help me prove that bullet proof vests are not stab proof :)

[ZippyDan]

necessarily

despite my experience in the area, a friend of mine refuses to take my word that a bullet proof (resistant) vest is not necessarily stab proof

i need an authoritative website (no angelfire sites thx) that:

1. discusses how a ballistic vest stops a bullet, in detail
2. discusses why most fiber based ballistic vests are not effective against piercing attacks

thanks

his reasoning of course is that anything that can stop a bullet traveling at tremendous speeds should obviously be able to stop a knife or the like traveling at a much slower speed. ive tried explaining how a bullet is caught in a web of fibers and the usually softer lead mushrooms while the small knife point with usually stronger metal can pierce between fibers and the edges slice through them, but im doing a poor job explaining and he doesnt believe me i think ive also read something about the heat of the bullet (high velocity friction) plays a role (melting?) that a slow blade wont, but im not sure on that point...

 

[FoBoT]

duh
they aren't designed to stop blades. you need body armor rated for both
go back to google school, you suck at the google

http://www.firstdefense.com/html/Stab-P...ice_Law_Enforcement_PoliceSupplies.htm

A round penetrator like an awl, ice pick, or nail has an extremely small tip. It does not have to break fibers - it simply pushes them apart and slips through to penetrate your body. A knife poses a totally different problem. Once its tip penetrates, the cutting edge slices through loosely woven ballistic fibers, reducing drag, to penetrate your body.

http://www.securityprousa.com/stabproofvests.html

http://www.securityprousa.com/splstandbupr.html

"This vest offers bullet and knife proof protection"

 

[bradruth]

I don't have the proof that you're looking for, but you're right. They're meant to absorb trauma, not prevent sharp objects from penetrating.

 

[danklumpp]

If he doesn't believe what you've explained, I don't know if he'll believe an authorative website.

 

[brunswickite]

prove it by stabbing him

 

[Nebor]

AFAIK they do provide decent protection against stabbing.

 

[ZippyDan]

ooo that reminds me i remember recently reading about two stupid kids who tried on a bullet proof vest and then tried stabbing each other and ended up in the hospital. anyone have a link to that news article, that would be great too

 

[Zim Hosein]

Originally posted by: brunswickite
prove it by stabbing him

QFT!

 

[ZippyDan]

Originally posted by: brunswickite
prove it by stabbing him

hahaha

 

[darkswordsman17]

Originally posted by: ZippyDan
necessarily

despite my experience in the area, a friend of mine refuses to take my word that a bullet proof (resistant) vest is not necessarily stab proof

i need an authoritative website (no angelfire sites thx) that:

1. discusses how a ballistic vest stops a bullet, in detail
2. discusses why most fiber based ballistic vests are not effective against piercing attacks

thanks

his reasoning of course is that anything that can stop a bullet traveling at tremendous speeds should obviously be able to stop a knife or the like traveling at a much slower speed. ive tried explaining how a bullet is caught in a web of fibers and the usually softer lead mushrooms while the small knife point with usually stronger metal can pierce between fibers and the edges slice through them, but im doing a poor job explaining and he doesnt believe me i think ive also read something about the heat of the bullet (high velocity friction) plays a role (melting?) that a slow blade wont, but im not sure on that point...

Well, there are metal plates placed in between the material, so that area would likely be able to prevent much damage from a knife.

I think you're both right.

The vests are designed to stop bullets, and will certainly do that better than stopping a knife, however they would do a much better job of stopping a knife than normal material. I would say you could probably be stabbed easier wearing a vest though due to the heavier weight and it would limit your mobility, and someone could easily just stab you in the side

 

[Shadowknight]

I have a high-end fencing jacket made of ballistic nylon. It's supposed to HELP an opponents blade slide off in the case it breaks. But if it doesn't you will get a very nasty stab wound.

 

[FoBoT]

you should get one of these too

http://www.securityprousa.com/tabaleiiima.html

Tactical Ballistic Mask level III A

This one of a kind ballistic mask,it was developed for special ops teams to save lives while engaging the enemy. It provide shock element and can save your face from fragments and level IIIA ballistic threats.

 

[Gibsons]

Text

The bad
news is that flechettes penetrate todays aramid fiber body
armors.

it's talking about flechettes, not knives, but the general point should get across to even the dullest of people.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Stab-Resistance-Levels.shtml

 

[ZippyDan]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
duh
they aren't designed to stop blades. you need body armor rated for both
go back to google school, you suck at the google

http://www.firstdefense.com/html/Stab-P...ice_Law_Enforcement_PoliceSupplies.htm

thx, i already came across that exact site using google, its one of the first results.

1. its not authoritative. looks like it was designed in frontpage 97
2. does not clearly describe how bullet resistant vests work and why they are not good at resisting knife attacks

surely it gets the gist of the message, but im trying to end an argument with a stubborn individual, thanks

 

[ZippyDan]

Well, there are metal plates placed in between the material, so that area would likely be able to prevent much damage from a knife.

there are not metal (or ceramic) plates in all bullet resistant vests. those are usually called trauma or shock plates and they are standard on all military armor in adition to bullet resistant materials. those vests probably would stob a knife attack, but the point my friend is contending is that any bullet resistant vest can naturally stop a knife, which is false

also, from wikipedia:

"Some vests are also designed to protect against knife attacks as well. This is done by coating the outer surface of the vest with tiny crystals of a sandpaper-like material or placing a very thin plate of resin hardened glass-fibre sheet between the kevlar layers."

again this implies that normal bullet proof vests suck at protecting against knife attacks, but it doesnt just come right out and say it, nor does it sat WHY they suck. also, wiki entries can be suspect

 

[ZippyDan]

btw, i have already googled around. i cant find anything yet that is clear and to the point. and while i appreciate most of the links so far, most of them only IMPLY what i am trying to be very SPECIFIC about

 

[FoBoT]

if the dude is that stubborn, your only course of action is to.... STAB HIM!

 

[Gibsons]

http://www.dupont.ca/protectiveapparel/pa_pdf/H-77878--KEVLARCorrectional.pdf

first all fabric vests to pass the "icepick test" meaning other all-fabric vests did not pass...

 

[bradruth]

Originally posted by: darkswordsman17
Well, there are metal plates placed in between the material, so that area would likely be able to prevent much damage from a knife.

I think you're both right.

The vests are designed to stop bullets, and will certainly do that better than stopping a knife, however they would do a much better job of stopping a knife than normal material. I would say you could probably be stabbed easier wearing a vest though due to the heavier weight and it would limit your mobility, and someone could easily just stab you in the side

Incorrect. As mentioned above, the plates you're referring to are add-ins and are not standard in body armor. My kevlar vest came with a soft trama plate (an add-in sheet of kevlar designed to lower trauma by ~10% to the chest).

The added weight and restrictions on mobility aren't that bad when you get used to it. Certainly not to the level of easily being stabbed in the side, where there is also kevlar "protection."

 

[ZippyDan]

Originally posted by: Gibsons
http://www.dupont.ca/protectiveapparel/pa_pdf/H-77878--KEVLARCorrectional.pdf

first all fabric vests to pass the "icepick test" meaning other all-fabric vests did not pass...

already found that too. again its only implied, also doesnt explain the hows and whys

 

[ZippyDan]

still need a good information link link to that recent news article about kids stabbing each other thru bulletproof vests would be neat too

i was disappointed that pretty good descriptions of bullet proof vests like howstuffworks.com dont bother to address stabbing at all

 

[ondarkness]

worst idea ever....

 

[NiKeFiDO]

just tell him to fsck off, your right, he's wrong. in fact, show him this thread.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: ZippyDan

Well, there are metal plates placed in between the material, so that area would likely be able to prevent much damage from a knife.

again this implies that normal bullet proof vests suck at protecting against knife attacks, but it doesnt just come right out and say it, nor does it sat WHY they suck. also, wiki entries can be suspect

1. Change it to say what you want.
2. Show your friend what it says as definitive proof
3. Don't tell him anyone who wants to can change it.
4. Change it back later.