Help me understand my own view on Abortion

[judasmachine]

I don't think I could ever ask a woman to have an abortion. I think it's disgusting except in a few extreme cases. However I believe my say matters little, while it's still part my child, I cannot say much about what she does to her body. I feel that conciousness doesn't start until fairly late in the pregnency after the brain is well developed. But trust me, I would never even suggest anyone get an abortion.


That all being said, the "Pro-Life" movement is lead by people I can never agree with. I believe there is morality w/o the heavenly babysitter watching us with his stern eye. I don't believe in the hording of wealth, nor do I give a crap about nationalism. I also deplore war, as I see it as nothing more than a really late term abortion.

So I cannot in good concious vote right wing even if I do thing abortion is totally wrong. I know this is going to sound like some lefty claiming to have morals and all, and I guess in a way it is just that. But I truly want to know what you guys think. I am also not about to vote based on a single issue, as that usually leads to other problems and conflicts within myself.

 

[dmcowen674]

You can never be a true Neocon.

 

[daveshel]

There is a big difference between being in favor of abortion and being opposed to the government being involved in it. I think the majority of the country feels this way.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You can never be a true Neocon.

Aww darn, and I always wanted to be that.............. [pout]


Seriously though, this really kind of bothers me. I guess I end up in the don't say anything crowd and let the individual choose, and just do not do it myself.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: daveshel
There is a big difference between being in favor of abortion and being opposed to the government being involved in it. I think the majority of the country feels this way.

Being pro-choice is not the same thing as being in favor of abortion. One can be personally against abortion yet allow others to make their own personal decision as well. The idea that "I am against abortion so everyone else should be against abortion as well.", imo, seems the pinnacle of arrogance. For some reason, the Christian right -- the primary proponents of anti-abortion laws -- don't seem to understand that nobody is forcing them to ever have an abortion if they don't want one. That's part of what "Pro-Choice" is about too.

Basically, there are two alternatives in regards to the legality of abortion - You can either be pro-choice or no-choice. My preference is the former.

 

[Red Dawn]

I'm pro choice and I would hope that the woman would choose life but it's her decision, not mine nor the governments.

 

[pilgrim2u]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I don't think I could ever ask a woman to have an abortion.
So I cannot in good concious vote right wing even if I do thing abortion is totally wrong.

Go down to an abortion clinic. Ask to hold a womans hand as they slice and dice a baby apart and then suck the body parts out a tube and watch the bones and flesh go down the drain. Now keep holding that womans hand as her legs are apart never letting go :-( Remember the sounds, the smell of an abortion

Tell us then...how easy it is to be voting against the right wing :-(

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
You can never be a true Neocon.

Aww darn, and I always wanted to be that.............. [pout]

Seriously though, this really kind of bothers me. I guess I end up in the don't say anything crowd and let the individual choose, and just do not do it myself.

Must be tough for many that want to vote Bush but don't agree with NO CHOICE since that is what the Neocons and Bush Regime are pushing.

But they'll vote for the Fearless Liar anyway. That's what happens with people that have No spine.

 

[cKGunslinger]

*shrug* I tend to go back and forth (or "flip-fliop," if you will) on this issue. I am personally against abortion and would always try to talk anyone I know out of it. I think that it is murder, but sometimes I wonder, "If that's what I think, why am I not totally outraged like some of pro-life people?" I mean, if it was legal to kill your 2-year-old child, I think I'd be pretty worked up over it and could relate to death-threats to doctors and such, but why don't I feel that way currently? It's a very complex and polarizing issue, I guess. I'm all for individual rights, but I just don't understand how a mid-to-late term fetus doesn't seem to get those rights.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: pilgrim2u

Originally posted by: judasmachine
I don't think I could ever ask a woman to have an abortion.
So I cannot in good concious vote right wing even if I do thing abortion is totally wrong.

Go down to an abortion clinic. Ask to hold a womans hand as they slice and dice a baby apart and then suck the body parts out a tube and watch the bones and flesh go down the drain. Now keep holding that womans hand as her legs are apart never letting go :-( Remember the sounds, the smell of an abortion

Tell us then...how easy it is to be voting against the right wing :-(

Ahhh, appeals to squeamishness. A frequent tactic of the anti-abortion and anti-war crowds.

Supposedly visiting a slaughterhouse will make one a vegetarian as well. I've been to one and it didn't prevent me from grilling up a nice juicy porterhouse for the wife and I last night.

 

[DT4K]

Seems clear to me. If you truly don't believe that you or anyone else should have the right to restrict a woman's ability to choose an abortion, then you are clearly with the pro-choice crowd. There are varying degrees of opinions among pro-choice people. Some think there's nothing wrong with abortion at all. Some find it disturbing but still feel it comes down to personal choice.

"However I believe my say matters little, while it's still part my child, I cannot say much about what she does to her body."

If you believe that all that is involved is "her body", then I'm not sure why you have any negative feelings about abortion. Personally, I believe it is not just "her body". I believe it is another human being. Well, I don't just believe it, obviously it is another human being. The question is whether you believe this human being should be considered a "person" and at what point he/she has a right to live. Some believe this "right to life" should not be granted until the baby is born. I believe that there is no moral difference between killing a human being the day before it would be born and the day after it is born. It is the exact same baby. The only difference is that it has left the womb and now relies on oxygen and food provided by the mother through it's mouth and lungs instead of through the umbilical cord. The earlier you go in pregnancy, the more blurry it gets. For instance, I don't believe that taking the morning after pill is equivalent to killing a newborn baby and I would never call someone who took it a murderer. So I'm not sure where the line should be drawn. I just believe that it should be drawn a lot earlier than birth.

This statement does seem pretty uneducated but I guess it depends on your definition of consciousness and your definition of "late":
"I feel that conciousness doesn't start until fairly late in the pregnency after the brain is well developed. "

By 5 weeks gestation, there is a beating heart. By 8 weeks, brainwaves can be measured. By 10 weeks, the heart is fully developed. By 12 weeks, the vocal chords are complete, crying movements can be seen, the brain is fully developed and the fetus may suck it's thumb. By 20 weeks, the baby has a decent chance of survival outside the womb.

Oh, and remember that although much of the pro-life movement is based on religious beliefs, that doesn't mean you have to be religious to be opposed to abortion. I am not a religious person at all.

 

[cKGunslinger]

So, what exactly is the current rule? I was thinking it was only legal in the cases of rape. incest, life of mother, etc. I guess that's not the case, as I remember my wife telling me about her friend from high school who had 2 done simply because she already had 2 kids and couldn't afford any more.

 

[judasmachine]

I guess I do fit in with the conscientious pro-choice crowd. I know if I ever went to an abortion clinic, I'd be very depressed. But something about big brother bothers me...alot. I have known 4 women who have had abortions now. 2 were teenagers whose religious right parents were embarrassed and forced their daughters into it. One was an exgirlfriend of mine (not my child) who was just undecided in her views, and I think the guilt from it drove her to religion. The fourth is the poster child for the religious right's arguement, she did it because she just didn't want to have a kid. But these people run the full spectrum of political beliefs, and they all did it whether it was through coercion or not.

I also want to state that I'm 29 and I still feel like I'm 17 discovering all this stuff for the first time and still very much question my own beliefs. I'm groping for understanding here, and feel very naive.

 

[pilgrim2u]

[/quote]
Ahhh, appeals to squeamishness. A frequent tactic of the anti-abortion and anti-war crowds.

Supposedly visiting a slaughterhouse will make one a vegetarian as well. I've been to one and it didn't prevent me from grilling up a nice juicy porterhouse for the wife and I last night.[/quote]

So you have first hand watching an abortion or having an abortion?
What was it like the "partial birth abortion" It did not scare you that collapsing head being sucked dry?

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: daveshel
There is a big difference between being in favor of abortion and being opposed to the government being involved in it. I think the majority of the country feels this way.

Being pro-choice is not the same thing as being in favor of abortion. One can be personally against abortion yet allow others to make their own personal decision as well. The idea that "I am against abortion so everyone else should be against abortion as well.", imo, seems the pinnacle of arrogance. For some reason, the Christian right -- the primary proponents of anti-abortion laws -- don't seem to understand that nobody is forcing them to ever have an abortion if they don't want one. That's part of what "Pro-Choice" is about too.

Basically, there are two alternatives in regards to the legality of abortion - You can either be pro-choice or no-choice. My preference is the former.

My post probably already made the point, but it is not about arrogance or religion. The whole "forcing my beliefs down you throat" thing is a flawed argument. Beliefs about what is right and wrong are forced down our throat all the fvcking time. Why am I not allowed to kill my own children? Why am I not allowed to smoke crack whenever I want?

If you decided to legalize murder, I would fully understand that nobody was forcing me to commit murder, but I would still think it should be illegal. Why? Because I would want to "force" my beliefs on everyone else.

The real issue should not be one about whether or not anyone has the right to impose their beliefs. It's obvious that we do that all the time with many of our laws. The real issue is whether or not abortion is wrong and whether it is wrong enough that we should make it illegal or put certain restrictions about it. If pro-choice people wanted to make an honest argument, they would stick to arguing about why abortion is NOT the same as murder and why they believe that a fetus should NOT have the same rights as a newborn baby. Those are arguments that have validity and get to the real point of the issue. Those are people who I can respectfully disagree with. People who keep going back to the "forcing moral beliefs" argument are just trying to sidestep the actual issue.

 

[BA]

You sound normal.

It's not an easy issue, and that's why it's so contentious. Whatever your opinion may be, the fact that you're actually thinking about it and that realize the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, means you're alright in my book.

(and also realize that asking people for their opinion, especially strangers, is usually just asking for trouble)

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Ahhh, appeals to squeamishness. A frequent tactic of the anti-abortion and anti-war crowds.

Supposedly visiting a slaughterhouse will make one a vegetarian as well. I've been to one and it didn't prevent me from grilling up a nice juicy porterhouse for the wife and I last night.

It is appealing to truth. If you can see what it is truly like and still support it, then fine. But supporting it without knowing what it really means and how it is actually done is being ignorant.

I've seen the footage of dead women and children in Iraq. Despite the disturbing nature of the photos, it has not changed my belief that the war was right. There is nothing wrong with wanting people to know the reality of what they are supporting. Far too many people are convinced by the pro-choice crowd that the fetus they are killing is nothing more than a few clumps of tissue. I think it's important for a person to see exactly what it is that they are choosing to kill. I don't understand why you would want to keep that hidden.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think that abortion presents us with an unresolvable moral dilemma. We have, I think, as humans, a profound ability to emphasize and to understand cause and effect. We know that a fertilized egg can become a human being and we can place into that egg all of our imaginative feeling. We can see our own consciousness potentially there. It is therefore a simple matter to conclude that killing that zygote is the same as killing you or me. This viewpoint is is absolutely appealing and alot of people stop right there.

But it is a freak of biology that humans have sex as a means to reproduce and an additional freak that there are two sexes. It is also a freak of fate that we are profoundly driven to have sex and that we cannot consciously control whether we become pregnant, that half of us that is female. It is odd therefore that the half that doesn't have to bear a child should have some say to the other half since they have none of the biological risk or consequence. In absolute terms also, there's no real difference in consciousness between a rock an amoeba and a fertilized egg. The difference is all in our feeling and because we project our humanity there.

So if we are to outlaw the practice of abortion we make women captive to a freak fact of nature because we ourselves can't escape the feeling that she is killing a person like you and me.

The answer to this irresolvable dilemma, in my opinion, is never to participate in a sex act with a person you would not want to spend your life with raising a child that even by accident result.

The problem, of course, is that we are powerfully driven to have sex and powerfully determined to blame. Some of us will allow no escape for people who make mistakes. Such people have chosen one moral absolute over another. They are completely trapped by the notion that life begins at conception and that abortion is the murder of one of them. Therefore they are willing to make women slaves and robotic birthing machines.

Their is no religious answer those who have created a human life out of an amoeba, but I think that is the secular is the only possible societally sensible answer. Abortion is a womans choice not to have a collection of cells with absolutely no awareness of life or death, no fear, no consciousness beyond a fingernail, turn into a human being she doesn't think she wants to raise. There is no human life there in the sense that self awareness makes life precious. The fetus is programmed to survive but it doesn't care if it does not. There is no sense of self there.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: pilgrim2u

Ahhh, appeals to squeamishness. A frequent tactic of the anti-abortion and anti-war crowds.

Supposedly visiting a slaughterhouse will make one a vegetarian as well. I've been to one and it didn't prevent me from grilling up a nice juicy porterhouse for the wife and I last night.[/quote]

So you have first hand watching an abortion or having an abortion?
What was it like the "partial birth abortion" It did not scare you that collapsing head being sucked dry?[/quote]
I've escorted two friends to abortions but was not allowed to view the procedure for "insurance reasons," the same reason they wouldn't permit me to watch the birth of my son (I got the impression what they really meant was "malpractice reasons;" in case anything went wrong they didn't care for witnesses). I used to do a bit of writing for the medical industry and have witnessed numerous medical procedures though. As someone who is not particularly squeamish, I doubt it would bother me.

Have you ever witnessed a birth? It's not the prettiest sight in the world either.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: DT4K

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: daveshel
There is a big difference between being in favor of abortion and being opposed to the government being involved in it. I think the majority of the country feels this way.

Being pro-choice is not the same thing as being in favor of abortion. One can be personally against abortion yet allow others to make their own personal decision as well. The idea that "I am against abortion so everyone else should be against abortion as well.", imo, seems the pinnacle of arrogance. For some reason, the Christian right -- the primary proponents of anti-abortion laws -- don't seem to understand that nobody is forcing them to ever have an abortion if they don't want one. That's part of what "Pro-Choice" is about too.

Basically, there are two alternatives in regards to the legality of abortion - You can either be pro-choice or no-choice. My preference is the former.

My post probably already made the point, but it is not about arrogance or religion. The whole "forcing my beliefs down you throat" thing is a flawed argument. Beliefs about what is right and wrong are forced down our throat all the fvcking time. Why am I not allowed to kill my own children? Why am I not allowed to smoke crack whenever I want?

If you decided to legalize murder, I would fully understand that nobody was forcing me to commit murder, but I would still think it should be illegal. Why? Because I would want to "force" my beliefs on everyone else.

The real issue should not be one about whether or not anyone has the right to impose their beliefs. It's obvious that we do that all the time with many of our laws. The real issue is whether or not abortion is wrong and whether it is wrong enough that we should make it illegal or put certain restrictions about it. If pro-choice people wanted to make an honest argument, they would stick to arguing about why abortion is NOT the same as murder and why they believe that a fetus should NOT have the same rights as a newborn baby. Those are arguments that have validity and get to the real point of the issue. Those are people who I can respectfully disagree with. People who keep going back to the "forcing moral beliefs" argument are just trying to sidestep the actual issue.

Wow. Are you new to P&N? I've never noticed you here befroe today, but you seem to have some well-formed, rational arguments. (*stops flirting and gets back on topic*)

I agree that the 'heart of the matter" is often overlooked by pro-choice supporters, IMO. Either the fetus is a human and has a right to life or it is not and does not. This has really nothing to do with religion or anything other than this crux.

It also bothers me a bit when the same people who support a woman's right to choose seem to support very silly, contradictory things. For example, a few weeks back we had that thread about that guy who was putting a bullet in the heads of puppies, because he couldn't find them a good home and couldn't take care of them all. Some people in here were calling for that guy's head on a platter (and I think he was charged with a felony for animal cruelty, or something over-the-top like that.) But some of those same people think it's a woman's right ot be able to choose to end her child's life, even on a whim. It defies logic, to me.

Of course, in that same thread, I think I did proclaim that anyone who compared the puppy-killing to the abortion issue was a dumbass, in advance. Maybe I should have put a statute of limitations on that, for my benefit.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

something about big brother bothers me...alot.

:thumbsup:

 

[lordtyranus]

Abortion is needed to control the population of the poor.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Wow. Are you new to P&N? I've never noticed you here befroe today, but you seem to have some well-formed, rational arguments. (*stops flirting and gets back on topic*)

I stick mostly to OT. A couple times a year, I get the strange urge to come argue in P&N. It usually becomes frustrating beyond belief after a week or so and I swear off P&N and go back to OT where there are just as many crazy people but the topics are less controversial.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: DT4K
My post probably already made the point, but it is not about arrogance or religion.

Abortion is not about arrogance or religion. The abortion issue is because the anti-abortion meme is primarily driven by religious ideologies. Christians are, in effect, trying to force their ideology as law upon everyone.

The whole "forcing my beliefs down you throat" thing is a flawed argument. Beliefs about what is right and wrong are forced down our throat all the fvcking time. Why am I not allowed to kill my own children? Why am I not allowed to smoke crack whenever I want?

The difference is that the majority believe that killing your children or smoking crack is wrong, and there are laws to dissuade one from doing so. You know what though? It still doesn't stop people from smoking crack or killing their children. Just as making abortion illegal will not stop women from having abortions. It'll only make abortions more dangerous by returning them to the back allys.

If you decided to legalize murder, I would fully understand that nobody was forcing me to commit murder, but I would still think it should be illegal. Why? Because I would want to "force" my beliefs on everyone else.

I would agree that murder is and should be illegal. I would also agree that a fetus that's well into the second or third trimester should not be aborted. However, imo, the point of conception does not create a human being. It creates a lump of cells that has the potential to become a human being. That clump cannot survive outside the womb by itself. There is a point to where abortion can be performed and should not be considered murder.

The real issue should not be one about whether or not anyone has the right to impose their beliefs. It's obvious that we do that all the time with many of our laws. The real issue is whether or not abortion is wrong and whether it is wrong enough that we should make it illegal or put certain restrictions about it. If pro-choice people wanted to make an honest argument, they would stick to arguing about why abortion is NOT the same as murder and why they believe that a fetus should NOT have the same rights as a newborn baby. Those are arguments that have validity and get to the real point of the issue. Those are people who I can respectfully disagree with. People who keep going back to the "forcing moral beliefs" argument are just trying to sidestep the actual issue.

See above.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think that abortion presents us with an unresolvable moral dilemma. We have, I think, as humans, a profound ability to emphasize and to understand cause and effect. We know that a fertilized egg can become a human being and we can place into that egg all of our imaginative feeling. We can see our own consciousness potentially there. It is therefore a simple matter to conclude that killing that zygote is the same as killing you or me. This viewpoint is is absolutely appealing and alot of people stop right there.

But it is a freak of biology that humans have sex as a means to reproduce and an additional freak that there are two sexes. It is also a freak of fate that we are profoundly driven to have sex and that we cannot consciously control whether we become pregnant, that half of us that is female. It is odd therefore that the half that doesn't have to bear a child should have some say to the other half since they have none of the biological risk or consequence. In absolute terms also, there's no real difference in consciousness between a rock an amoeba and a fertilized egg. The difference is all in our feeling and because we project our humanity there.

So if we are to outlaw the practice of abortion we make women captive to a freak fact of nature because we ourselves can't escape the feeling that she is killing a person like you and me.

The answer to this irresolvable dilemma, in my opinion, is never to participate in a sex act with a person you would not want to spend your life with raising a child that even by accident result.

The problem, of course, is that we are powerfully driven to have sex and powerfully determined to blame. Some of us will allow no escape for people who make mistakes. Such people have chosen one moral absolute over another. They are completely trapped by the notion that life begins at conception and that abortion is the murder of one of them. Therefore they are willing to make women slaves and robotic birthing machines.

Their is no religious answer those who have created a human life out of an amoeba, but I think that is the secular is the only possible societally sensible answer. Abortion is a womans choice not to have a collection of cells with absolutely no awareness of life or death, no fear, no consciousness beyond a fingernail, turn into a human being she doesn't think she wants to raise. There is no human life there in the sense that self awareness makes life precious. The fetus is programmed to survive but it doesn't care if it does not. There is no sense of self there.

Wow, a moonie post that even I can actually read and understand.

Since you say that a fetus doesn't care if it survives or not and has no sense of self, can you tell me at what point it gains the right to life?
Birth, 1 year, 2 years, ???