at 36". Some bars just have one, some have both. I forget what the 32" and 36" marks represent. They are standard marks though. All bars should have them on the same location. For bench press, I always have my ring fingers on the 32" marks. One finger left/right will target slightly different muscles.

KIA, relative to these marks, where do you place your hands? Do you have your hands straight relative to the forearm?

 

[KIAman]

... Try the wider grip - it gives you less mechanical disadvantage and you can drive the weight into your back with your pecs and lats better.

I tried wider grip before but all it did was make my back not as tight and the bar really started slipping like crazy. To fix this, I put my hands closer and that helped a lot.

I don't think there is a detriment to using a high bar squat over a low bar squat, just add an extra set or two to your deadlift. I really like to work up to heavy sets of 3X3 instead of 5's, I find the lower reps helps prevent fatigue to my lower back.

My only suggestions on using a high bar squat is to not do the olympic dive bomb into the bottom position, but use a controlled slower descent. And to use pause squats on your warmup sets, it really helps loosen up your hips and helps imprint the more vertical back position in to your muscle memory.

Thanks for the advice. If I can't figure this out, I will go with your suggestion.

The only reason why I went with low bar is because when I first started squatting, I tried high bar and it my knees and quads burned a lot but doing low bar, my hamstrings, glutes and back burned a lot but my knees were barely warm.

I've never had knee issues in my life and I didn't want to risk getting them from doing high bar squats so I stuck with low bar.

I had a problem too with shoulder flexibility. Once I had the proper position my left shoulder/ lat would actually go numb and while I wasn't injured it induced weakness on my left side that destroyed my bench press (for that day).

My solution was buying PVC pipe and doing a combination of shoulder dislocates and just holding my hands closer and closer in the low bar squat position pretty much everyday until it felt normal.

That sounds like a pinched nerve. I don't get pain isolated one side at all. Both my arms are equally destroyed. I do a lot of shoulder dislocations already and they actually helped my bench press more than anything, LOL.

KIA,

From what you said in your last post, do you notice that your hands have rotated when you get to reps 4,5 relative to 1,2,3?

I had similar issues and it had everything to do with hand position changes as my wrist muscles fatigued. I'll try to check my form later to see where I put my hands.

Let's talk Olympic bars ..
The starting points for where center and outer knurling depend on individual bar design. Most bars have grip marks though. Two marks exist. One at 32" and another at 36". Some bars just have one, some have both. I forget what the 32" and 36" marks represent. They are standard marks though. All bars should have them on the same location. For bench press, I always have my ring fingers on the 32" marks. One finger left/right will target slightly different muscles.

KIA, relative to these marks, where do you place your hands? Do you have your hands straight relative to the forearm?

I'll have to keep an eye on my hand position but I try to keep my wrists strait as possible.

The bar I use is a standard olympic barbell, it only has 1 set of rings. I'm 6 feet tall and my arm span is a little over 6 feet and I have my pinky right on the rings and raise my elbows behind me at around 45 degree angle.

For bench press, I have the EXACT same hand placement except I wrap my thumb around the bar, obviously.

I'll be squatting tonight after work and try all the helpful advice.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Yeah, actually nix what I said about the grip. I lied about mine. I'm way inside the knurling. Sorry about that.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

KIA,

I checked last night. Middle finger on the 32" marks. Pretty similar to my bench grip where my ring figner is on the 32" marks.

I couldn't check with load though. I'm recovering from a groin pull.

 

[CPA]

Again that is similar to what I experienced. One time after a heavy low bar squat session, my elbows/biceps hurt so much I couldn't grip anything. I couldn't even get my house keys out of my pocket to unlock my apartment door. I had to knock on my neighbors door and ask them to unlock it for me. Imagine how awkward that conversation was "Can you please reach in to my pocket and pull out my keys then unlock my front door? Thanks".

I really struggled with low bar squats for about a year, I was determined to fix my errors and make it work. I tried using all variations of wide and narrow hand positions on the bar but none helped. It wasn't an issue of shoulder mobility as I have always been a very flexible person, I can squat with my hands touching my shoulders or out touching the ends of the bar, both caused intense pain. My determination cost me about a years worth of progress on all lifts, my bench and OHP declined, I couldn't do chinups or powercleans anymore. My squat suffered also because I had to keep lowering the weight as my elbows got worse. About the only thing I could do was deadlifts when I got my grip back.

I don't think there is a detriment to using a high bar squat over a low bar squat, just add an extra set or two to your deadlift. I really like to work up to heavy sets of 3X3 instead of 5's, I find the lower reps helps prevent fatigue to my lower back.

My only suggestions on using a high bar squat is to not do the olympic dive bomb into the bottom position, but use a controlled slower descent. And to use pause squats on your warmup sets, it really helps loosen up your hips and helps imprint the more vertical back position in to your muscle memory.

Are your hands on top of the bar or below? I'm not sure how a low bar squat would hurt your elbows if your hands are properly on top of the bar and elbows are high.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Are your hands on top of the bar or below? I'm not sure how a low bar squat would hurt your elbows if your hands are properly on top of the bar and elbows are high.

If not well controlled, it can cause a valgus force on the elbow, which is not a movement that the elbow is built to perform. It causes over stretching of the ligaments on the inside of the elbow joint, which is likely what caused him discomfort. That or his ulnar nerve.

 

[thescreensavers]

 

[rga]

I always thought the bar was supposed to sit below the spine of the scapula for a low bar squat. That picture makes the bar look like its sitting above it.

/shrug

 

[Pr0d1gy]

My tip is don't do squats if you value your knees at all.

 

[thescreensavers]

I always thought the bar was supposed to sit below the spine of the scapula for a low bar squat. That picture makes the bar look like its sitting above it.

/shrug

The book (Starting Strength) and screen shot from Rippletoe's Video above, all say to put it there On Delts, with you elbows back there is a pocket. A High bar position is on the Traps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_UjunJj-dw&feature=related

My tip is don't do squats if you value your knees at all.

In Starting Strength look under Squat Depth – Safety and Importance

The full squat is the preferred lower-body exercise for safety as well as for athletic strength. The squat, when performed correctly, not only is the safest leg exercise for the knees, but also produces more stable knees than any other leg exercise does. Correctly is deep, with hips dropping below level with the top of the patellas (see Figure 2-1). Correctly is therefore full range of motion.

Rippetoe, Mark (2012-01-13). Starting Strength (Kindle Locations 495-498). The Aasgaard Company. Kindle Edition.

He goes on and says that people have the wrong back angle and do not go deep enough have knee problems.

A partial squat done with an upright torso and vertical back angle is typical of most people’s attempts to squat, because we have all been told that the back must be vertical to reduce shear, the sliding forces that occur along a segment in rotation. Shear between the vertebral segments is supposed to somehow disarticulate your spine, despite the fact that this cannot and has not ever occurred. But in a misinformed effort to protect the back, this advice results in a lot of unnecessary stress on the knees. As we’ve already discussed, however, the vertical back angle fails to fully load the hamstrings. Therefore, they cannot exert the posterior force needed to oppose and balance the anterior force exerted by the quadriceps and their attachments to the front of the tibia, below the knee. (In other words, there’s no force pulling backwards to balance the forces that are pulling the knees and tibias forward.) The result is an actual anterior shear on the knee. And like a front squat, the partial squat also forces the knees quite forward of the mid-foot – much more so than the low-bar squat form we will be using, which keeps the knees back and uses the hips as the primary mover of the load. This lack of posterior support produces an anterior-dominant force distribution on the knee: the further back the hips are, the more hip muscle you use, and the further forward the knees, the more quad you use. Many cases of patellar tendinitis have been caused by this incorrect squat technique. Even when partial squats are done with the correct back angle, they fail to work the full range of motion and therefore fail to perform to their potential as an exercise.