Help me with my car situation... (Ford related) EDIT: UPDATE 6/27

[beer]

OK, for starters, read here for all the background:

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=440360&highlight_key=y&keyword1=new%20engine

Now the update since that: When flushing the radiator, there was a loss of pressure. They diagnosed this as a cracked head gasket and authorized a replacement engine. However, a couple of things bothered me and my dad about this. #1) The biggest cause of a head gasket problem is overheating. This is common with my Contour because they used plastic blades in the water pump. Well I'm pretty observant and I didn't see it overheating. Furthermore my dad took it in to the dealership and he did not notice anything, and that's almost a 45 minute drive. Therefore I can conclude we were not overheating. And it it had been a cracked gasket, there would have been smoke or other unusual byproducts in the exhaust. Were there? Nope. And it gets better.

They replaced the engine. They were getting misfires. So they replaced two cylinders that were causing the problem, or so they thought, and that did not solve anything. So they replaced all the ignition wiring. No go. They replaced the computer. No go.

Last Friday they replaced the replacement engine with a new engine. And frankly the lady who I talk with said that if this does not work they don't have a clue.

The car has about 35,750 miles on it. Warranty expires 6/15, although I would get a two year extention on all the replacement parts. They have given my dad a rental car and I've been driving my dad's Taurus, but it is still inconvenient.

BTW, the car's estimated trade in value is about 8,000. Alone the parts and labor already put into it total more than $10,000. Two engine blocks at $3700 each, plus wiring and a $400 computer, and already 3 weeks worth of labor, at $60/hr. I know the parts are given in MSRP price but still that's a lot of money Ford has spent, especially in labor.

If they cannot get it working, they can't just keep replacing things, can they? Do I have any recourse? They've had my car for over 3 weeks already.

EDIT: TWO WEEKS LATER

The third engine put in didn't work. So, they replaced the wiring harness. Didn't work. They then decided to check my fuel - fuel checked out OK, only issue was some metal flakes at the bottom of the tank (normal). They are now insisting on putting in a fuel pump and new fuel filter. But I can guarantee these are NOT the problems. The car runs fine after it warms up for half an hour. A fuel pump problem would not be intermittent like that. They are also bringing down a senior Ford engineer to look at it. They now have had my car for over five weeks.

I jokingly told my service contact that "While you're at it, can you replace my transmission, my alternator, and take the dent out of the side?" (in a joking voice). That's really all they have left to do before I have a whole new car. lol

What should I do at this point?

 

[JohnnyKnoxville]

Wow sounds like monkeys are working on your car changing parts without doing any diagnosing to see where the problem lies.Oh well its their money so don't worry about it.In certain states there are lemon laws and after a certain amount of repairs for the same problem ,they can be legally forced to buy back your car at full value.Check your options.

 

[beer]

I came here to see my options. I haven't been able to get a straight, consistant answer from anyone. I haven't even brought that up with them yet - if this 3rd engine doesn't work, I will. Most lemon laws that I'm familiar with expire after about six months.

LMK

 

[Nutdotnet]

You may want to talk to someone other than computer nerds if you want a straight answer!

Actually Johnny hit it on the head. You should find out what the local lemon law is in your area. If that doesn't work don't worry about it. Yes, YOU CAN have them keep replacing things until it gets fixed, that is why you have the warranty. It is thier problem that they cannot figure out what is going on, not yours.

 

[VirginiaDonkey]

and also, keep every scrap of documentation you have relating to this problem. reason is, after the car clicks over that magic 36,000 mark, they are still obligated to fix it because you presented the problem to them prior to the warranty expiring.
They may hope to get it out the door long enough to have you make it past that, only to tell you "this part isnt under warranty" when it dies on you again.
Dont be a door mat, if you have to go into the showroom on a busy day and complain about the piss poor service in a voice loud enough for nosey folks to conveniently overhear....it works

good luck!

 

[beer]

Nutdonet -

However, something doesn't seem right about them doing that. I really don't want to have a car that's been gutted several times. Especially if they keep replacing things after this 3rd engine.

 

[beer]

<< and also, keep every scrap of documentation you have relating to this problem. reason is, after the car clicks over that magic 36,000 mark, they are still obligated to fix it because you presented the problem to them prior to the warranty expiring.
They may hope to get it out the door long enough to have you make it past that, only to tell you &quot;this part isnt under warranty&quot; when it dies on you again.
Dont be a door mat, if you have to go into the showroom on a busy day and complain about the piss poor service in a voice loud enough for nosey folks to conveniently overhear....it works

good luck! >>



I'm about ready to do the showroom thing if this isn't resolved fast.

BTW - did I forget to mention that my contact has stopped returning mine, and my dad's, calls, from today and Friday? Sure we call every day but it only takes two minuts to tell us how it is going. That really pissed him off.

 

[Soybomb]

<< And it it had been a cracked gasket, there would have been smoke or other unusual byproducts in the exhaust. Were there? Nope. And it gets better. >>

Not that you would have seen necessarily. If you didn't do a compression test or a leakdown test, I'd believe them.



<< So they replaced two cylinders that were causing the problem >>

How do you replace a cylinder? I think you need to take a mechanically inclined friend with you to try and dig whats really up here as to me it doesnt sound like you've got the complete story, or the story isn't accurate.

 

[beer]

This is word for word what she told me.

I have no clue about cars. I can wash it, change the oil, and that's it. I will get more into cars once I get something decent to start from - a 98 inline 4 130 HP automatic doesn't give me much to do. It's slower than a civic and has no aftermarket.

 

[perry]

If they are charging $3700 for a new engine then someone is getting ripped off. A new computer costs $250 as quoted from a Ford dealer around me. Oh, and the plastic impeller blades are on the Duratec, not the Zetec. There is no common water pump problem on the Zetec engines. Mine has 80,000 miles on it and is running strong.

They probably replaced the spark plugs in the cylinders that were causing the misfire. I would almost be willing to bet that they didn't put the spark plug wires back on the coil pack in the right order. It can be confusing and has changed on Zetec Contours over the years, IIRC.

3 weeks is not nearly enough time for the lemon law to kick in. I can't figure out what state you are in or I would go look it up for ya. Click here and look it up. If you were in Georgia, you would be out of luck with the age of your car.

What kind of aftermarket do you want? Tell me the part and I can probably tell you where to find it. It's not as strong as the 5 liter Mustang aftermarket, but it's there. You just have to know where to look.

3 weeks is nothing. I know a guy here in Atlanta that has been without his SVT Contour for 7 weeks. First engine had a dead #1 cylinder and they can't find another. It's just sitting there gathering dust right now.

 

[beer]

Actually Perry, doing my own research, in Texas if the car has been in repairs for 30 cumulative days then it qualifies under the Lemon Law. OTOH that's only for the first 24,000 miles.

 

[Nutdotnet]

Um, you cannot replace a Cylinder. Cylinders are forged into the block. You can replace the pistons, crankshaft, camshaft, valves, etc...etc...but you cannot replace a Cylinder. You can machine a cylinder, but again that does not replace it.

Either you misunderstood her (which I hope is the case) or she is feeding you the biggest line of BS I have ever heard of. Kind of like when a mechanic tells you you need to replace the blinker fluid.

I compleltey understand you sentiments about being not too happy about taking it back. If they are unable to get it fixed after this next &quot;repair&quot; or whatever you are doing you NEED to speak with a manager. A high-level manager too. Not just some lame-o sales manager or service manager. You need to speak with one of the head-cheeses.

Play hardball too. Don't get angry, just state how you feel about what has happened and what you want done about it. If they are unwilling to cooperate tell them that you are going to write to Ford Motor Co. about this situation and the dealership. If that does not work you may have grounds to take them to court.

Do whatever is going to make you happy. But leave on your reasonable terms, not theirs.

 

[perry]

<< Actually Perry, doing my own research, in Texas if the car has been in repairs for 30 cumulative days then it qualifies under the Lemon Law. OTOH that's only for the first 24,000 miles. >>



Yea, you're not gunna be covered by the lemon law then.

Go to the dealer, talk to the general manager of the dealership and ask about your car. If he can't help you out, ask him for the Zone Rep's phone number. His ears should perk up real quick like.

gotey is right about the documentation. I took my car in for a squeaky driver's seat at 35,500 miles. Told them they couldn't keep the car for several days but I just wanted the problem documented and when they got the parts in I would setup an appointment. Took the car back with over 37,000 on it and they fixed the problem, no hassle. Since you already have it in there they get to keep trying to fix the problem until it's done right. As long as you got the loaner don't worry. Better to rack up miles on their car then yours, huh?

Here ya go. Check this post. Lots of contact names at Ford. The first one should especially be of interest to you. Maybe drop his name when you talk to the general manager... &quot;Yea, I was thinking of giving Harold Allen a call but I figured I'd talk to you first and see what you have to say...blah blah blah. Fix my car biznitch!&quot;

 

[Brutuskend]

did they do a fuel injection check?
that would be the FIRST thing I would think is causing the trouble!

 

[beer]

any more ideas

 

[colossus]

Another example of how the Ford Dealerships try to make money at the expense of the FMC. The dealership doesn't lose any money as all work is covered by Ford itself. In fact the dealership has just made $10k off you

Go to the regional manager for Ford and let him know of this activity. They'll investigate the dealership.

I've found our last 3 Fords to be very reliable as long as they stay away from the dealership. The crooks there will screw with anything and everything on your car to make a buck at the expense of your time. I have 4 outstanding recalls on my Contour and don't plan to get them worked on by a Ford dealership. Since Ford won't allow an outside shop to repair the &quot;bad parts&quot;, I just have my regular mechanic check up them every now and then.

Good luck getting it resolved. Remember, getting corporate Ford on your side would be a good option here.

 

[Emulex]

Contact ford customer relations. There are lemon laws, and they will get it straightened out.

Btw i'd be pretty happy to get a whole new motor under warranty

 

[Tominator]

It's under warranty and you get the warranty extended for 2 more years on the motor at no cost.

Loaner car at no charge.

I cannot see how ANY Lemon Law could apply.

Give the Dealer time to sort it out.

BTW, in some engines cylinder liners are used. Normally the engine is an alloy block with steel or iron liners. I'm not sure of this motor, but it is possible to 'change the cylinders.'

I'd be patient and although the whole thing is troublesome, you will end up with a new motor and a car that will probably go to the 100,000 mile mark with no other problems.

 

[beer]

Except that, like Johnny said, if they're basically monkeys working on my car and can't FIND the problem, what good does a computer and an engine do me when the car still stalls when idle?

 

[zzz234]

<< Um, you cannot replace a Cylinder. Cylinders are forged into the block. >>



Not on most modern cars. Nowadays the cylinder is separate from the block.

 

[Pacfanweb]

<<Another example of how the Ford Dealerships try to make money at the expense of the FMC. The dealership doesn't lose any money as all work is covered by Ford itself. In fact the dealership has just made $10k off you >>

Well, if this isn't the dumbest statement I've read on these forums, it's definitely in the top three. You obviously have absolutely no clue how Ford warranty works, or how it constantly screws the dealerships. If you think Ford is just paying them every bit of time they spend on this car, you're crazy. They most certainly are not, and the tech(s) are likely losing big time.
Also, they haven't been working on the car 8 hrs a day for 3 weeks straight. Whomever is doing the work is likely spending most of his time working on other cars while waiting parts, etc.


<<Here ya go. Check this post. Lots of contact names at Ford. The first one should especially be of interest to you. Maybe drop his name when you talk to the general manager... &quot;Yea, I was thinking of giving Harold Allen a call but I figured I'd talk to you first and see what you have to say...blah blah blah. Fix my car biznitch!&quot; >>

Those are FoMoCo employees, but I'm pretty sure none of them are dealer service reps. The dealer your car is at probably won't even know who the Allen guy is. You can't call the local Ford rep directly....the dealer has to call him/her on your behalf and set it up.
But what's the rep going to do? Fix your car for them? Hardly.
The dealer is handling things properly, giving you a loaner and doing their best to fix your car.
I can just about guarantee they are not just changing parts blindly. Almost certainly they are in contact with Ford technical hotline engineers and those guys are likely calling the shots at this point. Problem with that is, some of the engineers couldn't fix a sandwich if you gave him 2 slices of bread with mayo already on it.

Sometimes there is no easy way to fix a car. I have seen many, many cars with problems that nobody could fix, no pinpoint test in the manual could lead you to the problem, nothing made sense, and the only way you ever fixed it was by stumbling onto something by accident.
It sounds like your car may be one. I can't vouch for how competent the techs there are, since I don't know them, but it sounds like they are proceeding in the proper manner.

As far as your options go, I will generalize, but I need to know a few things: Did you buy your car from the dealer that is working on it? Was it one of THEIR rental cars before?
Do you have it serviced there? Have you or your dad purchased cars there before?
Assuming you have, that helps. If they don't resolve the problem soon, they do have some recourse through Ford to get you help. It is possible to get Ford to offer some trade assistance in extreme cases, but being a 2nd owner hurts.
Most lemon laws I'm aware of apply only during the first 24 months/24k miles.

I'd say give them some more time, then maybe look into asking them for other options.

DO NOT go in there and raise hell. That will only hurt your chances of them helping. Firm is good, but yelling is bad, mmmkay?
On the bright side, if the do get it fixed, you'll have a new engine and a couple of years warranty on it.
You also may want to consider purchasing an ESP plan while it's in the shop....you are eligible to buy one from Ford as long as it's still under the original factory warranty. There are 4 levels.....get one of the top 2. They can range all the way up to 100k miles.

LMK how it's doing in a few days and I'll see if there is anything else that can be done.

 

[stanger]

obvious signs of a blown headgasket is coolant in the oil, black oily film in the radiator, white smoke coming from exhaust ay all times, and coolant blowing out of the recovery bottle....... have you had them check the EGR valve? a bad egr valve the car will start/idle fairly well but as soon as you put it under load like putting it in gear and apply the gas it will stall out
stanger

 

[perry]

<< Those are FoMoCo employees, but I'm pretty sure none of them are dealer service reps. The dealer your car is at probably won't even know who the Allen guy is. You can't call the local Ford rep directly....the dealer has to call him/her on your behalf and set it up.
But what's the rep going to do? Fix your car for them? Hardly.
>>



And have you ever dealt with Ford in a situation like this? When there is a problem with a dealer that the dealer is unable/unwilling to rectify then Ford gets involved. The Zone/Region reps work for Ford. The general manager at the dealership will know who he is. The Zone rep may not be able to fix the car but he can at least get in contact with engineers that the average Joe may not be able to. You can call the guy directly. He may not like it but what's he going to do? Hang up on you so that you write a letter to Uncle Jack about how rude his zone reps are? I think not. He'll listen and give you ideas on what you can do to get the car fixed.

My friend that has been without his SVT for seven weeks now is in touch with a guy that works for SVT up in Michigan. We're in Atlanta. The guy up in Michigan is searching for an engine for him because the dealer was pretty much exhausted their resources. It does help that the SVT guy frequents our forums...

But basically, right now the only thing you can do is wait. They'll get it right or they'll get plopping new engines in there.

If you do buy that ESP warranty, shop around. Any Ford dealer in the nation can sell you one on your car and they can set the prices on them. I can probably find cheap sources for em if you're interested.

 

[beer]

<< As far as your options go, I will generalize, but I need to know a few things: Did you buy your car from the dealer that is working on it? Was it one of THEIR rental cars before?
Do you have it serviced there? Have you or your dad purchased cars there before?
Assuming you have, that helps. If they don't resolve the problem soon, they do have some recourse through Ford to get you help. It is possible to get Ford to offer some trade assistance in extreme cases, but being a 2nd owner hurts.
Most lemon laws I'm aware of apply only during the first 24 months/24k miles. >>



No, this model was not bought from this dealership. It was bought from another local dealership becuase this dealership didn't have one with low enough miles. Although yes, the two other fords my family has were bought there, and ever since day 1 all 3 have been serviced there - mostly because it is convenient for my dad.

No word today.

I have been very kind to my contact, as has my dad. However, even though they have done everything to make it right (free, better loaner, etc), it still isn't the same. For example, I LOVE the handling on my contour, compared to it my dad's Taurus feels like a tank (although that Duratec is nicer than my Zetec, for sure, considerably). But on the whole I'm just not as comfortable as I could be.

I realize they're doing their best though.

 

[notfred]

I dont see them giving you a brand new engine for free as a problem.
Also - do you mean cracked head? cause they wouldn't replace the engine for a blown gasket.

also - you cant just replace 1 (or 2)cylinder in an engine block. It's pretty much all or nothing.